Session 3.14 - S3Ep9: Battle in Beleriand

MithLuin

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Session 3-14 will be held on Friday January 19th.

•How does the battle go in the North? How are the balrogs involved?
•How does the battle go in the South? How are the ents involved?
•What are the reasons the Noldor set out across the Helcaraxë? Which characters articulate which reasons?
 
How much chance is there to convince Corey to allow Denethor to die before Feanor? What is the state of the decision on the story timeline as proposed by Haakon? Did Denethor already die in a previous episode or does he die in this one?
 
Denethor has not died yet. He will likely die in this episode. Feanor will likely still be alive at the end of this episode. The battles are occurring more or less simultaneously though.
 
We should let the First Battle begin early in the episode. Thingol decides to attack. The Eastern Orc Host is rather large though so the battle takes time and at one point swings in favour of the orcs. This is when Denethor dies.
The battle in the North should be much shorter and smaller.
 
Why they cross the Helcaraxe? Because there’s no other way across; the Eagles have not aided them, Feanor burns the ships and it’s not like the Noldor can ask for more ships, Osse is pissed with them as well.
 
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Why they cross the Helcaraxe? Because there’s no other way across; the Eagles have not aided them, Feanor burns the ships and it’s not like the Noldor can ask for more ships, Osse is pissed with them as well.
All true, but is it truly a given that Fingolfin will continue to follow in Feanor's footsteps? Why is he different from Finarfin in this regard? What are the goals of those who make the trek? We have to articulate all of that on screen.
 
That would be the decision to make the crossing. More important is the question of how we get him to that point.
Well, let me think:

From the Published Silmarillion, if I recall in a nutshell:
Fingolfin swore a vow to Feanor that he would support him, Fingon and Turgon want to go, and don’t like going back on their word if they find a task. As far as I am aware, the Helcaraxe is the only way to go; Osse won’t help them, as he already drowned some ships, Feanor has burned his ships, the only land bridge is the Helcaraxe.
 
Well, let me think:

From the Published Silmarillion, if I recall in a nutshell:
Fingolfin swore a vow to Feanor that he would support him, Fingon and Turgon want to go, and don’t like going back on their word if they find a task. As far as I am aware, the Helcaraxe is the only way to go; Osse won’t help them, as he already drowned some ships, Feanor has burned his ships, the only land bridge is the Helcaraxe.
Obviously the book tells us where to go. But part of the adaptation process includes taking our characters on screen to the places where they end up. If the decision is already made, we have no story.
 
Hm... Well to start with Fingolfin is pissed and bitter at Feanor & Sons, and feels guilty about the Kinslaying. And he's very proud, too proud to bow his head and go back in shame, and let Feanor win. That would be giving up, and also make him a loser. He probably feels trapped -- unwilling to go back, and with a host consisting entirely of those people who already decided not to go back. But with seemingly no way to go forward, either. They "wandered long and miserably" (trying to quote from memory, maybe imprecise) trying to find a solid land bridge. So they spent a while stuck between two bad options, until something finally had to give, one way or the other.

I think the key for characterization is pride, foolhardy courage, and a bitter desire to show up Feanor. They're too naive to understand the peril, and too proud to admit they messed up and ask for pardon. The question of going back has largely been decided in the Doom of Mandos episode, and we discussed motivations and thought processes somewhat then.

So in a sense, they are deciding not between going on and going back, but between the Helkaraxe and "let's keep looking for a better route."
 
Denethor has not died yet. He will likely die in this episode. Feanor will likely still be alive at the end of this episode. The battles are occurring more or less simultaneously though.
Perhaps Feanor begins his pursuit at the end of the episode, the pursuit that leads him directly into the Balrogs?
 
Do Fingolfin and co. know that the Helcaraxe is there before they find it? None of them have been there before, or had any experience of the crossing other than by ship. It is possible that they have been told in Valinor about the shape of the lands (by Ulmo perhaps), although that doesn’t seem to be a given (the Valar generally wouldn’t see much need to cultivate interest in Middle-Earth among the elves.


How inhospitable are we going to make the part of Araman through which they are traveling? I don’t see the elves (or at least their leaders) seriously contemplating going back to Valinor so soon after the Doom, but would any of them be tempted to settle where they are, at least for a time? If we want to have a debate about whether to cross the ice, that might be a more believable alternative. On the other hand, we might want to make Araman so forbidding and hostile that it pushes them on.


I think they should start the crossing of the ice without realizing how arduous it will be. Perhaps they miss the boundary between sea and land in the ice and snow, and cross onto the ice without even knowing it. They look up, and the sheet of ice they are standing on breaks away, and they are suddenly separated from the land by a stretch of water too wide for them to cross. At that point they will have no choice but to go on, and we can see their heroism start to come to the fore.
 
I am not sure how I feel about 'no chance to go back' being a part of this. On one hand, it makes the irrevocable decision clear - once you set out, there is no chance to turn around. That gives the scene a very clear 'Point of No Return,' and there is no need for the Noldor to be second-guessing themselves or for there to be a contingent saying, 'We should turn back!' the entire time they are crossing the Grinding Ice. Also, it fits well with the message of the Valar fencing Valinor against them. Just as the wind blows Fëanor's ships off the coast with a clear, 'Get out!' message, the ice could break with a clear, 'No coming back!' message for Fingolfin. The way is shut.

But....it also feels a bit...fake? to me, to have the ice just make the final decision for them. Not necessarily non-Middle-Earth, where sentient landscape making decisions for you could be a thing, but still...fake. So, I balk at it every time it comes up, and I really don't know what would make me okay with the idea. It's not a bad idea or anything, and I can intellectually understand why to do it, but there is still a part of me cringing over it. Just gotta keep mulling it over, I guess.


As for knowledge of the Helcaraxë, I think the Noldor have *no clue* how bad and extreme it is. They must be aware on some level that there is in fact a way, but do they know it's the Helcaraxë? I'm not so sure. There are a few loremaster types, and the Noldor are into knowledge, so surely someone somewhere has a map. But more importantly, the Helcaraxë is how Morgoth got to Middle Earth, and they are following him. There are some really obvious signs of the passing of Ungoliant - she left bits of darkness spiderweb everywhere. So...as they get farther north...they can pick up her trail.

Araman is a barren and desolate place, but it is not an ice desert. So...not particularly hospitable, and not a place you want to settle down, but...not nearly as harsh/dangerous/bad as the Helcaraxë. Food is an issue in both places. Let's hope the Noldor like fish.
 
But....it also feels a bit...fake? to me, to have the ice just make the final decision for them. Not necessarily non-Middle-Earth, where sentient landscape making decisions for you could be a thing, but still...fake. So, I balk at it every time it comes up, and I really don't know what would make me okay with the idea. It's not a bad idea or anything, and I can intellectually understand why to do it, but there is still a part of me cringing over it. Just gotta keep mulling it over, I guess.

I see our point, and I don't want it to seem fake. And I see no need to suggest that the breaking of the ice is a sentient act by either the ice or the Valar--it is just something that happens in the Grinding Ice. There will inevitably be a point in the journey when the grinding and movement of the ice means that there is no turning back, or at least that turning back is just as dangerous as going forward, and there is natural drama in that that doesn't have to be overplayed. I like the idea of there being a moment where the Noldor suddenly realize how much more dangerous their situation has become.

Food is an issue in both places. Let's hope the Noldor like fish.

It seems food will be an issue from the time the Noldor leave Alqualonde. Whatever we ultimately do to deal with the Sleep of Yavanna, the landscape outside of Valinor will not be lush or as hospitable as it might become after the Sun rises. And after thousands of years in Valinor the Noldor are not exactly used to foraging for food. They will bring some supplies of food for the journey (although perhaps not as much as they should, since Feanor is hurrying their departure) but they will find themselves having to worry about their food supply, probably even before the Feanorians leave. I don't want to portray the Noldor as spoiled children, or spend a lot of screen time on food issues, but I wonder if we show some realization that the Noldor had things pretty easy in Valinor and food is just one of the struggles they will face now that they have left.
 
In Araman, fish will be easier to get than on the Helkaraxe. We discussed under The Sleep of Yavanna that Ulmo could be keeping aquatic ecosystems alive and healthy in the darkness, throughout Middle-earth. But fish and whatever provisions (like lembas) they brought will be all they get. Araman has been dark since the Lamps fell, if they ever actually lit it. It's quite possibly 100% lifeless, except for chemosynthetic bacteria and sea-shore life (tide-pool creatures, vagrant seabirds, maybe even breeding seals or walruses).

Their paradisiacal upbringing and lack of experience will certainly be a problem. It might be less of a problem that the Noldor are not used to hunting or foraging, than their total lack of experience with the sea and fishing. I mean, do any of them even know how to make a fishing-net? But they'll have to learn. Maybe they'll be spear-fishing and harpooning seals. (If you want to justify them having any warm clothing on the ice, sealskins are a good idea.)


I'm certain the Noldor knew the Helkaraxe was there: it's said that before Feanor abandoned Fingolfin, they deemed it "impassible", "whereas" there were not enough ships left for everyone... so they already had gotten to its border, looked at it, and said "No."

But that doesn't mean they had a true understanding of how awful it really would be. How could they? They had only just begun to experience actual physically hardship and suffering, for the first time in their lives.

I don't like the idea of the ice breaking being enough to immediately take away their free will in this. Eventually it will, indeed, become just as dangerous to go back as to go forward, but I want it to be clear that they chose this. In foolhardiness, in valor, in stubbornness, in desperation... they chose this.
 
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Nick and I were discussing a possible solution to the ent problem in Episode 6 (the episode where the ents and the Green Elves are re-introduced).

We know that the ents roam all over Beleriand. We know that the Green Elves stay in Ossiriand. And, of course, the ents end up back with the Green Elves and stay in Ossiriand for the rest of the First Age.

What if...the ents were out wandering/roaming/doing their own thing when Boldog's army advances? They don't realize the Green Elves are in such danger, so they just...aren't there. Denethor dies because the ents weren't on hand to save the day. Considering how frictious the meeting of the ents and dwarves was, it's possible that Denethor even encouraged the ents to travel away from the mountains for awhile, since journeying was the whole point of them coming here in the first place....

The Green Elves would then stay behind to honor whatever treaty Thingol arranged between them and the dwarves to end hostilities.



Basically, we need an excuse to keep the ents out of this battle, because they should be able to trounce an army of untried orcs without even trying. And the ents *would* be there, if they knew the Green elves were in any danger - they are clearly friends and work together closely. So...too far away to get there in time seems to be where the ents are located right now, and we need a reason (preferably an ent-centric reason) for that to be the case.

We could even have the decision to part be made 'hastily,' which would be interestingly un-ent-like....

(Oh, and the entwives - if they are in Beleriand, which they should be - would have to be with the ents still. If they had stayed behind with the elves, they too could have saved the day.)
 
The Ents were hastier in their youth. Not, y'know, hasty by any non-ent standards. But still.
Perhaps with hasty Ents, there is an evolution of the Entish language? Could see the origin of how Old Entish takes a while to say anything, i.e. how long it takes to decide whether or not Merry and Pippin are Orcs. Tolkien did create this world languages first.
 
Yep -- I think the language itself was less slow and laborious in the First Age. But still pretty slow by non-ent standards.

Ah, I love Ents.
 
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