Elf-magic

Haakon

Haakon

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From the Swan ships to Sam's rope, there are a range of elvish items and constructions that have properties that are significantly better than regular ones of the same type. We also see the elves use singing in a way that effects people or environment in a way songs usually don't. We see Legolas treading on snow without sinking through.
We've mentioned it in the forum a couple of times: elf-magic.

What is this magic? What do we call it (since the word magic seems to imply something else or at lest not exactly the same thing)? What is its nature? What form does it take?
How do we represent it in the series?

I can only say that I don't want something too obvious. I think most of you agree. I mean, no fireballs and total defying of gravity. Everything should mostly work within the common laws of nature - but with some improbable things happening as if they were very natural.
And then there's the special nature of song and music. That's something that's probably hard to do (I mean to show).
Any thoughts?
 
Presently reading the Kalevala, and there the magic is done by song. Väinämöinen for instance takes some sticks and sings him self a boat. Think Tolkien might have been influensed in his views by this. When duelling they sing against each other, either trying to stop the other's song (or song's effect), or by conjuring different animals against each other. The act of singing seems to be the important thing, not what words there were used, and that the will/ability of the singer.
 
The singing could be taken as somehow tuning in on the Music - or perhaps touching the Music within others? This could mean that Valar and Maiar in a way are more sensitive to 'song magic', since they actually have a memory of it, if that makes sense. That's a thought anyway. This would perhaps mean that the ones who possess the greatest 'magical' power are also those who are most susceptible to 'magic'. (Side track: As the Age of Men sets in later, there will be less beings with magical power but also less who are sensitive to it, and after a while, magic loses its importance).
So this explanation would have to do with closeness to the Music and Eru. But that doesn't seem to cover everything that's magical about elves.
 
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We will have to deal with song-as-magic-power early on - that is how Yavanna makes the Trees, after all. But we will also have to see the elf version of this before we get to the tale of Lúthien in Season 5. EVERYTHING Lúthien does involves song (and some dance), from escaping her treehouse to overcoming Morgoth. The duel between Finrod and Sauron will be the most explicit song-as-magic-power moment, and to sell that, the viewers are going to have to know what an elf is capable of when he starts singing.....

Or, let's answer the question of WHY Fingon decides to bring a harp to a gunfight.

Maedhros is made captive by Morgoth when he tries to beat Morgoth at his own game of subtle treachery and finds out the hard way that Morgoth is now into outrageous treachery rather than subtle. Maedhros' force is outgunned, because he brought a bunch of elves to a fight with balrogs. That fight is going to be with conventional weapons, not magic, right?

When Fingon sets off alone to rescue Maedhros from Thangorodrim, he leaves the army behind. He's not attempting to break into a fortress by conventional means. This is a magic attack (I guess?), but looks like him wandering around the mountains alone, singing. Carrying a harp. He has a bow and arrows and a knife on him, but it's not even mentioned that he's carrying a sword! That is going to look really stupid if we can't sell it as some sort of stealthy elf-magic.

(I mean, it works. He finds Maedhros. And he calls on Manwë for aid, and does the first summoned-eagle trick. So he must have had a good plan in there somewhere.....)

Late in Season 2, there is a scene where Galadriel is at Alqualondë with her cousins, watching the swanships and thinking about going to Middle Earth. She could observe the Teleri singing as they make the ropes or sails for the ships....
 
I agree that Elves should be singing a lot of the time and especially when engaged in creative activities. But we also have to show a connection between the singing and extraordinary things happening.
 
Important question - does Fëanor sing when he makes the silmarils?

Secondary question - are we planning to use singing to show Míriel 'putting too much of herself into her child'? Or something more subtle, where she is often singing during the pregnancy, but never afterwards? Perhaps she even hates the sound of singing while she's in her weakened/fading state?
 
MithLuin said:
Important question - does Fëanor sing when he makes the silmarils?

Secondary question - are we planning to use singing to show Míriel 'putting too much of herself into her child'? Or something more subtle, where she is often singing during the pregnancy, but never afterwards? Perhaps she even hates the sound of singing while she's in her weakened/fading state?
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I'm hesitant to go so far as to have Feanor sing the Silmarils... singing is one major way in which magic is produced, of course, but the singing is the medium, an expression of will. Making song=magic simply put could set us up for headaches later: I, at least, want to have Maglor since in remembrance/penitence, without any hint of magic. We'll also see magic that doesn't include song: I don't, for example, think Sauron sang while he made the One Ring (though Celebrimbor might in making the three?). There are other times I think incantation, without music or sing-songy voice would be more effective (the barrow-wights would lose some of the creepiness if they sing rather than intone). So singing needs to be one -- but not the only -- means of expressing one's will. Feanor doesn't strike me as much of a singer.

On the other hand, I love the idea of Miriel singing constantly during the pregnancy, but never after. Not all viewers might get it, but it's a sign of loss/fading even without the magical component.
 
I agree that not all singing should be magic. It should be a concious action to use magic. I don't think we always have to be clear, but background music might be used to hint at magic happening.

I agree with Marielle that there should be other types of magic. Sauron doing a song and dance number when making the Ring, is in my view a bit unlikely.
 
hmm... i see the teleri and vanyar as singers but not necessary the noldor...

i guess the noldo smith might chant or intone some runes i guess though.
 
'Whistle while you work,' don't you know....

(And yes, I know how passionately Tolkien *hated* Walt Disney's Snow White)

One advantage of having someone singing in a workshop is that you can hear them without seeing them. That could be useful at times. For instance, if Nerdanel were humming to herself the first time she and Fëanor met, he could hear her before he saw her, and the viewer could anticipate the meeting.

But yes, we don't want to turn this into a musical; people won't be singing all the time. But...they're elves. They should be at least somewhat musically inclined, and music should be an integral part of how they express themselves!
 
MithLuin said:
'Whistle while you work,' don't you know....

(And yes, I know how passionately Tolkien *hated* Walt Disney's Snow White)

One advantage of having someone singing in a workshop is that you can hear them without seeing them. That could be useful at times. For instance, if Nerdanel were humming to herself the first time she and Fëanor met, he could hear her before he saw her, and the viewer could anticipate the meeting.

But yes, we don't want to turn this into a musical; people won't be singing all the time. But...they're elves. They should be at least somewhat musically inclined, and music should be an integral part of how they express themselves!
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True... and we can differentiate the types of singing, I think, to reduce the "musical" feel. Noldor, I think, are more likely to hum or chant -- and in their chest voice, not head -- rather than sing actual songs. Singing like musicals we might want to reserve for the Teleri. And then... polyphony/counterpoint for the Vanyar? It's tempting to make them chant, but I think they would sing their poetry with more flair than that -- they would use their head voice along with their chest.
 
different types of singing and chanting for the tribes.. but everyone his own kind of magic.

i suppose noldorian humming or whispering would be more similar to dwarven magic...

do dwarves also sing magic chants? some textual evidence seems to imply such a thing
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
Well, there certainly seems to be some magic in the song of the dwarves in Bilbo's home (Though Narya might be part of that). However, it appears to me that the bulk of their "magic" is technical in nature.
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I agree. Dwarves can enchant with their song, that's clear, but I strong suspect their "strongest" magic is dependent upon the skill of their fingers.

Edited to add: I suspect it's a difference in their natures. Elves, even the Noldor, called themselves the Quendi, the "speaking people", and so it makes sense that their greatest works would be a vocal expression of their will. Dwarves were crafted by Aule to be students and makers, and so they express themselves.
 
Examples of something "obviously" (so much as that can ever be said in Tolkien) magical, at least in part:
Silmarils
Palantiri?
Swan Ships (or so I think)
Girdle of Melian? (does Maia stuff count?)
Finrod's rap battle with Sauron
Beren's enchantment by Luthien
Luthien's cloak
Luthien and Beren's taking the hides of Thuringwethil and Draugluin? (there's something more than just simple disguises, methinks, at work here)
Luthien's song before Morgoth
Gurthang, and probably Anglachel and Anguirel
Glamdring
Orcrist
(Sting: still glows, and I love the idea -- even if it's probably not true -- that it was little Earendil's first blade)
The Rings of Power

.... what else?
 
We will definitely need magic apart from singing.

So to demonstrate that, I'm going to post a song :p


This is an old English folk song about growing barley and making beer, but it has a rather mythic feel to it. If we can imbue every day actions with mythic power, I think we will be getting at the 'elf magic' in Tolkien's story.

Now, how to show that on film....
 
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