Session 3.03 - Creative Challenges

MithLuin

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Three items to discuss for next time:

1) Menegroth. Why do the elves decide to live in a cave? How does that come about?
2) Helcaraxë. Is it only the ice that is dangerous? How will we handle that journey?
3) Angband. What is Angband like? What is the fleshed-out villain storyline that will tie the Noldor and Beleriand stories together?


(I unfortunately lost the broadcast right when Corey got to this point, so if anyone wants to add to what he was asking for, please do so - but I know these were the three main points he wanted us to discuss.)

In addition, he would like a fleshed-out frame outline incorporating the ideas discussed today to review next time. It's like we have homework! Welcome back from summer vacation :)
 
That pretty much captures the questions. I think, unexpectedly to me, that #1 might be the hardest one to deal with. The Sindar will eventually have their Girdle - what drives them underground?

Could it be that they are convinced by the Dwarves that this is the best way to deal with Orcs? Or at least that the seed of the idea comes from Dwarves, and so they turn to the Dwarves for their expertise?
 
1) Perhaps it's not necessity? Maybe Thingol visits the halls of dwarves, and is struck by their beauty, and that's why he settles on Menegroth's design. Aesthetics, not security?

2) I dunno if we want monsters in the Helcaraxe, but I don't think we want Morgoth attacking. I always presumed he was taken by surprise at the arrival of Fingolfin's forces, so I don't think he's aware of them coming.

3) one other thing Corey mentioned was the politicking between Mairon and Gothmog and what Morgoth thinks. I suspect he's amused by it, and actively plays them off each other like a particularly combative CEO -- maybe he assumes conflict would drive each of them to do their best?
 
I like wiruin... I suggest it's a bit like poes maelstroem... But i don't see how it it relevant for the crossong... The host are not seafarers.

A travel over insecure, barren ans frozen land and ice actually seems dangerous enoug to me! These noldor are a large group and they have women, children, possibly horses, draft animals, cattle... When i think about it the actual try seems like pure madness to me.

They actually could meet the giant gilim to show them a secure bridge or help them out at one point.
 
Yeah I've spent time crossing my own Helcaraxe, working outdoors in the winter in northern Canada. Without a warm truck to get into now and then I don't really know what you'd do - it's not just your bodies and your animals, but the physical properties of your gear aren't the same. Lines snap, containers shatter.

That said, I do agree with the professor that it's not exactly must see TV to watch hypothermia slowly develop, punctuated by the occasional snapping rope.

It is a challenge.
 
The cold won't be the only problem for the Elves when they cross the Helcaraxë. The terrain should be really dangerous and tough. Slippery, treacherous, full of blocks of ice and deep gorges, some of them suddenly opening under the feet of the elves. Snowstorms will be common.

I don't see much of monsters roaming araound - but maybe some more or less vague feeling of lost spirits howling the wastes.
 
Last edited:
I like the idea of vague cold-spirits... but I still would love a Gilim the Giant Cameo too. I definitely would like to see the maelstoem...
 
Haakon said:
The cold won't be the only problem for the Elves when they cross the Helcaraxë. The terrain should be really dangerous and tough. Slippery, treacherous, full of blocks of ice and deep gorges, some of them suddenly opening under the feet of the elves. Snowstorms will be common.

I don't see much of monsters roaming araound - but maybe some more or less vague feeling of lost spirits howling the wastes.
Click to expand...
Also blocks of ice can collapse and fall over elves passing under.
In Norway many tourists have died because they went too close to the glaciers and blocks of ice smahed them.
 
I feel that those from Norway and Canada have much more intelligent things to say about the Helcaraxë than I do, child of the kindly south that I am ;). I mean, there could be evil walruses or something, and ice fishing. Polar bear attacks. I dunno.

I do want the move to Menegroth to be practical. Surely elves always consider the aesthetics (being elves), and so they are going to live in pretty caves, not rough-and-dirty caves. But. They don't move there without reason, and security should be one of the reasons. It can be suggested by the dwarves, but they have to choose it themselves.

Another potential reason to prefer the caves to the open forest is...consider how dark everything is. All the time. It's always a moonless night in Beleriand. So, if you want to see stuff, you carry torches/lanterns, you build bonfires, etc. You have to make your own light. And outside that small circle of light...the darkness waits. Building Menegroth allows them to fill a space with light, all the way to the walls, and there is no darkness beyond, just more and more stone. So, it can feel secure and homey in a way the wide open forests cannot, once you learn to fear the dark.

I realize elves like trees and starlight. I too like trees and starlight, and would never want to live underground or in a basement. So, perhaps Menegroth is a place of defense that they prepare in case they need it, or like the winter court or something. There could still be plenty of people who live out in the woods and come to the court very seldom (if at all).
 
On Menegroth: When the Sindar realise that the Great Enemy is back, they are terrified. They will remember Cuivienen and how afraid they were during the War to begin all Wars. They might think this will happen again, fire falling from the sky etc. They don't know that the Valar won't go to war now or that the Great Enemy will not use that kind of power. They will want to be Very Safe. They will want to move underground.
 
Last edited:
While they are not in contact with Valinor, Melian is there. She could reassure them about the Valar not raining down fire from heaven. Of course, last she knew, Melkor was chained in Mandos, so....her info is a bit outdated.
 
Well the primary fear should be about what Melkor might do, but we know, as does Melian, that fire rain and disastrous and dangerous effects are what happens when Valar go to war, regardless of their intentions, that's how they make war and one major reason why they have decided not to go to war.
I agree, Melian doesn't know what the Valar think now and the fact that Melkor is out should be puzzling.
Bottom line is: They have no idea what's going to happen, and the last time Things Happened, it was a nightmare.
 
Last edited:
The girdle happens after the First Battle in The Silmarillion, so what if Menegroth is a protection against the first orc-attacks and Mairon?
  • First orc raids (Mablung and Beleg)
  • Elves losing and dying
  • Encounter with dwarves
  • alliance negotiated
  • Menegroth given to Elves
    • Mîm tossed, disgruntled
  • The Sindar go dark so Mairon can’t find them (Kind of like Nargothrond, sneaky)
  • Sauron starts phase 2 (also sneaky!)
  • The girdle after the First Battle
(When does Mairon become Sauron?)
 
Technically, Gothmog has been calling him Sauron since the finale of Season 1.

But it is a derisive name, an insult, so I'm not sure when the last time we'll hear the name Mairon is. Sauron's fall is an ongoing process rather than any one event.
 
Haerangil said:
I like the idea of vague cold-spirits... but I still would love a Gilim the Giant Cameo too. I definitely would like to see the maelstoem...
Click to expand...
What did Tolkien actually write about Gilim? I can't remember anything (was he in the spell made by Tinúviel in the Lost Tales?)
 
I think it was just that.

Personally, I think we can get away with a Gilim cameo or mentioning of some kind, but we shouldn't make a big thing of him. More of an Easter egg thing. Ok I can see the Haerengil proposed working, Gilim somehow being a help to the Noldor, but it would have to be handled carefully..
 
Alcarohtar said:
The girdle happens after the First Battle in The Silmarillion, so what if Menegroth is a protection against the first orc-attacks and Mairon?
  • First orc raids (Mablung and Beleg)
  • Elves losing and dying
  • Encounter with dwarves
  • alliance negotiated
  • Menegroth given to Elves
    • Mîm tossed, disgruntled
  • The Sindar go dark so Mairon can’t find them (Kind of like Nargothrond, sneaky)
  • Sauron starts phase 2 (also sneaky!)
  • The girdle after the First Battle
(When does Mairon become Sauron?)
Click to expand...
I thought the Petty-Dwarves, like Mim, were tossed out of Nargothrond.
 
Re: Helceraxë, Ungoliant fled over that way with Morgoth...maybe some of it gets poisoned? So, in addition to gorges and falling blocks of ice, we could threaten the elves' water supply. Not that the entire region would be poisoned but perhaps enough that a few unfortunate souls perish from it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top