Session 1.9

Phillip Menzies

Phillip Menzies

Moderator
Staff member
Questions for Session 1.9 - Episode 7 (Establishment of Valinor) to be aired on Friday 4th December 2015
    • How should the relationship between Melkor and the other Valar progress?

    • Which Valinorian plot-lines should be worked on in this episode? Consider Osse’s rebellion, Aule and the dwarves, Yavanna and the Ents and Eagles, Varda and the constellations + prophecy of the Firstborn.
As always please refer to the overarching season 1 notes from Session 1.1 at http://silmfilm.mythgard.org/episode-1-1-plot-overview/ and the last Session 1.8 in your deliberations on these questions.
 
I'm not sure what happened with Melkor after the destruction of the Lamps but there should be some feeling that he isn't completely innocent and if there isn't open hostility from at least Tulkas, then not far from it. They might not believe that he has masterminded the attack, but they could think he has caused it. The main thing should be the Valar deciding to leave Middle Earth for Valinor, and the shaping of the lands there. The building of Taniquetil, for instance. (Perhaps it is when he first looks upon Middle Earth from Taniquetil, aided by Varda, that Manwë sees the darker shadow in the north that Melkor has been spreading. )
And maybe Ulmo, Uinen and Ossë all have various degrees of complaints about the Valar leaving. Ossë could see it as a crime, a betrayal, and maybe Melkor is giving him ideas along those lines. Ulmo, on the other hand, could try to talk some sense into him.
We also need to see Melkor and the balrogs.
 
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There is really just one way to possibly spin the issue as not being attributed to Melkor short of REALLY underlining the fact that the Valar are completely and totally naive; and that's to have the Valar basically not really know each other very well at all, and have Melkor be one of MANY suspects who might be at fault for the Lamp's destruction. Having the audience see the Ainulindale from the very beginning kind of hamstrings us, I think, because they will absolutely know after the dischord at the foot of the Throne of Iluvatar who the "big bad" is. That means that if we're going to build tension on this point, it would really have to be in suggesting that one of the Valar might be sympathetic to Melkor's cause. That shouldn't be a tremendous problem, since we ought to show Melkor seducing the various Maiar to his cause. I feel like 3 episodes is proooobably enough time to do that in? But that means Episode 7 would have to spend a lot of time showing the Valar being suspicious of one another in Melkor's absence, with them sorting out their differences and coming together to build Valinor in a single hour, unless we wanted that to span through Osse's rebellion? After looking at the Episode breakdown, I guess the denouement of Osse's repentance would be a great way to wrap up that plot line.

Does that sound good? Several Valar are suspected of being in league with Melkor, culminating in Osse's rebellion?

Edit: It seems to me that Melkor really can't be hanging around the Valar after the throwing down of the Lamps. In the actual story, I believe he retreats to Utumno, and there isn't really any question about who's responsible. Furthermore, it seems very much in Melkor's style to do his mischief and then abscond immediately, it's pretty much how he does everything else scummy in his long and infamous career.
 
There will be some challenge to make the creation of Almarin look/feel different than the creation of Valinor. One way to do this is to make Almarin be entirely inhabited by prehistoric/extinct creatures, or at the very least 'wild' plants and animals only. The beasts of horn and hide leave the door open for dinosaurs, if we want them. And then with Valinor comes domesticated things - Oromë gets Nahar and the first horses and cattle appear, dogs and cats show up, fields are planted, and rather than building the new source of light (Aule/Melkor and the Lamps), this time Yavanna sings/grows the Two Trees.

I am not sure how many Valinorean plotlines we need to carry us over to Aulë and the dwarves, but the rebellion of Ossë needs to happen here at some point. Before or after the Two Trees?

I imagine that this is a good time to have a bit more happening in the frame. We've minimized the frame for the past few episodes (with no discussion of much happening there), so time for an interaction with these characters outside of Estel's lessons.

And why is this session happening tonight?!
 
MithLuin said:
There will be some challenge to make the creation of Almarin look/feel different than the creation of Valinor. One way to do this is to make Almarin be entirely inhabited by prehistoric/extinct creatures, or at the very least 'wild' plants and animals only. The beasts of horn and hide leave the door open for dinosaurs, if we want them. And then with Valinor comes domesticated things - Oromë gets Nahar and the first horses and cattle appear, dogs and cats show up, fields are planted, and rather than building the new source of light (Aule/Melkor and the Lamps), this time Yavanna sings/grows the Two Trees.

I am not sure how many Valinorean plotlines we need to carry us over to Aulë and the dwarves, but the rebellion of Ossë needs to happen here at some point. Before or after the Two Trees?

I imagine that this is a good time to have a bit more happening in the frame. We've minimized the frame for the past few episodes (with no discussion of much happening there), so time for an interaction with these characters outside of Estel's lessons.

And why is this session happening tonight?!
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Apparently it's not a Silmarillion film session but an episode of Riddles in the dark.
 
No, thankfully the next one is still next Friday morning. They are just tossing a few extra 'Riddles in the Dark' sessions in to discuss the final release of the extended edition of the final Hobbit film.

As ouzaru points out, Melkor will be absent in Utumno during this time (right?). But Melkor clearly does not just sit in Utumno biding his time, as he is out recruiting Ossë and no doubt causing mischief.

The guilt/suspicion seems to have fallen to the balrogs, but pretty much everyone knows that Melkor is fairly guilty of the disharmony. So, the tension among the Valar remaining to go off to found Valinor...would be the suspicion that some of their number are still loyal to Melkor and would possibly be recruited to his cause, etc. This would lead into the fall/repentance of Ossë and the near-fall of Aulë. I think that suspicion could easily fall on Ulmo, as he is such a loner and does his own thing. The Valar who clearly do not abandon Middle Earth are Ulmo and Oromë, and to a lesser extent Yavanna.
I don't really like the idea of the Valar mistrusting each other. I am hoping that, really, we'd have a disagreement about what should be done over Melkor's obvious problem. Some of them might want to confront him directly, using force to constrain him (ie, war!), while others may be more of the opinion that if everyone just keeps to their own devices, everything will be fine, just fine, really....

Another plot point that needs to happen during these next few episodes would be the introduction of Mandos and Lorien. Námo and Irmo should be fairly minor characters prior to this - with Námo declaring Manwë to be their leader in episode 2, and then mostly staying out of the squabbling when Melkor tries to take charge, re-emerging as an important figure later on with the prophecy of the coming of the Children. One of his character traits is to never explain anything, merely make statements of truth that his listeners might not understand. So putting the emphasis on Irmo now might be a good plan. But anyway, so now we have domains for these two (and their wives), and we can maybe give some explanation of why they are SO tied to their lands that their names are synonymous now.... We can also introduce Melian and Olorin with Irmo and Este. Perhaps the 'peace of Valinor' can be represented by their quiet gardens, in direct contrast to Ossë's chaotic and violent rebellion? Uinen should be instrumental in winning Ossë back to the good side, of course.

By the time we reach the creation of the eagles and ents, ALL of the minor characters should be introduced. We can't be introducing more characters as we move into the War and the finale. So, who do we have playing key roles in this season thus far?

Episode 1 - Ainulindale - Introduction of characters, but doesn't count because it's really a brief introduction of Arda. Introduction of frame characters: Elrond, Gilraen, young Estel.
Episode 2 - Shaping Arda - Introduction of major Valar = Manwë, Varda, Aulë, Yavanna, Ulmo, Námo...and? Should include Nienna and Oromë to round out the Aratar.
Episode 3 - Melkor's backstory - Melkor, of course, with some emphasis on Varda and possibly introducing the Valaraukar (balrogs)
Episode 4 - Melkor among the Valar - introduce Sauron/Mairon now to show that switching allegiance is possible. Curumo stays loyal of course.
Episode 5 - The one where Ungoliant kidnaps Nessa - Tulkas, Nessa, Ungoliant as major characters
Episode 6 - Destruction of the Lamps - Balrogs and Arien should be key players
Episode 7 - Valinor, pt 1 - Ossë, Uinen, Lorien, Estë, Olorin, Melian?
Episode 8 - Valinor, pt 2 - If Yavanna hasn't lit the Trees yet, she really should!
Episode 9 - Aulë, put that hammer down!
Episode 10 - Eagles and Ents
Episode 11 - Prophesy
Episode 12 - And so, we shall go to war
Episode 13 - War to Begin All Wars

Who do we need who hasn't been introduced yet? For instance, does Oromë have Huan yet? Oromë has his big time in the spotlight in season 2, but he should surely be around as a background character in much of this. Will Eonwë just sorta be.....there? We haven't even barely mentioned some of the Valier yet. I am not suggesting they need a whole episode or story arc or anything....but they do need to be there: Vana (Oromë's wife, the Ever-Young
), Estë (Irmo/Lorien's wife, Vala of Rest, she mostly sleeps on an island in Lorien, so......), Vairë the weaver, wife of Námo/Mandos who has elements of the Fates about her. We are investing a good deal of screen time in introducing Nessa, one of the Valier who will (potentially) have no further role in this story. Should we be instead investing in Nienna?
 
If you're not comfortable with the Valar mistrusting one another, then we can't really have any confusion about who's responsible for the lamps. Even if it's as simple a matter of accusing people within a given Valar's ranks, there's still going to be some dissension and arguing, or else we all just know that Melkor acted alone, or with the help of his accompanying Maiar, which kind of ruins the tension for the remainder of the season because he spends a LOT of time off in Utumno, something like six entire episodes (Destruction of the Lamps is Ep. 6, Chaining of Melkor is Episode 13). Obviously we can't keep the camera off him for that amount of time, but the majority of what goes on in the first season following the Lamps is drama of various kinds between the Valar themselves.

The question of animals really does need to be hammered out completely. What's up and walking the plains of Arda? What are the beasts of horn and hide? Let's start seeing some fun stuff! I'm talking some proboscideans, here!

Episode 2 really does need to at least give a cursory introduction of ALL the Valar, we can't be introducing people piecemeal as they become relevant to the story. The focus can be on the characters that are doing the action, but I think we should do our best to say "these are the major players" right up front. And yes, if they got a name, we should be introducing them in that episode. There's no reason why their roles can't be expanded or further shrunk down, but if they got a mention in the Silmarillion, they out to get at least that in the adaptation.
 
The decision in the most recent session was that the Valar would not know for sure that Melkor was to blame. Arien would be an eyewitness, so the idea was that she could report that he did *not* order the attack, and that would throw some confusion into the mix.

I understand what you are saying, but realistically, we can't introduce everyone in Episode 2. They can be there, on screen, but we can't just do a data dump with 20 names all in one episode! If the viewer knows who the 8 main Valar are by the end of the episode, we're doing good. We also can't really show what each one's realm is because some of them are quite nebulous and would require more introduction than we have time for. That is why I was thinking that Irmo/Lórien could probably use a bit more of a formal introduction now that we've got to Valinor.

Here is our full cast of characters for Season 1:
Aratar: Manwë, Varda, Ulmo, Aulë, Yavanna, Oromë, Nienna, Námo(Mandos)
Lesser Valar: Tulkas, Nessa, Irmo(Lórien), Estë, Vairë, Vána
Maiar: Ossë, Uinen, Salmar, Eönwë, Ilmarë, Melian, Arien, Tilion, Curumo, Olórin, Aiwendil(Radagast), 2 blue wizards (if we want them....we probably don't except maybe a glimpse of two maiar in blue in a background shot as a really obscure Easter egg)
Enemies: Melkor, Gothmog + Valaraukar, Ungoliant, Mairon(Sauron)

Frame Story: Elrond, Gilraen, Estel (main), Thorin & Company (one brief cameo), Bilbo and Gandalf (2 cameos), Sons of Elrond (Elladan and Elrohir), members of Elrond's household.
 
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Ok so Arien's statement makes (some of) the Valar uncertain of Melkor's guilt? But they leave to establish Valinor, and Nelkor doesn't come along, because he has gone off to Utumno.
I think at least some of the Valar should want to bring Melkor to trial. Tulkas and Oromë, at least.

I'm wondering about this Ossë story we are suggesting. Is it possible to introduce Ossë this episode, and make it interesting that this Maiar is taking Melkor's side (it seems openly debateable whether he has done anything wrong) and then cram in the arc of his rebellion and repentance? When is he coming back? Is it worth it? Just want to ask the question...

My favourite subject is of course Saruman vs. Sauron... How do they react to the new situation? Is this when Sauron openly takes Melkor's side? I think Aulë's group is useful to show some schism, or at least difference of opinion. If there is a debate about Melkor's guilt, and perhaps about bringing him to some kind of trial to hear him explain, Sauron could volunteer to go and find him and try to persuade him to come and speak for himself. He might actually have other plans.
 
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Posting several days late, due to internet issues.


In the last session, the hosts seemed to go back and forth over whether Ungoliant's interest in Nessa would depict Ungoliant as a Psycho Lesbian (or a Depraved Bisexual). At one point, they said they wouldn't play up the sexual dimension, but then later they referred to Ungoliant as a "sexual predator," which suggests they would play it up, after all.

My issue with this scenario is not that depicting the only lesbian character we see on the show (even if she's just coded gay) and her homosexual attraction as creepy, dangerous, and, indeed, the first example of true evil in all Middle-earth – since Melkor hasn't fallen yet – is "controversial." My issue is that queer people are already seen as creepy, dangerous, and inherently evil in much of the US and elsewhere in the world, and that is, bluntly, incredibly f***ed up. Both as a straight ally politically, and as someone with several queer loved ones (some of the most dear of whom queer women) personally, I find the scenario problematic, and the hosts' conversation didn't reassure me "Oh, it won't be like that."

I'm not arguing the show should be queer-inclusive (though if someone else wants to make that argument, I'll probably support it). However, if we are going to include queer characters or themes, I ask that we please not support stereotypes which demonize my loved ones and numerous others because of their sexual orientation/gender identity.


Now, as for the next two episodes – first of all, thank you, MithLuin for the episode and major character breakdowns, that's really helpful.

And while I take your point about Nessa not being a major character, I feel like she gets under-served in Episode 5 with her rescue from Ungoliant, because we don't really get a chance to see her in her element. Perhaps we can see her dancing and bringing joy kind of in the background in Episodes 7 & 8, maybe foregrounding her in a couple of shots, just to give the viewers a sense of her role among the Ainur.

I'd still also like to see a bit of Nessa and Tulkas together as a couple, maybe working together on a project. If, say, the project had to do with establishing Irmo/Lórien's realm, it would be a way to weave that introduction into events depicted in the previous episodes. This would probably be best in Episode 7, the one immediately after the destruction of the lamps and Nessa and Tulkas' wedding.

Episode 7 also gives us an excellent opportunity to foreground Nienna at the beginning: we could imagine a lot of the Maia and maybe some of the Vala are really bummed out at the destruction of the lamps, and we can show how Nienna's mourning comforts them and helps them move on.

I agree with the idea of bringing in the framing story, which might also give a rationale for introducing a bunch of vignettes in Episodes 7 and 8, though I'm not sure exactly how. However, I think we can once again dip into this well when it comes to addressing why the Vala didn't immediately just go and sort out Melkor after the destruction of the lamps. Episode 7 could begin with him asking that very question, and Elrond saying, “Well, let me tell you …”


In terms of Ossë's rebellion, I agree that it's awkward since Melkor isn't a confirmed enemy at this point. On the other hand, I really hate to scrap that storyline, as Ossë is the only character I can think of in the entire Middle-earth oeuvre who is redeemed after falling. (Aulë doesn't count - he takes the first step towards falling, gets a lecture from Iluvatar, and immediately pulls back.) I think this is a place which calls for a little judicious reworking of the source material.

Two options come to mind: 1.) instead of throwing in with Melkor, Ossë joins some other evil character and is redeemed. The problem here is that the only other evil character we have who isn't directly associated with Melkor is Ungoliant, and I have a difficult time seeing Ossë join her. Then again, we've already seen her tempt Nessa and fail in Episode 5 - maybe in Episode 7, she tempts Ossë and succeeds.

Option 2.) we draw out Ossë's fall a bit. In Episode 7 or 8, for whatever reason, he goes to join Melkor, and we follow the trajectory of their mutual falls over the next couple of episodes. Then we come to the big climax in Episode 13, where the Valar go to war with Melkor - and Ossë. There can be a confrontation scene where Melkor is given the opportunity to repent (by Manwë, Varda, or maybe Nienna), and refuses. Later, there can be a parallel scene where Ossë is given a chance to repent, and accepts (we'd have to show him being conflicted about his fall over the previous several episodes, to make this turn around plausible). A few sessions ago, Corey said that the overarching theme of this season should be hope, so having one of the Ainur get redeemed towards the end of the season finale would be a good way to reinforce that theme.
 
I've addressed this in another thread, but I think that we can easily portray Ungoliant's "desire" for Nessa as bestial rather than sexual. While the words "sexual predator" might have been poorly chosen on the part of the hosts, I do not believe they intended it as more than a simile. It is amazingly difficult for the modern mind to conceive of a desire beyond mere sexuality. The simple image of a person eating is so easily given a sexual theme by modern viewers, it astounds me. I also feel that neither the hosts, nor anyone here has the intent of demonizing homosexuals, even if they do not agree with their lifestyles.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
While the words "sexual predator" might have been poorly chosen on the part of the hosts, I do not believe they intended it as more than a simile.
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I hope you're right that's all it was; I admit there can be a certain amount of ambiguity in these discussions.

I agree there are non-sexual ways to play this scenario; however, as you point out, modern culture has a tendency to read sexual undertones to just about anything. That's why I think it's important, if we're not playing up that angle, to take great care ensuring any sexual reading is something the audience are bringing to it, not something that's hinted at in the show itself, if you see the distinction.

I didn't mean to suggest that anyone here would intentionally demonize people on the basis of their sexual orientation (don't see what lifestyle has to do with it, pretty much all the queer people I know lead lifestyles indistinguishable from their heterosexual counterparts). However, something I've learned about stereotypes - whether based on race, gender, disability, sexual orientation, nationality, what have you - is that people often slip into perpetuating those stereotypes without meaning to, especially if the person in question doesn't belong to the group being stereotyped. Good intentions will only take you so far, which is why I think this scenario needs to be handled with a high level of sensitivity.
 
I can see the next few episodes getting into PJ territory. One of my criticisms of the Hobbit movies was the way the characterisations were changed and then the same events happened (as in the book) which meant that motivations were completely different and often made nonsense of the actual events. If the hosts are saying that the destruction of the lamps was not Melkor's doing (maybe a bit), it then makes a huge leap that by the end of the season the Valar are willing to lock him away for an age, just in case he decides to do anything else mischievous. We can't at this point just forget about Melkor sitting in Utumno until the final episode. I hope the last session made mention of the famous wrestle between Melkor and Tulkas where Melkor eludes him and escapes (in hindsight, I'm not sure where I got this idea of a wrestle between these two, but I like it. It will also up the enmity between Melkor and Tulkas). I think this match will be crucial in reinforcing Melkor's downwards trajectory and be the beginning of his voicing of his dislike of specific Valar and him stewing and ruminating on the injustice done to him over the whole lamps issue. This should also be the beginning of his speaking openly against the Valar and Manwe's leadership and him starting to recruit others to his cause. I think it has to lead to the threat of open rebellion and fighting words about usurping Manwe. Melkor has a long way to fall before he can be in a position for the Valar to see him as a threat to the world and to jeopardise the hope of a viable place for the children of Iluvatar to reside. I think this period has to be where the beasts of tusk and ivory come in as the corruption begins to flow out from Utumno and affect the surrounding flora and fauna.

I think we should leave the two trees until the episode after and this episode focus on the fortification of Valinor and the raising of Taniquetil, and not until they feel safe do they cast their mind towards how they will live which includes light. I think the ripple effect from the last episode (destruction of the lamps) should be continuing turmoil in Arda but now under the sea with Ulmo and Osse to show that Valinor is not the only realm in Arda. This and the next episode could work as a 2 parter as Osse's rebellion builds from this the first episode, Melkor's influence spreads, the two trees grow in the 2nd part and we don't get the beginning of the bliss of Valinor until the end of the 2nd part.

In terms of the frame maybe this can be the first time Estel gets to leave Rivendell and goes to visit an elf ruin from the time of Arnor which had to be abandoned in the time of the Witch King of Angmar. The parallel could be made of how sometimes what we love can be destroyed but with resilience we can rebuild (ie Rivendell) something that far outshines the original.
 
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Lincoln Alpern said:
I didn't mean to suggest that anyone here would intentionally demonize people on the basis of their sexual orientation (don't see what lifestyle has to do with it, pretty much all the queer people I know lead lifestyles indistinguishable from their heterosexual counterparts). However, something I've learned about stereotypes - whether based on race, gender, disability, sexual orientation, nationality, what have you - is that people often slip into perpetuating those stereotypes without meaning to, especially if the person in question doesn't belong to the group being stereotyped. Good intentions will only take you so far, which is why I think this scenario needs to be handled with a high level of sensitivity.
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Their lifestyles are distinguishable in that they are not heterosexual. What I am saying is that we should not be writing heavy-handed 'morality' tales, especially when they are built around events that are not in the original text and especially ones that are still considered very controversial today. I think it is a fairly simple matter to not have the assault and abduction of Nessa be of a sexual nature.

Moving on, I do think that Philip's suggestion of including the wrestling match between Tulkas and Melkor is important. Perhaps Melkor could attempt to flee Almaren after the destruction of the lamps and Tulkas could chase him down to confront him. Tulkas could have Melkor overpowered when Melkor confesses to his part. Tulkas could have a 'Heroic Blue Screen of Death' moment (see TvTropes.org), allowing Melkor to make good his escape.
 
So, uh... stuff happened in here yesterday.

I don't have time to get into much, I just wanted to point out that if Osse is going to be one of our main "did he or didn't he" points of contention as far as aiding and abetting Melkor, then he absolutely needs to be part of the action well before the lamps actually topple. It's haphazard and clumsy to go "oh, the lamps have fallen, who could be responsible, is it the bad guy we already know about or is it this other guy who appeared in this episode! Stay tuned and find out!". There's been some discussion of Ulmo being under suspicion, which I like. Should we split the roster into clear camps of "in the clear" and "under suspicion"? Should it be a simple matter of "Well, we were all hanging out when it went down, so it couldn't have been any of us"? Is that maybe kind of ridiculous considering the power the Valar have?

Just stuff that was on my mind taking a quick glance at the recent replies, I'll parse everything and add something more worthwhile after work today.
 
Some of your comments have forced me to rethink a little. For instance, I like Phillip's idea that we could have a story about Ossë if we make it stretch into the next episode. I'm not sure how this is to be done though.
Regarding Melkor, my view is based on this passage from the published Silmarillion (it's just after the attack on the lamps):
“In the confusion and the darkness Melkor escaped, though fear fell upon him; for above the roaring of the seas he heard the voice of Manwë as a mighty wind, and the earth trembled beneath the feet of Tulkas. But he came to Utumno ere Tulkas could overtake him; and there he lay hid. And the Valar could not at that time overcome him, for the greater part of their strength was needed to restrain the tumults of the Earth, and to save from ruin all that could be saved of their labour; and afterwards they feared to rend the Earth again, until they knew where the Children of Ilúvatar were dwelling, who were yet to come in a time that was hidden from the Valar.”
We don't have that exact situation here. But (and again, I agree with Phillip) the wrestling and/or chase between Tulkas and Melkor is important. So for some of the Valar Melkor's guilt isn't an issue. They remember the Music and blame him, regardless of any testimony from Arien.
Most of the Valar and Maiar leave to establish Valinor. I agree that we should wait with the Trees. Now, some stay in Middle-earth. I suggest Yavanna, Oromë, Ulmo, Ossë and Uinen. At least they keep going there constantly. We should see at least Yavanna trying to heal and help. And maybe this is when Oromë gets Huan (as MithLuin hinted)? They could be seen exploring.
I think Melkor perhaps can actually be in hiding this episode. We could see him in Utumno, and the balrogs return to him, now in terrifying shapes. As he is hiding out of fear for Tulkas, this gives his confidence a boost, but it also serves to push him further along the path to evil. He realises that their new form is something he wanted somehow, although he didn't express it. And accepting these monsters as his servants has consequences. Accepting - and welcoming - the evil consequences of his wishes is his beginning to become evil.
 
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Some comments based on today's Session.

The Tulkas/Melkor confrontation has been saved for later, so at this point, Melkor is still standing there after the Lamps come tumbling down. Ulmo and Tulkas are angry with him, but it (apparently) does not come to blows....yet.

One suggestion is that Arien tries to *warn* of the attack, and the Valar are a bit confused why anyone would want to destroy the Lamps. So, then when it happens, Melkor can point the finger at her, and say, see, she's gone rogue. The idea being that while *one* of his Maiar could act on their own, if *all* of the balrogs do something, it makes Melkor guilty by association, even if he denies ordering the attack.

Melkor does not depart for Utumno until after the Valar (under Manwë's guidance) decide to leave for Valinor. He makes some kind of, 'no, stay here!!!' counter argument, and only some of the Maiar stay with him. This feeds his resentment, as he expects everyone to be his minion. Whether or not Sauron has defected to his side yet is an open question. Arien has defected *away* from his side. And I had completely forgotten about Thuringwethil, oops. The idea currently is to save Ossë's rebellion for later (so, not episode 7). But this does resolve the 'Manwë or Melkor?' tension that we saw building during the construction of the Lamps, and the majority of the Maiar are still loyal to Manwë (which comes as a rude shock to Melkor, who thought he had basically taken over).

Nienna finally has a role after the loss of the Lamps, and she is seen helping everyone process their grief. Also, Corey Olsen wanted to spotlight the creation of Lorien as a place of healing after the damage of the destruction of Almarin, but....a little weak on actual story. It was also mentioned that Vairë would be completely silent, and her tapestries would speak for her. There was some discussion of Oromë, as well, but it was just a 'he'll have hounds' conclusion, nothing in particular.

Manwë is not an idiot, and more than just suspects Melkor. But he's still hoping for a peaceful resolution, thinking the conflict can be talked out and everyone can be brought back to the same page. He doesn't realize that Melkor's split is final yet. Varda maybe does. There was a discussion of how innocent/naïve everyone is, considering this is a new world and there is no history of evil or lies or destruction. Disharmony has been, oh, hey, we just need to learn how to work together, yay! On that note, Nessa may not even be captured by Ungoliant, but just go with her willingly after meeting her, not knowing that she should have any reason to be afraid (until Ungoliant goes all Dementor and tries to suck her face off).

The lighting of the Trees (featuring Yavanna and Nienna) will be in Episode 8, so there is at least one episode between the lamps and the trees. The frame story comes back into prominence in this episode (7), since it's been quiet for a while (minimal intro/conclusion scenes of Elrond teaching Estel, maybe?), but now Gilraen comes back.



This summary has some of my own thoughts in it, and I missed parts of the discussion. So....not a true synopsis, but I tried to hit the highlights for those who are unable to listen since there is such a lag on the Session notes at this point.
 
Very much appreciated, MithLuin. I was out helping my brother look for a car and couldn't make the session, so having _something_ to work with makes it much easier.
 
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