Session 2.15 for S2E11

Phillip Menzies

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Staff member
Discussion questions for the next session to air on Friday the 2nd of December 2016 are:
  1. How do we handle Finwe, his exile with Feanor and his relationship with the Valar?
  2. What is Formenos like and what needs to happen there with Feanor and Finwe? Does Nerdanel go into exile with Feanor?
  3. We need to show the conversation between Feanor and Melkor. What will we show and what will we accomplish in the conversation?
  4. What will we show of the Valar through these events and how much if any will be from the Valar's point of view in particular the Valar discovering Melkor's part in the unrest?
 
Agreed. Formenos should be nothing like Tirion. And while the scale is bigger than 'Fëanor's house'....it's not so large as the city all the Noldor live in.

I don't want to draw *too* strong a parallel between Utumno/Angband and Tirion/Formenos....but it should be much more practically defensible, and much less shining white city on a hill.

I think it should look like a compound (walls around it) and have some unfinished construction going on so we see that it is a work in progress. It should *not* be ugly - the Noldor know how to build some awesome stuff, and they're going to put those details into their work here as well. But a more utilitarian aesthetic; nothing frivolous or rococo about this place.
 
As far as the conversation between Feanor and Melkor is concerned, say the end result we see and Feanor explains what happened to Finwe and his sons.
 
I think that Marielle's comparison of Formenos to Masada is a good one.

As to the conversation between Fëanor and Melkor, I certainly don't want to shy away from this one.

I want to see Fëanor's contempt for Melkor, but also that while Melkor hates Fëanor all the more for this, he knows he's winning whether Fëanor listens to him or not.
 
2. I think Nerdanel should not go with them as she and Feanor broke before they leave, right?
It allows us to focus on the Melkor vs. Feanor and Feanor vs. Valar conflicts.
 
I don't want to lean too hard on the "fortress vs. city". We already did that with Utumno/Angband, and I don't think it behooves us to make too explicit a comparison to Melkor right off the bat. I would be pretty comfortable having it get darker and more fortified over time, but I think it should start out distinct from Tirion, but not overly fortified.
 
I was wondering how we're going to show Melkor's disappearance and the events surrounding it. I like the way it's described in the book, he seems to more or less evaporate - but I'm not sure how literary we're supposed to read this. Anyway it says Tulkas searched for him and couldn't find him, because he was like a cloud in the hills. Also, in this state, he seems to cast a shadow over Valinor.

I'm not sure we have to show how Melkor disappears. Maybe we could just show a shadow falling over Valinor* and then have The Rock running around failing to find him. Then later on, he just materialises outside the gate of Formenos.

*We could use the timing of this in different ways. For example, the Valar could be talking after sentencing Fëanor to exile and realising that Melkor has instigated the Noldor somehow and (quiet boom) suddenly it gets a little bit darker (just enough to be clearly noticeable)
 
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I don't want to lean too hard on the "fortress vs. city". We already did that with Utumno/Angband, and I don't think it behooves us to make too explicit a comparison to Melkor right off the bat. I would be pretty comfortable having it get darker and more fortified over time, but I think it should start out distinct from Tirion, but not overly fortified.
That's one reason I suggested Masada as a mental model: it's a fortress, yes, but also a palace, and a good bit of the fortress aspect is simply locational, from my understanding. It's isolated and easily fortified, but not necessary just a military fort: it had a palace, baths, libraries, etc. I would want Formenos to be quite luxurious, actually.
 
I don't know that the text necessarily bears that out as a given. The Silmarils are, until the Trees are destroyed, purely aesthetic in value. And he goes around with them on his brow. If you have something from the text that contradicts this, I would certainly be interested in hearing it.
 
Feanor is not one for softness, inasmuch as there's not much soft about his personality, but luxury doesn't have to be soft. Feanor might very well have "majestic" sort of luxury: lots of marble or other cold, monochromatic stone, rich-colored fabrics without much in the way of patterns, metal cast into "strong" (ie not delicate) braziers, dishes, diadems, etc. We should definitely have some Utumno parallels, though I think that Formenos would be much less "done" than Utumno (Dr. O suggested that U should not be overdone, but "highly done" back in Season 1).
 
After all, Feanor is the foremost of the Noldor, the craftsmen-elves. He's going to be surrounded by beautiful, well-made things. Luxury, then, is almost impossible to avoid, just because it's difficult to imagine craftsmen living "rough" lives when they can invent something to make it easier. But we don't have to make it all plush couches and fountains of wine a la Roman decadence, either.
 
Going back to Season 1 podcasts, I noticed that the execs also suggested that Utumno be white/silver in color theme, since Melkor is all about light. We could make Formenos, in contrast, fiery in color; red porphyry or Aswan granite for the walls, perhaps, and shades of red/orange everywhere, gold instead of silver or platinum for the metalwork, etc.
 
Discussion questions for the next session to air on Friday the 2nd of December 2016 are:
  1. How do we handle Finwe, his exile with Feanor and his relationship with the Valar?
  2. What is Formenos like and what needs to happen there with Feanor and Finwe? Does Nerdanel go into exile with Feanor?
  3. We need to show the conversation between Feanor and Melkor. What will we show and what will we accomplish in the conversation?
  4. What will we show of the Valar through these events and how much if any will be from the Valar's point of view in particular the Valar discovering Melkor's part in the unrest?

1. I think we could play up Finwe's sense of kingship here; that is, rather than have him saying "whaaa, you're banishing my son, I'm not gonna be king until you let him back!!" have him say "this was an internal Noldor/family matter, and since the Valar feel they can just stick their noses in here and usurp my role in this, obviously my being king means nothing, so what's the point". This makes his withdrawal to Formenos a more pointed protest than simply siding with Feanor.

2. I've spoken to some extent already of my opinions on Formenos: fortress city, beautiful but imposing, on a cliff as apposed to a hill, reds/fiery colors everywhere.

I would like for Finwe to have at least one conversation with Feanor trying to convince him to make peace with his brothers. I know Feanor is clearly the favorite, but that could be part of the appeal: "everyone looks to you for leadership, and you know you have always been first in my heart. What have you to fear in making peace? The Noldor need to be united against the interference of the Valar".

I'm also tempted to have Nerdanel go to Formenos, too, maybe because I think having her refusal to follow him come at the Oatswearing would be the more powerful moment. Also, Feanor needs to be convinced to go back for the feast of reconciliation: I can't see Feanor going at this point just because the Valar command.

3. I like the idea of Melkor never actually being allowed into Formenos, but kept on the porch while Feanor comes out to speak to him -- like Pilate comes out to the high priests in the Gospel accounts. It could visually show that Feanor sees himself as superior to Melkor -- he's humbling him, even as he appears to be indulging him. What they should talk about... not sure.

4. Has Melkor "jumped bail" at this point? If so, the Valar should be highly suspicious, though at least one (maybe Nessa or Vana?) could say "he might have fled because he knew suspicion would fall on him; it is proof of fear, not guilt." But I think most Valar would want to hunt him down and retry him at this point -- would it be demeaning to Manwe to have him, once again, resistant to this?
 
I like the angle of Finwe being 'offended' by the usurpation of his perceived kingly powers. It would further demonstrate just how far the perception of the authority of the Valar has fallen in the eyes of the Noldor.

I really like if we can have the 'disappearance' of Melkor occur offscreen while at the same time having onscreen effects (the darkening of the sky). It would show that we're not dealing with some ordinary being here who is just ev-apparating like some two-bit wizard, but with a being with access to truly cosmic powers. And when he appears at the gates of Formenos, we would see that the fabric of space and the material world is being affected by the reappearance of the Vala Melkor. Again, seeing this and then seeing Feanor humbling him at the gates would show that a) the Noldor have forgotten what the Valar truly are and what they represent, b) the pride of Feanor and c) that Melkor (even with that power at his disposal) is basically craven and won't confront anyone directly (unless driven to it as we see later with Ungoliant).

I think that, at this point, everyone is suspicious of Melkor. But, until he is brought before the judgment of Manwe, no one will actually openly say it. (Feanor's denunciation of Melkor and naming him Morgoth would then be another sign of the contempt that he holds for the Valar and their authority)
 
I really like your thoughts on Finwë during all of this, Marielle - it gives a nuance to his viewpoint and puts him in the not-so-comfortable position of trying to talk Fëanor into something.

I'm not as sure about Nerdanel. Their split has to be a big deal, and I'm not sure when it should happen for best impact. They've quarreled before at this point, but not irreconcilably so. So, if she refuses to go to Formenos with him now, that is a Big Deal and we need to figure out exactly what got her to that point and figure out what his reaction will be, etc. Then when all of their children go with him (and none stay with her), we have to show her reaction to that.

We have not yet made any decision about the twins - will one of them die in the burning of the ships? Will that be related to Nerdanel asking that at least *one* of their sons remain with her? If so...I might want the split to happen now, so that she and Fëanor are already estranged at the Oath. But....there's argument for doing it then, as well.
 
I definitely think Valar should be suspicious of Melkor. Tulkas should try to find him to confront him (but fail).

I like your idea Marielle to have Nerdanel come along to Formenos. Hey, she's a stone artisan. She could accomplish marvellous things there.
I like the idea of Melkor never actually being allowed into Formenos, but kept on the porch while Feanor comes out to speak to him
Yes! I agree totally.
 
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