Orcs

[Marielle]

Seems to me this conversation deserves its own thread.


I missed the session last Friday, and while the discussion board and podcast, as always, raised excellent ideas, I thought there was one possibility that wasn't mentioned. What if we flip the idea of an elf's fea being forced into another hroa? That is, have the fea of an elf forcibly removed from its hroa by necromancy, to be replaced with a bestial fea. This would, in effect, create an animal within an elvish body. In Aristotelian thought, the soul of an animal is animated, but not rational. But mixing in modern neuroscience, we can imagine that an animal fea that has access to a (human-like) brain could think and perhaps even approach rationality, even if it lacks self-reflection, or a will that can triumph over instinct and impulse. This would also, perhaps, explain why the orcs breed so quickly, when elvish families in Tolkien's tales seem to be small. Feanor has a huge brood of children, but does anyone else have more than four children? Many elvish couples only have one. It could be something innate in the bestial fear to reproduce quickly.

I'm sure there's something here I'm missing, but I can't help but think it circumvents the "free will issue", and yet qualifies as "of all the deeds of Melkor, most hateful to Illuvatar".

*edited: I flipped fea and hroa a couple of times in my original post.

 

[Alex Long]

I was thinking a very similar thing. Melkor kidnaps elves to worship him, but they refuse so he tortures them to death. The alven fea scamper off to Mandos leaving their lifeless bodies behind. Melkor then experiments on the lifeless bodies of the elves effectively damaging them into orcish forms.

The place where my idea splits from Marielle's is that the fea that embody the less-than-shiny, new orc bodies are lesser Maia spirits like the dragons. I don't think using Maia spirits creates that big of a 'reproduction' problem. There are no recorded cases (that I can think of) in Tolkien's works where a Ainu spirit reproduces with a non-Ainu to create an Ainu-like being. The only place I can think of something similar is the Book of Lost Tales where the Valar have children, but that is both a case of dual-Valar relations and a case of a rejected idea; we aren't bound to it. With multiple Maia spirits reproducing in similarly constructed material bodies, I don't see any precedent in the books to contradict the idea that an offspring would be of the same material body as it's parents. The resulting fea would be of similar kind to that of his or her parents as we see in the case of Melian.

The idea of the orcs being made using the lifeless bodies of elves (which Marielle also mentioned) also would explain the use of the term "Necromancer" by Sauron later on if he starts a similar program later on in the third age.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

The most recent session did go into this in detail. While I am indeed in agreement with the use of Maiar spirits, at least in part, the hosts decided to allow the Orcs to keep their free will, but have that will suppressed and overridden by Melkor, and later Sauron. This means that the Orcs can be ruined elves of some sort or another without having to worry about trying to circumvent free will. Prof. Olsen cited the line from Return of the King where Sauron is distracted from the battle at the Black Gate by Frodo putting on the ring. The Orcs basically stand around and do nothing for a moment, confused as the will of Sauron is withdrawn from them. That would mean that Orcs, while not typically inclined to good due to their rearing environment, could conceivably turn from evil if there were no Sauron or Melkor to influence them otherwise. The non-divine characters would not necessarily know this, and would likely be inclined to slaughter Orcs on sight due to the history of violence associated with them. (Typically deservedly so.)

 

[Phillip Menzies]

I was thinking a very similar thing. Melkor kidnaps elves to worship him, but they refuse so he tortures them to death. The alven fea scamper off to Mandos leaving their lifeless bodies behind. Melkor then experiments on the lifeless bodies of the elves effectively damaging them into orcish forms.

The place where my idea splits from Marielle's is that the fea that embody the less-than-shiny, new orc bodies are lesser Maia spirits like the dragons. I don't think using Maia spirits creates that big of a 'reproduction' problem. There are no recorded cases (that I can think of) in Tolkien's works where a Ainu spirit reproduces with a non-Ainu to create an Ainu-like being. The only place I can think of something similar is the Book of Lost Tales where the Valar have children, but that is both a case of dual-Valar relations and a case of a rejected idea; we aren't bound to it. With multiple Maia spirits reproducing in similarly constructed material bodies, I don't see any precedent in the books to contradict the idea that an offspring would be of the same material body as it's parents. The resulting fea would be of similar kind to that of his or her parents as we see in the case of Melian.

The idea of the orcs being made using the lifeless bodies of elves (which Marielle also mentioned) also would explain the use of the term "Necromancer" by Sauron later on if he starts a similar program later on in the third age.

The elvish body could become distorted at having the alien fea forced into it, meaning that the elves' fea could not be reborn as their body has been corrupted. Obviously this would never be shown.

 

[Marielle]

The elvish body could become distorted at having the alien fea forced into it, meaning that the elves' fea could not be reborn as their body has been corrupted. Obviously this would never be shown.

No, it wouldn't be shown, but I heard somewhere that 90% of worldbuilding doesn't belong in the work, but the creator's head. This is the sort of thing it might be helpful to think through carefully.

I still don't see the need for the spirits entering the elvish bodies to be Maiar. I guess I'm struggling with it because the orcs are, to put it bluntly, cannon fodder for most of the stories we will be dealing with. The dragons make sense as Maiar, because they are awesome and terrible -- commanders and great foes. We don't really get an orc strategist, save maybe Azog or Bolg, the LoTR movies notwithstanding. There is something highly bestial about them, instinctual, and I'm having a hard time imagining their origin being in spirits the peers of Tom Bombadil, Olorin, or Melian.

 

[Tom Hillman]

I had a thought about this issue this morning. There's an episode of BSG called "Scar", in which a Cylon Raider, having experienced many painful deaths and resurrections, becomes consumed with rage. What if Morgoth repeatedly killed the Elves he has abducted. Somehow he traps their fea and keeps them from returning to Mandos, and they reincarnate in their old body, re-animating it. Without their stay in the Halls of Mandos, the Elves are not purged of the pain and rage and grief of their deaths. With each repetition, the reincarnated being is more full of rage and hatred. Since the hroa and fea of Elves are closely bound together, this experience also progressively warps their bodies. In time all they remember is their hatred and anger, consciously forgetting or suppressing the memory that they were once Elves, and hating the Elves all the more because of this. Rather like the Barrow-wight railing against the morning of which it was bereft.

With a solution like this, there is no need to come up with other spirits to enter their bodies. It ties in necromancy. It justifies the remark that this was his greatest crime. And has that typical Morgoth/Sauron twist of the knife in the wound.

A possibly interesting corollary would be that orcs may then be immortal, too. Think of Shagrat and Gorbag talking about the "Great Siege" and it sounds more like they're talking about the First Age than the Second.

 

[Don Standing]

Forgive my late arrival, but I've been listening to the podcasts as I walk Frodo, the wonder dog and it takes a lot of walking to get through an episode. Anyway, this is my solution to the orc question. Ents (at least) and Eagles have free will and are, therefore, sanctioned by Iluvatar. I don't think Treebeard is a tree with a Maia tenant: he is a living, mortal creature. Why cannot orcs also be sanctioned by Iluvatar? They are, after all, in the Music. They would, therefore, be capable of free will, but due to poor parenting over the millenia are not likely to make good choices. They are easily dominated by Morgoth (or Sauron) and when that guidance is gone, they are at a loss. When the (current) Dark Lord is not actively dominating their will, we see them being chaotically spiteful (at least) as are the goblins in "The Hobbit". Similarly, when Manwe has no particular mission for the Eagles, we see them minding their eaglish business (as in "the Hobbit"). Every creature in Arda acts according to its nature. If Iluvatar lets Aule and Yavanna and Manwe have their toys, why not Melkor?
Or, if they are not a separate creation, why couldn't Iluvatar "let" Melkor have some Elves and try to break them? After all, the orcs are necessary for any final victory and no lasting harm would be done the souls of the degraded Elves.
I realise there are myriad reasons why this is a heresy of sorts, but the Ents, Eagles and Dwarves seem to be analogous to Orcs and, therefore, whatever solution we have for the former might well be useful for the latter.
Anywho, time to walk the dog again. And, yes, he does have a ring hanging on his collar.

 

[Marielle]

If Iluvatar lets Aule and Yavanna and Manwe have their toys, why not Melkor?
Or, if they are not a separate creation, why couldn't Iluvatar "let" Melkor have some Elves and try to break them? After all, the orcs are necessary for any final victory and no lasting harm would be done the souls of the degraded Elves.
I realise there are myriad reasons why this is a heresy of sorts, but the Ents, Eagles and Dwarves seem to be analogous to Orcs and, therefore, whatever solution we have for the former might well be useful for the latter.

I've been mulling over your post for a couple of days. It's an interesting thought, but one I can't, in the end, agree with. The creation of the Orcs is "of all Melkor's deeds, most hateful to Iluvatar." That statement, to me, is incompatible with the creation of the Orcs being in any way "permitted" or sanctioned by Iluvatar. I know, that opens up the whole "how can something happen against the will of an all-powerful deity" can of worms, but I think that is easier to explain, or at least side-step, than saying that he in any way approved of the twisting of the Elves.

I also don't agree that the Ents, Eagles, and Dwarves are parallel. The dwarves were created in an act of rebellion, but the humility of Aule lead to Eru adopting them, and before that they had no true life, but were merely automata. Are we supposed to believe something similar happened with Melkor? Unlikely.

And the Ents/Eagles have a different sort of life from the Children. How, exactly, is unclear, but I think it is clear that their life is somehow utterly unlike humans, and therefore a great mystery to us. They are best understood, to my mind, as manifestations of the will of their respective Valar, but they do keep their own agency (see Ents becoming treeish).

All this is to say I must respectfully, but completely disagree with your premise that the Ents, Eagles, and Dwarves are the "toys" of their respective Valar. Two were in the Music, and were therefore somehow part of the plan from the beginning, and the last was adopted because of the compassion of Iluvatar. Neither scenario fits with the Orcs.

 

[Don Standing]

I've been mulling over your post for a couple of days. It's an interesting thought, but one I can't, in the end, agree with. The creation of the Orcs is "of all Melkor's deeds, most hateful to Iluvatar." That statement, to me, is incompatible with the creation of the Orcs being in any way "permitted" or sanctioned by Iluvatar. I know, that opens up the whole "how can something happen against the will of an all-powerful deity" can of worms, but I think that is easier to explain, or at least side-step, than saying that he in any way approved of the twisting of the Elves.

I also don't agree that the Ents, Eagles, and Dwarves are parallel. The dwarves were created in an act of rebellion, but the humility of Aule lead to Eru adopting them, and before that they had no true life, but were merely automata. Are we supposed to believe something similar happened with Melkor? Unlikely.

And the Ents/Eagles have a different sort of life from the Children. How, exactly, is unclear, but I think it is clear that their life is somehow utterly unlike humans, and therefore a great mystery to us. They are best understood, to my mind, as manifestations of the will of their respective Valar, but they do keep their own agency (see Ents becoming treeish).

All this is to say I must respectfully, but completely disagree with your premise that the Ents, Eagles, and Dwarves are the "toys" of their respective Valar. Two were in the Music, and were therefore somehow part of the plan from the beginning, and the last was adopted because of the compassion of Iluvatar. Neither scenario fits with the Orcs.

I don't entirely disagree. As I said, my suggestion is a tad heretical, but it would be a solution. A problem with monotheism is that the omnipotent deity must allow evil. Therefore, everything that happens in Arda must be in the Music. The "most hateful to Iluvatar" statement is the Elves' perspective. We nowhere get access to Iluvatar's master plan.

 

[Marielle]

I don't entirely disagree. As I said, my suggestion is a tad heretical, but it would be a solution. A problem with monotheism is that the omnipotent deity must allow evil. Therefore, everything that happens in Arda must be in the Music. The "most hateful to Iluvatar" statement is the Elves' perspective. We nowhere get access to Iluvatar's master plan.

Fair enough. I agree that, if we were coming into this creating our own mythos inspired by Tolkien, a la D&D, that would be a perfectly acceptable answer. But it is, as you said, "heretical", in terms of Middle Earth, and a bridge too far for my tastes. I also don't think that we need to spell out an answer onscreen, because you're right, we never do get access to Iluvatar's master plan. But this is the most complex and intriguing question Tolkien never fully answered to my satisfaction, and I can't help poking at it.

As for Iluvatar "allowing" evil, and orcs being in the music... 1) that is a classic question of benevolent monotheism, one that C. S. Lewis addressed in one of my favorite analogies, ever. Imagine a mother telling her children they are old enough to keep their room clean themselves, and she is no longer going to do it for them. She comes up one night and sees it is a mess. It is not her will that the children be dirty, but her will allowed it. I can't say for certain Tolkien is operating under a similar idea, but I do see hints that he is.

2) I admit, the Music is really, really confusing for me. At first, it seems like a rather "broad brush" look at the history of Arda, more about themes than individual events... and then we learn the Ents and Eagles were in the Music. But again, the Music is sung by the Ainar, with the consent of Eru, not his direction (his interventions excepting). I think it falls more under Eru's will in the sort of the mother's above, rather than the "Let there be" sort.


(If I seem stupidly hung up on this, I apologize. I went to a small liberal arts college, and each of my professors had a massive fanboy for either Aristotle or Aquinas. I catch myself pulling apart philosophical/theological connotations in children's cartoons, much less a masterwork like Middle Earth.)

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

One of the most amazing things I have found about Tolkien's work is how people of different walks of life, different cultures, and different worldviews, can find applicability therein. What that means, however, is that we are all struck by different things. Some of gravitate to those ideas which are inherently Christian, others find the more "pagan" roots attractive. Yet others find merit in the more scholarly virtues, and some find traces of modern humanism. Many span more than one of these perspectives.

We all approach these stories from different directions, and it is, at times, difficult to agree on which themes are most important.

I think what I'm getting at is that if we, like Tolkien, leave some of these matters to the imagination of the audience, we allow for a broader range of people to find meaning in the story we tell, just as we all have.

 

[Marielle]

One of the most amazing things I have found about Tolkien's work is how people of different walks of life, different cultures, and different worldviews, can find applicability therein. What that means, however, is that we are all struck by different things. Some of gravitate to those ideas which are inherently Christian, others find the more "pagan" roots attractive. Yet others find merit in the more scholarly virtues, and some find traces of modern humanism. Many span more than one of these perspectives.

We all approach these stories from different directions, and it is, at times, difficult to agree on which themes are most important.

I think what I'm getting at is that if we, like Tolkien, leave some of these matters to the imagination of the audience, we allow for a broader range of people to find meaning in the story we tell, just as we all have.

Well said!

 

[Elrond]

I know I am a bit behind in this, but I have just started listening to the series and am trying to catch up. While listening to this discussion I kept thinking that there is a solution to the hosts not necessarily corrupting elves to become orcs. You have already ham Maiar corrupted and damaged who have become balrogs. Could orcs be the damaged offspring of these already damaged maiar? Melkor could then experiment on these offspring and create a race that breeds at the necessary rates to create his armies. They could be being bred in Angband as early as needed or as late as wanted.

Just a thought.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Well, we have definitely considered that, as I remember suggesting something similar myself.

 

[Ray Burns]

I can't help but think that maybe the concept behind Morgoth's Ring might be a possible answer. If Morgoth "dispersed his power into the very matter of Arda", it is not a big leap to assume that some of that power was dispersed into the fabric of the Orcs. So Orcs are the living embodiment of Morgoth's will, even as he lays beyond the Door of Night.

 

[Marielle]

I can't help but think that maybe the concept behind Morgoth's Ring might be a possible answer. If Morgoth "dispersed his power into the very matter of Arda", it is not a big leap to assume that some of that power was dispersed into the fabric of the Orcs. So Orcs are the living embodiment of Morgoth's will, even as he lays beyond the Door of Night.

I think that idea works for the Silmarillion Orcs, but if we integrate the Hobbit and LotR into our worldview, where we have orcs and orc chieftains acting/thinking independently, we might have issues.

Then again, we have the exact same issues that Professor Tolkien himself never resolved

 

[MithLuin]

Right - if we present the orcs as fallen creatures but with their own will (not automatons or mindless slaves), we create an issue. Iluvatar told Aulë - 'You can't do that, only I can do that' and there is a reference to the Flame Imperishable being with him. Creating from scratch is something none of the Valar can do, and Melkor clearly resents this limitation. Starting with the 'matter' of Middle Earth is fine, but then what do you do when it comes to the spirit/soul? Do orcs lack this? If that is the case, are they 'empty' or mindless in some way (while still alive)? Are there 'borrowed' souls from animals, Maiar or elves involved?

Because we show the creation of the dwarves on screen in Season 1, and call the audience's attention to these limitations, we can't turn around and have the bad guys create sentient life. It has to be clear that they are frustrated in their efforts and rely on twisting existing creatures.

We want to avoid being too explicit about just what is done, but we do show them kidnapping elves before the creation of the orcs, so......it will be heavily implied in our show that elves are part of the 'raw material' of orcs.

In Tolkien's world, Humans, Elves and Orcs can all interbreed and create viable offspring.* Biologically, this makes them the same species. So, tying them to each other in the origins is probably a good plan. Having orcs be monsters with no tie to the elves is a less interesting story, so we shouldn't do that.




* Pleasant one first. The half-elven result from human men marrying elven women, and are thus kinda like ligers (male lion crossed with female tiger). Lions and tigers wouldn't interbreed in the wild, but they *can* produce viable, fertile offspring. So far so good.

No one really wants to think about orcs breeding with men, but Saruman went there. His Uruk-hai were the result of a captive breeding program involving Dunlending humans and orcs. Merry remarked that some of the Uruk-hai had a more human appearance than others.

While we don't have any certain examples of elves and orcs interbreeding, Saruman got his idea from somewhere.

 

[Ray Burns]

Thinking this through, and reading through the other comments, I would like to alter my thought on Morgoth's Ring just a smidge. Orcs are indeed ruined Elves, but it is the evil will of Morgoth that keeps them from repenting from evil and potential redemption. Just as in Arda Marred, Morgoth's will is so firmly embodied in the fabric of Arda that it can never be repaired until after the Dagor Dagorath, Orcs can never be free from the evil and seek redemption until Morgoth's will is removed.

So, Orcs are another symptom of Arda Marred, and just like Arda, the repair/redemption cannot take place while Morgoth exists. This is a bit existential and hard to show in a program unless you have a long tedious exposition of a learned Elvish scholar (Bobwe?).

But it circumvents the issue of independent creation by Morgoth as these are ruined Elves and Men. It explains why ruined Elves (and Men) remained ruined. It demonstrates that there may be 'original' Orcs still around (and what a horrible tragic story that would be) during LOTR. It also suggests why later generations of Orcs demonstrate a growing independence from control having been 'born' to evil for generations rather than 'turned' to evil.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Yes, I would tend to, as the Co-Hosts have done, go with the Published Silmarillion's take on it, having the Orcs be ruined Elves. I had initially advocated for a combination of monstrously embodied Maiar and ruined Elves born into bondage, as it would give us a very easy "Orcs cannot be redeemed" line, in keeping with the tradition of the Nephilim of apocryphal lore.

Making the Orcs purely ruined elves whose free will has been collectively suppressed by that of Melkor, and then Sauron also works, and gives us the possibility of "Warcraft"-style Orcs when there is no will controlling them. Which I think makes the Dagor Dagorath even more tragic, in the end.

 

[ouzaru]

Having the orc's free will suppressed is really boring to me. I'd much prefer that they be cowed by fear and circumstance. I'm not above using it as a plot device in specific moments in the story, but the idea that the orcs are held to evil by artificial means means they aren't really evil at all, which seems super boring.