OK, now I feel like I understand more clearly your thoughts, and/or we're converging towards agreement.
Yes, sounds good to me! I am fine with Saeros and Eol being in either Episode 12 or 13, wherever they fit. As minor storylines, it's not important that they be part of the climatic episode, but it isn't a problem if they do. What *must* happen in Episode 13 is for Thingol to get news that the Noldor have arrived in the north (presumably from Círdan).
Spiders
The battle in Doriath with the spiders will certainly not take up most of two episodes, but will occupy a few scenes in both E11 and E12. This will give the Doriath plotline the maximum amount of time to pay off. We do not need to see a bunch of different strategies try and fail, but seeing the spiders nearly penetrate the defenses of Menegroth until Daeron, Luthien, and later Melian get involved, and also seeing Thingol's returning army nearly over-run by the creatures will serve to illustrate just how dangerous these enemies are. This is our B-C plot through E11 and E12, and Doriath is bumped to the C-D plot in E13.
OK, it it’s 1-2 scenes in each episode that sounds
a lot more manageable to me. Or 2-5 scenes in Ep 12, or 1 scene in Ep 11 and 1-4 scenes in Ep 12 (if it’s alright to discuss the exact timing during the Ep 11 scripting session).
The Parley
It looks like we are all agreeing that Maedhros can be captured and in Angband before Fingolfin and the Moon arrive, which can go at the very end of Episode 12, if I read you both right. That’s great.
And I do want to try to at least begin it the parley in Ep 11, which I think Nick is suggesting. Otherwise, yes – the Fëanorians don’t have much to do for the rest of Ep. 11 except argue with each other while they set up camp. Well, Fëanor’s funeral and maybe crowning Maedhros, but that seems likely to be either brief or boring.
There are some items to time together - and the arrival of the Host of Fingolfin in Beleriand pairing with the Rising of the Moon could work. I think the Moon rises at the end of the episode.
I thought it rose right while they stepped off the Helkaraxë onto solid land. At least, that was always the way I interpreted that part of the book. We are going to need some more Helkaraxë scenes, both with the aurora and with suffering through cold and starvation and dwindling supplies, hopefully with time for vengeful comments by Turgon, Angrod, Galadriel, etc. So, Fingolfin probably needs to arrive in Middle-earth at the end of Episode 12, anyway.
He _will_, however, witness the rising of the sun from atop Thangorodrim, and hear the assault on the gates of Angband below him. As to the second parley... I would honestly rather cut it than have it cause a problem. It adds comparatively little to the story. But the book suggests that it happened at the Feanorian camp in Hithlum anyway, and it need not interfere with anything if we include it.
Well, the second negotiation with the sons of Fëanor isn’t a really really big deal, but it does add something that Maedhros can yell at/argue with them about after somebody other than his brothers rescues him, so we could make family drama out of it later. I would rather try to fit it in before the Moon-rise rather than try to have messengers crossing the plain (under the Moon which hurts them?) but not running into Fingolfin’s host while they also cross the plain. That wouldn’t “wrap up” the Fëanorians in Ep 12 because we still have to depict Maedhros actually in Angband in Ep 13. In fact, since you’re both against putting him on Thangorodrim in Ep 12 and I will give in about it, we don’t even have to reveal he’s actually alive until Ep 13. If the Balrogs burned and hacked most of the bodies and threw his gear on the ground, his brothers can’t even necessarily be certain his body isn’t somewhere on the battlefield.
But then again, part of the point is to try to trick the Fëanorians into withdrawing from Beleriand, so it’s probably in Morgoth’s best interest to convince them Maedhros is still alive. Still, they don’t know for sure...
Fingolfin's Host
Should arrive in Middle-Earth, I think, at the end of E12, after the parley itself has concluded. This will give us reason to indicate that by the beginning of E13, some time has passed for them, and they begin their assault on Angband with renewed vigor. They should not arrive in Mithrim until the very end of the episode, because all we have time to do is tease at the potential conflict between the hosts. We should not engage with that plot point until S04. And to answer Faelivrin's question about the rescue of Maedhros being the first thing that happens in S04.... it should happen in the first episode, but the rescue should not be accomplished until the end.
This all makes sense/looks great to me.
Do you think it would be possible to use the way that they look less exhausted in Ep 13 as a way to indicate time has passed, or is that too subtle to be noticeable?
The Host of Fëanor finding out about the Host of Fingolfin should be a major point of Episode 13, it is true.
If Fingolfin reaches Middle-earth at the end of Ep 12, then the soonest the Fëanorians can figure out he’s there is in Ep 13.
Regarding scouts watching the Helcaraxe: isn't that kind of like having a burglar alarm on your toilet? It's technically an entrance to your home, but as far as you know nobody can come in that way, and even if they could they wouldn't want to.
LOL
But no, I didn’t mean they have scouts actually watching the Ice, I just meant they probably have scouts in the mountains watching the plain where the hordes of Orcs and Balrogs just came from. If a huge host of Elves carrying torches or glistening in the moonlight starts moving across the plain, they’ll probably be noticeable. Elves have good eyesight and (I think) the plain of Ard-Galen is narrower north-to-south than it is east-to-west, yet Fingon could see Maedhros’ army at Aglon all the way from Eithel Sirion. So, I don’t think it’s far-fetched for Fëanorian scouts to know an army of somebody has suddenly come in from the west and is crossing the plain right before their eyes. The scouts won’t automatically know who or what this host is, but if it’s coming from the direction of the Ice, it might be Ñoldor.
I agree that they wouldn’t make contact with each other, rather the Fëanorians would avoid contact. But once they know or suspect Fingolfin has crossed the Ice, they will react somehow, even before it’s apparent that Fingolfin is planning to become their next-door neighbor.
The Sun and Moon
We should deal with the creation of the Sun and Moon as a major plot in E12.
Do you mean their arising? I thought they get made and assigned to their Maiar keepers in Ep 11.
The most dramatic time for the sun to rise is at the Act 3-4 break in E13, coming up behind the Host of Fingolfin. If, however, we follow the pattern of the text, it will rise as Fingolfin is setting up shop in Hithlum. It could feel dangerously anti-climactic if we are not extremely careful in how this is done.
Fingolfin doesn’t march to Thangorodrim until Ep 13, right? The Sun doesn’t necessarily have to rise when he gets there, but it could... then we don’t need to script 2 separate reaction shots from Maedhros, which might get repetitive otherwise.
Another option is that it rises just as Fingolfin arrives at Mithrim and it looks like he might want to start a fight... because it’s a dramatic tension moment. But, on the other hand, maybe putting the Sun there would distract from the down-to-earth angry-Ñoldor tension.