The Palantiri

The use of language in general makes it more difficult for incarnate beings to use ósanwe, apparently, so we can definitely make this 'not a thing.' But....it specifically would still exist in the case of close friendship, kinship, and great need....I think this points to Fingon and Maedhros as two people who should definitely be able to make use of this ability.

I've been wondering for some time how Fingolfin's host is going to find out they've been abandoned - are they going to be able to see the burning of the ships across the ocean? I realize it's further north and the shores are closer together, and that elves have better vision, and that the world isn't round yet (so no curvature to block the view). But still. It doesn't seem possible....but if Maedhros is able to let Fingon know that the ships are being burnt...well, that's one option.
 
I kind of like the Idea of the Palantiri being in use by the Elves before the Númenoreans, but they have to be used very carefully and that entire Palantir-thing shouldn#t be overdone.
 
Either the Quenta Silmarillion or the Annals of Aman do specify that Fingolfin's host could see the red of the burning ships, and thus knew they were betrayed.

I agree that neither the Noldor nor Morgoth can credibly have palantiri during the war in Beleriand, or the narrative becomes an idiot plot. I like the suggestion that Feanor at Finwe's suggestion gives some to the Teleri, and keeps many for himself. At Formenos Morgoth may have stolen them but Ungoliante ate them when she quarrelled with Morgoth.... but the Noldor didn't know that they had been eaten. Feanor wants Olwe to surrender all the palantir at Alqualonde, in addition to his ships, and in his pride he assumes he could master a palantir no matter how many Morgoth still holds. But the Teleri hide them and he gets none.

In the last version of the Quenta Silmarillion, the sack of Formenos and killing of Finwe is narrated to Manwe by Maedhros (who has no idea his father is listening). The sons of Feanor don't know what the shadow of Ungoliante was, but I think they knew Melkor was Finwe's slayer. Then Feanor becomes so upset that when he runs off into the night, people are afraid he might commit suicide.

I had the impression that palantiri could not simply be destroyed... but maybe it was left ambiguous.

In the Grey Annals Melian did not put the Girdle around Doriath until the First Battle, when Morgoth's Orcs killed Denethor and besieged the Havens. Before then there was not much need. Orcs were rare in Beleriand. So maybe Finwe could have looked in on his old friend, but could not easily communicate with him.
 
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Dredging this up with, maybe, a dumb question.

Is there a more... certain source for Feanor creating the palantiri than Gandalf's wishy-washy "Feanor himself, maybe, wrought them..."?

That "maybe"...

Is there somewhere other than that passage with the Rhyme of Lore in Two Towers that is more definitive and less hesitant?
 
There is an allusion to them in the Silmarillion itself:

Published Silmarillion, page 64, Second Edition, Houghton Mifflin Company: "...and other crystals he made also, wherein things far away could be seen small but clear, as with the eyes of the eagles of Manwe. Seldom were the hands and mind of Feanor at rest."
 
It's in my mind because of last week's HoME lecture, where we can see the palantiri being invented out of the ether in front of our eyes.

Was that "crystals" passage in the PubSil from a time before the writing of Two Towers and we have linked the two after-the-fact?

(I'm certainly not making the argument that Feanor did NOT create the seeing stones. Just noticed that it's one of those things that we all know, and yet the main piece of evidence for it is a "maybe".)
 
The corresponding chapter in the 1937 Quenta does not mention the blue lamps or seeing-crystals, nor even have a paragraph corresponding to that one. The Annals written in the later 30s don't mention them either. So I think the idea must have been added after writing the LotR.
 
Faelivrin said:
The corresponding chapter in the 1937 Quenta does not mention the blue lamps or seeing-crystals, nor even have a paragraph corresponding to that one. The Annals written in the later 30s don't mention them either. So I think the idea must have been added after writing the LotR.
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So which version should we use?
 
Oh, I know that *we* are doing it. Because we all know that's how it happened.

Speaking personally, Gandalf's "maybe" never once registered to me until my most recent relisten to the audiobook, at which time I really started to wonder, for the first time, if there was another definitive source. Which it kinda sounds like there isn't, but there are at least a couple independent... suggestions that it is likely.
 
Can we make the creation of the Palantiri a joint effort or at least something Feanor did with Curufin? I was listening to the script writers this morning and they brought up how Curufin is the 'mini-father,' but we don't have him creating anything. If Feanor invents them, perhals Curufin is the only one talented enough to help him make others.
 
cellardur said:
Can we make the creation of the Palantiri a joint effort or at least something Feanor did with Curufin? I was listening to the script writers this morning and they brought up how Curufin is the 'mini-father,' but we don't have him creating anything. If Feanor invents them, perhals Curufin is the only one talented enough to help him make others.
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Would we have the smaller ones first, then Curufin helps make larger, more powerful ones (the Osgiliath palantir), or the larger ones first and Curufin manages to downsize them so they can be carried?
 
amysrevenge said:
Oh, I know that *we* are doing it. Because we all know that's how it happened.

Speaking personally, Gandalf's "maybe" never once registered to me until my most recent relisten to the audiobook, at which time I really started to wonder, for the first time, if there was another definitive source. Which it kinda sounds like there isn't, but there are at least a couple independent... suggestions that it is likely.
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I get it. There seemed to be some others asking about what "should" be done.

cellardur said:
Can we make the creation of the Palantiri a joint effort or at least something Feanor did with Curufin? I was listening to the script writers this morning and they brought up how Curufin is the 'mini-father,' but we don't have him creating anything. If Feanor invents them, perhals Curufin is the only one talented enough to help him make others.
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Ange1e4e5 said:
Would we have the smaller ones first, then Curufin helps make larger, more powerful ones (the Osgiliath palantir), or the larger ones first and Curufin manages to downsize them so they can be carried?
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So, we had the palantiri made while Curufin was still pretty young, and we have Feanor moving on to Silmarils in the very next episode, so I'm not sure this would work. Curufin's closeness with his father will definitely be displayed in his attitudes and thought processes.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
Would we have the smaller ones first, then Curufin helps make larger, more powerful ones (the Osgiliath palantir), or the larger ones first and Curufin manages to downsize them so they can be carried?
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Nicholas Palazzo said:
So, we had the palantiri made while Curufin was still pretty young, and we have Feanor moving on to Silmarils in the very next episode, so I'm not sure this would work. Curufin's closeness with his father will definitely be displayed in his attitudes and thought processes.
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It's up to the writers and the host to decide. I personally would have liked for Curufin to improve on the Palantiri, to emphasis just how skilled he is. He may not be Feanor, but he must be one of the greatest artisans ever, only surpassed by his father and son.

In the Shibboleth, Curufin is like Feanor in virtually every including personality, thought process and looks as you said, but also in talent. He out of all the sons has Feanor's talent to a considerable degree, though obviously not as great as his father.
 
cellardur said:
It's up to the writers and the host to decide. I personally would have liked for Curufin to improve on the Palantiri, to emphasis just how skilled he is. He may not be Feanor, but he must be one of the greatest artisans ever, only surpassed by his father and son.

In the Shibboleth, Curufin is like Feanor in virtually every including personality, thought process and looks as you said, but also in talent. He out of all the sons has Feanor's talent to a considerable degree, though obviously not as great as his father.
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I wouldn't say he's like his father in personality. Feanor's more Leeroy Jenkins, while Curufin is shown making a complex plot involving a Uriah Gambit and forced marriage.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
I wouldn't say he's like his father in personality. Feanor's more Leeroy Jenkins, while Curufin is shown making a complex plot involving a Uriah Gambit and forced marriage.
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I don't know much abut Leeroy Jenkins, but when it comes to using marriage to get what you want, there are those rumours about why he really married Nerdanel. I joke about that.

The Shibboleth has this to say.

(Curufin) Kurufinwe Feanor's own name: given to this his favourite son, because he alone showed in some degree the same temper and talents. He also resembled Feanor very much in face.

Atarinke (Little Father) - referring to his physical likesness to Feanor, later found to be also seen in his mind.

These are just notes and Curufin is not Feanor's clone, but the two of them are very similar and very close in the text.
 
I take it that Curufin inherited his father's skill in oratory. We are certainly never told about anything that he crafted, though we could invent something. He carries a dwarf-made knife, at any rate. If Curufin has the ability to make palantiri, then they must be made of some substance only found in Valinor, or else he would make more in Middle-earth.
 
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