S03E02 Script Discussion

I just mentioned this as an example so I didn’t really think it through. But if it’s possible I’d say she’d have an interaction with Fingon but leave him when she sees her mother dive.
 
There would be a reason for her to be near Fingon, and speaking to him allows us to hear what she's thinking (not just see her shock). Even if it's just a 'We have to save these people!' or 'This is madness!' kind of comment, it allows the audience some insight into her headspace. And there is likely time for that just before the death of Irimë. I don't see her persuading him to act any differently, though.

Basically, I want Galadriel to be the Bilbo-at-the-Battle-of-Five-Armies of the Kinslaying - there, but taken out of commission fairly quickly without actively participating.
 
Basically, I want Galadriel to be the Bilbo-at-the-Battle-of-Five-Armies of the Kinslaying - there, but taken out of commission fairly quickly without actively participating.
How? Getting clonked on the head with a stone? Because that's how Bilbo got knocked out in The Hobbit (book).
 
No, by diving into the water to save someone. It removes her from the fighting just as effectively, though.
 
Well... Galadriel always serms to shun the feanorians. Instead with the other noldor she lives at doriath, or with her brother at nargothrond for a brief time... That does look quite a bit outlawed i think.
 
Well... Galadriel always serms to shun the feanorians. Instead with the other noldor she lives at doriath, or with her brother at nargothrond for a brief time... That does look quite a bit outlawed i think.

A fair point. I would say that if you guys can convince the hosts, we can make the change. Until then, what we have seems the better compromise.
 
I'm certainly willing to add nuance to what we have.

I think that if Galadriel sees her mother take that swan dive, she's going to react to that. But that doesn't need to be the only thing she does, and there's a long harbor full of ongoing battle between where she would come on the scene and that Arch.
 
So we are saying that Fingolfin's host engages before the Teleri open fire on them from the arch? For how long? How does Galadriel avoid being in combat before then?
 
I don’t think Galadriel avoiding the other Noldor is evidence of her being an outlaw or considered a traitor. She’s more in a kind of Húan situation, having grown gradually estranged from them; the Kinslaying is the first shock, then the ships and Helcaraxë.
 
I think that if Galadriel sees her mother take that swan dive, she's going to react to that. But that doesn't need to be the only thing she does, and there's a long harbor full of ongoing battle between where she would come on the scene and that Arch.

Galadriel is very tall and among the strongest of the elves, so it's not like she can crawl on hands and knees through a crowd or slide against a wall. She will have to push through. ... ... But in a way that doesn't harm anyone, I guess... She could grab a shield, and just hold off attacks? (Just brainstorming)
 
Galadriel is very tall and among the strongest of the elves, so it's not like she can crawl on hands and knees through a crowd or slide against a wall. She will have to push through. ... ... But in a way that doesn't harm anyone, I guess... She could grab a shield, and just hold off attacks? (Just brainstorming)

So, what is her objective here? Where is she going?
 
Fingolfin goes around the land side of the harbor to reach the Arch. He does not go through the fighting on the docks or on the boats in the harbor. Surely *some* of the elves with Fingolfin rush down to the docks in dismay as soon as they see the fighting.

My point was that if Galadriel's first thought was 'Oh no, stop this fighting!' and she rushed down into the quays, then she would not be near the Arch. If she is with Fingolfin and Irime, though, she will be at the Arch when the swan dive happens.

So, if we do give her something else to do 'on the way', we should consider the logistics, that's all.
 
I have to confess I don't have the Alqualondë map in front of me and can certainly not visualize it. But according to your outline, Galadriel is not on the Arch when she jumps:
Fingolfin's host comes upon the scene in the harbor. He sees the Teleri shooting from the Arch and takes some of his force to put a stop to that (the rest go to the piers to back up the Noldor still fighting there). Maedhros leads a force to try to take the other side of the Arch. The archers turn on Fingolfin's (lightly armored) host. Irimë dies from an arrow. Fingolfin goes mad and charges into the archers with his sword. Earwen takes a swan dive off the Arch. Galadriel drops her sword and shield and runs down to the base of the Arch, diving into the water to try to save her mother.
 
I have to confess I don't have the Alqualondë map in front of me and can certainly not visualize it. But according to your outline, Galadriel is not on the Arch when she jumps:

Sorry that is not specific. We had her on the arch, then running down to the base from above in order to dive into the water more safely.
 
Fingolfin goes around the land side of the harbor to reach the Arch. He does not go through the fighting on the docks or on the boats in the harbor. Surely *some* of the elves with Fingolfin rush down to the docks in dismay as soon as they see the fighting.

My point was that if Galadriel's first thought was 'Oh no, stop this fighting!' and she rushed down into the quays, then she would not be near the Arch. If she is with Fingolfin and Irime, though, she will be at the Arch when the swan dive happens.

So, if we do give her something else to do 'on the way', we should consider the logistics, that's all.

I suppose it kind of depends on how big the city is.

Haerengil made a pretty decent map of his conception of Aqualonde here:
https://forums.signumuniversity.org/index.php?threads/alqualonde.655/

The only problem I have with it is that it is too defensible for a community erected in a state of peace. And it makes it too difficult for Fingolfin to even get into the area to see what is happening without meeting armed resistance. There would have to be some sort of approach to the bay that did not have to go through a walled city to get there.
 
I don’t know if I can bear to read any more of this project, let alone this thread. I will only make 2 more points.



Galadriel is a talented telepath with “marvellous Gift of insight into the minds of others”. She loves the Teleri, especially her mother, and she has distrusted and disliked Fëanor all her life. Indeed she hates the darkness she perceives in him. And she just heard him and his sons swear an Oath that they’re willing to murder anyone, including Elves, to get what they want. She is extremely unlikely to assume a priori that Fëanor is innocent and the Teleri attacked unprovoked. Everything she has believed and felt all her life, and all that she has witnessed in the rebellion, point towards the opposite conclusion. When Fëanor, or Maedhros, is trying to kill her mother it is utterly absurd to claim she instantly sides with Fëanor and helps try to kill Eärwen.


It would be vastly better for her to arrive too late to do anything, with her brothers and father -- or even to show her standing there doing nothing, with the stupidest facial expression you can describe* -- than to side with Fëanor and try to slaughter the Teleri, let alone charge up the Arch at her own mother with drawn weapon.

*This is NOT directed at Marielle nor a representation of her earlier suggestions. A reducto ad absurdem is better than Kinslayer Galadriel.
 
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Faelivrin, I am sorry that this discussion has been so upsetting.

I agree with you that Galadriel is not on Fëanor's side. We have included the scene where she tells him off as a 10-year-old when he asks for a lock of her hair in Season 2. We have also shown her visiting Alqualondë and expressing a much closer relationship with her Teleri cousins than with her Fëanorean half-cousins (whom she dislikes). We have shown her being friendly with Aredhel (and Idril), and spending time with her brothers, but that is all. Her motivation for leaving obviously has nothing to do with Fëanor's oath or revenge.

We have not, however, chosen to go with the version of the story where she sails to Middle Earth separately from the host of the Noldor. So, she does leave Tirion with the other Noldor, which is as least ostensibly under the direction of Fëanor. Her own father's advice was not heeded. Therefore, we are left with a situation where, in the aftermath of the Kinslaying and the Doom of Mandos, Galadriel will choose to continue forward, towards her own dream of realms in Middle Earth. At that time, the only way to get there is on the stolen ships of the Teleri. So, despite Galadriel's personal connection to the Teleri, she does not distance herself from the Kinslaying so far as to refuse passage to Middle Earth on the stolen ships, or to turn back to Valinor.

Granted, in the end, she will cross the Helcaraxë with the rest of Fingolfin's host, so she will never have to actually set foot on a stolen ship. But we do have to keep in mind all of her decisions at this time - the host of Fingolfin does not know they will be betrayed (even though Mandos *just* told them they would be).

I actually do at least partially agree with you - I do not want Galadriel drawing a weapon or fighting in the Kinslaying at all. I am fine with her trying to save someone - and preferably in the water, not in the middle of a fight. Earwen does seem to be the obvious choice, but another random Teleri would be fine.

I think that it is also clear that Galadriel would not try to kill her mother. Fingolfin's goal is to stop the Teleri archers; no doubt he uses words first. Galadriel does not need to draw her sword or join in a charge to be nearby. The *only* thing our outline specifies is that she is there, and that she jumps in the water to save her mother.

I know there is a version of the story where she joins in the fighting on the behalf of the Teleri. There are no doubt ways to make this work out as well. But we were told to take this a different direction, so we are trying to work within the parameters given (barely - we do go against what we are told from time to time). Obviously, this is a very touchy subject - and not just for you, I think a lot of people care very much about how Galadriel's perceived guilt is handled here. We have made Galadriel less guilty than instructed, and Huan more guilty than instructed. But this is just a first draft, and we can, of course *change* all of this. We will also (at some point in the near future) submit all of these outlines to the Execs and see what ideas they like, and which parts of this they veto. I am quite certain that they will not accept this particular outline as-is.
 
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