Session 4.02 - Season 4 Episode Outlines

Maybe we have a single scene with Eol establishing that he lives in Nan Elmoth, and Luthien recalls seeing a similar sword in Thingol’s armory. Luthien then looks at the sword again when she returns to Menegroth, and senses that this sword will have a part to play...
 
Maybe Eöl lives in Mt Rerir or close to it and has to move, or feels that it gets crowded, when Caranthir arrives.
 
To begin with, yes, he must have come from the East, and we should not know why. But from the moment he enters our story he has to act in a way that doesn’t make him a total mystery. Now for the record, I love stories that don’t explain everything (or anything, at least for a while), so I can see him being some kind of unknown force in Beleriand. But I guess that the consensus is that he should have a story. So this season, he has to:
1. Be introduced
2. Mingle with Dwarves
3. Want to move to Nan Elmoth
4. Create the two black swords
5. Buy Nan Elmoth with one of the swords

This has to be timed so that it doesn’t feel out of place, and tied at least loosely to the next season. He doesn’t have to be in e13 but probably in e11 (or not later anyway).

The events above (and I probably forgot something) don’t have to be separate but can happen together. For example, Eöl could be seen asking for Nan Elmoth in one episode and then forging swords and offering one to Thingol in a second episode, and that’s it. Probably though, we will have to use three episodes. One for introducing him and showing him asking for Nan Elmoth (and he could be accompanied with a couple of Dwarves). Then a second where he creates the swords and has a conflict with Telchar. Then a scene where he offers the sword to Thingol, who accepts it. I think mixing his story with Luthien’s would only complicate things, I feel it would be unnecessary. Let’s give her something separate, something to do with Doriath. It doesn’t have to take a lot of time, we just have to be reminded that she’s there, and at best get a foreshadowing of what will come to pass.
 
To begin with, yes, he must have come from the East, and we should not know why. But from the moment he enters our story he has to act in a way that doesn’t make him a total mystery. Now for the record, I love stories that don’t explain everything (or anything, at least for a while), so I can see him being some kind of unknown force in Beleriand. But I guess that the consensus is that he should have a story. So this season, he has to:
1. Be introduced
2. Mingle with Dwarves
3. Want to move to Nan Elmoth
4. Create the two black swords
5. Buy Nan Elmoth with one of the swords

This has to be timed so that it doesn’t feel out of place, and tied at least loosely to the next season. He doesn’t have to be in e13 but probably in e11 (or not later anyway).

The events above (and I probably forgot something) don’t have to be separate but can happen together. For example, Eöl could be seen asking for Nan Elmoth in one episode and then forging swords and offering one to Thingol in a second episode, and that’s it. Probably though, we will have to use three episodes. One for introducing him and showing him asking for Nan Elmoth (and he could be accompanied with a couple of Dwarves). Then a second where he creates the swords and has a conflict with Telchar. Then a scene where he offers the sword to Thingol, who accepts it. I think mixing his story with Luthien’s would only complicate things, I feel it would be unnecessary. Let’s give her something separate, something to do with Doriath. It doesn’t have to take a lot of time, we just have to be reminded that she’s there, and at best get a foreshadowing of what will come to pass.
Maybe the conflict between Eol and Telchar could be over quantity vs quality?
 
Maybe the conflict between Eol and Telchar could be over quantity vs quality?
That would be surprising. Both would argue for quality above quantity. No, the s3 idea that Telchar doesn’t like the black swords is a good one, let’s stick to that.
 
I'm still trying to catch up with the older pages of this thread. I don't think I can keep up with the pace at which other people are posting. :(


Regarding the Nauglamir, something occurred to me. When Thingol bans people from wearing jewels, who does the ban apply to? Only to the Sindar, or does he decree "Henceforth my people shall hold all who wear gems of the earth as betrayers of kin, and slayers of kin unrepentant." ? If the decree applies to the Noldor (like the Quenya ban) then Finrod can't wear the Nauglamir, or have it made for him. Since he respects Thingol he wouldn't want to circumvent that, not when so many of his own followers end up being Sindar. That would be a good reason for the Dwarves to make the Necklace for Thingol, not for Finrod. And as I've suggested before, Zirak can make something else for Finrod.

Regarding killing the Petty-Dwarves, Tolkien said that the other Dwarves were *not* OK with this, and were pissed at the Sindar for it.

To me it’s not important that she confesses to him, more that he sees her pain and handles that in a considerate way. I could accept a version of Amysrevenge’s idea but I’m reluctant to stray too far from the process that’s described in the book. An alternative could be that she shows him something telepathically, just a few images, not the whole truth, but that would also be strange in her character. She’s so proud, and that usually doesn’t match with telling people about your faults (or crimes!)
What if Galadriel shows Celeborn a few images from the kinslaying that doesn't show what's really going on? Maybe the death of Earwen? She's mourning the death of her mother, right?
I think these two suggestions, together, are a good way to handle it. She wouldn't tell Celeborn about the Kinslaying or the ships, but his consideration and sensitivity towards her obvious pain would lead to her opening up to him a little, telling or showing that her mother died and she tried to save her. And if Celeborn does tell Thingol about his niece's death, that would inadvertently invite rumors, without changing what's in the book.

Haakon is concerned about Galadriel not showing Celeborn the whole story, but Galadriel does exactly that with Melian in the Silmarillion. So it is well within her character. The Noldor are either hiding their bad deeds out of shame, or to protect their fellow Noldor because they're trying to honor the idea that the feud is over and the Feanorians are forgiven.

I think Fingolfin's folk should meet the Feanorians and the Sindar in Ep 1, with Celeborn sending Annael to Doriath that episode, and take time to show that Sindarin and Quenya are separate languages and there is a language barrier (which Finrod crosses absurdly easily, but others have to actually learn Sindarin the normal way).

Episode 2, or the tail end of Episode 1, is when Fingon should rescue Maedhros. Episode 2 should include Finrod sending Angrod as a messenger to Thingol.

I agree that the rumors Morgoth sets among the Sindar (via spies) should have an episode to build up and cause problems after Galadriel tells Melian about the Silmarils, before Angrod finally spills all the beans to Thingol. These rumors would involve the ship-burning and the Kinslaying, and... they'd probably contain a lot of the truth, but mixed with lies since they come from Morgoth. In the rumors, all the Noldor joined the Kinslaying, killed Olwe and all his family, sailed together to Middle-earth, and burned the ships just to spite the Teleri.

I don't think the Noldor should lie, except by omission.
 
Still trying to catch up. Responding in this way is confusing me and fuzzing up my brain, I think. I apologize if I accidentally repeat myself or respond to an idea that has been dropped.

About the idea that Galadriel shows Celeborn an image: I find it a little bit problematic. Why does she tell someone she's just met this picture? Ok, it could work if they're already in love. Only then.
But then, why does she show him just a part of the story? It would be like lying. Why would she lie to a man she's just fallen in love with? Ok, it would work if he stops her, or if she doesn't have the power to continue... No, not the latter, that's not Galadriel. So only if he stops her. But then, why show her the death of her mother? It seems manipulative, doesn't it?
Galadriel wouldn't want to tell the truth about the Kinslaying because, well, one could blame Fingolfin and Fingon's charge directly for Earwen's death, and she loves her uncle and cousin too much to get them in trouble like that. Plus, Fingolfin can give orders that they are not going to get the Sindar involved in the feud between the Houses, or give them reason to fear or hate the Noldor.

I think that having the Noldor lie makes sense. At this point in the story, they're a bit ashamed of how their rebellion played out. They are running into people who have never murdered anyone, and faced with that innocence, they naturally feel a bit guilty and defensive.

But, yes - the nuance of *what* lies, *what* silences, *what* speculation on the part of the Sindar.
We want there to be a false foundation, built up and covered over by more and more dishonesty, until the house of cards comes tumbling down and the truth is revealed.

What is suspicious? What doesn't add up? Who has a guilty conscience and speaks up? Or who chooses to reveal truths to make others look bad? The simmering tension between the camp of Fingolfin and the camp of the Fëanoreans in episode 1 is *not* resolved with the crowning of Fingolfin in episode 2 - that simmering continues on. One does not easily set aside the ordeal of the crossing of the Helcaraxë, and if one were personally guiltless in the Kinslaying....
I think the Noldor say that they came to destroy Morgoth, avenge the Two Trees, and deliver Middle-earth from evil. They don't say how or why they got to Middle-earth, and allow the Sindar to imagine they're emissaries of the Valar, but don't dare say outright that they are emissaries -- the Valar are already mad enough at them! What's suspicious is, well, they won't talk about their immediate past or how they got here. The gaps in their story invite speculation. The Sindar can also see that they're divided into two camps and not behaving like best buddies, which invites more speculation. I think the Sindar are giving them the benefit of the doubt at first -- they can't imagine something like the Kinslaying, and these people did just crush the huge armies of terrible enemies who were poised to wipe out their civilization. But they wait for a message from the Valar, and from Olwe, they ask about the Teleri and what news the Noldor can bring... and none of the Noldor provides anything. They give evasive answers or none at all. They say they don't want to talk much about the Darkening of Valinor because it was so awful (which it was). The Sindar gradually realize they're behaving like people who have something to hide, but this won't be apparent immediately.

I don't think anyone except Angrod reveals the truth. In the book the rumors about the Kinslaying come entirely from Morgoth, not from the Noldor. He uses the Sindar to receive and amplify his rumors, knowing that they're less familiar with his ways than the Noldor are. Cirdan hears the rumors and believes that the Noldorin houses are spreading rumors about each other out of jealousy. He sends messengers to Thingol telling all he learned.


This is my attempt at a suggested outline. My suggestion is that Noldor meeting Sindar, and the feud between the Houses, both be present with significant focus in both Ep 1 and Ep 2. That is, both eps have an A plot and a B plot. I admit I'm having trouble mentally processing the theme concepts and how to do tension, but I do feel strongly about keeping the events in order. I think this is similar to one of MithLuin's outlines, but I'm not sure.

Episode 1:
Maglor hastily moves the Feanorian camp out of Fingolfin's way. The host of Fingolfin meet both the Feanorians and Cirdan's Sindarin scouts. On the one hand are people who barely tolerate each other and come very close to exchanging blows, but do want to exchange news. On the other hand is a real language barrier (which I do not want to ignore this time).

Fingolfin learns Feanor is dead, but he and nearly everyone in his camp judges the sons the accomplices of their father. Fingolfin reforges Ringil, and it's ambiguous whether he's planning to fight the Feanorians. "there was peril of war between the hosts". Fingon and Finrod both point out that Morgoth could attack any day now, nobody knows how many Orcs he has left, and as long as the Noldor are divided they could all be killed. But nobody wants to listen to them. Meanwhile, among the Feanorians Maglor and many of the common folk do repent of abandoning Fingolfin's people and burning the ships, but don't have a good idea what to do about that.

Nobody mentions the Kinslaying to the Sindar, because some of Fingolfin's host were party to it and they realize these people are akin to the Teleri -- their language alone shows that. Galadriel and Celeborn meet for the first time and have good impressions of each other, but at this stage only basic communication is possible (not Me Tarzan You Jane. Gramatically correct but short, simple sentences without nuance or detail, no fancy words). I think that we should show the Noldor getting more expressive with Sindarin gradually, during the first 2 or 3 episodes. Cirdan sends Annael to Doriath as a messenger, announcing that strange Elves from Aman have come and killed many Orcs and Werewolves, delivering the Falathrim from danger. He and Celeborn and their crew take their one ship (they only brought one) to Balar to tell the Falathrim the news. Cirdan gladly welcomes the Noldor, but Thingol is more cautious, and doesn't welcome them with a full heart. He's understandably concerned they may try to take inhabited lands for themselves, but his misgiving and resentment is more than that.

Angband scene: After the initial shock of the Sunrise and the obliteration of his army wears off, "Morgoth laughed at the division of his enemies" and starts preparing for war. Forges produce new weapons, and new smoke to hide Angband and Dor Daedeloth from the Sun. Morgoth is putting on a false confidence (the Sun terrifies him!) but the Noldor are looking pretty pathetic. He can make new Orcs faster than they can make new Elves, and Feanor is dead. (Morgoth's preparations can be an ominous episode ending, if not the forging of Ringil or rescue of Maedhros.)

Some time passes before Fingon rescues Maedhros, while the rest of the above happens. We show seasons passing. The rescue is an early demonstration of teamwork making people stronger -- this would have been impossible without Thorondor's help. Fingon could do this at the end of Ep 1, or the start of Ep 2. I'm not sure where it would fit best. Ep 2 allows the tension between the Noldor a little more time, but then gives us less time to show the process of reconciliation. The trouble with using Ep 2 is that it's a climactic event, and I remember Nick saying climaxes have to be the end of an episode, not its start.

Episode 2:
The two camps of the Noldor are trying to reconcile, but tensions continue. Maedhros is recuperating, which takes a while. His brothers are all very glad to see him, and probably all of them are at least a little grateful to Fingon. (Although somebody is going to rudely ask, "What, Fingon couldn't manage to bring back all of him?") The Noldor station permanent watchmen to keep an eye on Dor-Daedeloth and Thangorodrim. They send many scouts around Beleriand, Ard Galen, and Dorthonion. Maps are drawn up showing what lands the Noldor could settle on, and the location of Angband -- the Sindar are able to provide some information as well, although maybe they don't bother with maps because they know the land so well. The Noldor meet a much larger number of Falathrim, who sail up Drengist in multiple ships to meet their saviors. The Noldor try to present a united front to the Sindar, and meet a larger number of them. Finrod sends Angrod to Doriath as an official ambassador, with a Sinda guide (this is separate from Cirdan sending his earlier messenger.) Finrod and Angrod are, so far, sincere about trying to accept reconciliation and forgive people. Galadriel is probably trying as well, but is not quite as forgiving as Finrod. Turgon is having nothing of this forgiveness thing. More conversations between her and Celeborn.

Doriath: Angrod's version of the Noldorin story is extremely whitewashed. Angrod tells Thingol of their numbers and "the ordering of their force", and their deeds in the North against Morgoth's Orcs. But he has decided to forgive the Feanorians and be loyal to the Noldor, so he mentions no wrongdoing. He tell Thingol about the Darkening of Valinor, but avoids mentioning the Silmarils. It's also hard to mention Finwe died without getting into the current succession crisis, which is an embarrassing situation. (I think I see why our ideas about the order to tell these events differ: The Quenta Silmarillion implies this happened after Maedhros abdicated, but the Grey Annals tells it in a different order, with Angrod's arrival in Doriath the year before Maedhros abdicates.)

Meanwhile in Angband, everyone is very concerned by Thorondor's involvement in the rescue. (Had the Eagles been sighted before now? They'll be a surprise to the audience and the Elves, but when did they actually come to Middle-earth?)

either Episode 2 or 3 (end of 2 or start of 3) :
Maedhros returns the goods and livestock stolen from Fingolfin's people (except what was burned), gives many rich gifts as well, and "begs forgiveness" for what his people did to Fingolfin's people (even theough he himself wasn't involved in burning the ships).

The council at which the Noldor decide what to do from now on. Angrod returns with Thingol's message. Maedhros says disparaging things about Thingol, and Caranthir says even more disparaging things about Thingol and the entire House of Finarfin. But Fingolfin intends to respect Thingol as the High King of Beleriand, and is in awe of a man who was chosen to marry a Maia. Maedhros sternly rebukes Caranthir - I don't think he makes a show of physical strength by dragging his brother out (he's far from 100%) but cows his brothers with hard words and very stern looks. He's scary when he's mad.

Episode 3:
Maedhros realizes this reconciliation isn't going to work without his giving up his claim the crown, which he does. We could make it a total surprise to the audicence by showing it from Fingolfin, Fingon, or Finrod's perspective. Afterwards, our point-of-view character considers that none of the other sons of Feanor looked surprised or said anything to oppose Maedhros' abdication. The point-of-view character asks Maedhros (aside) "you planned this all out, didn't you?" and he replies that he had to make it clear to his brothers he wouldn't allow them to interfere. What exactly he said to them, and when, wouldn't have to be specified. We can demonstrate how he can get them under control with how he handles Caranthir's outburst.

Fingolfin gives kingly advice about settling and building new kingdoms. Using the maps drawn in Episode 2, the Noldor decide where each House will settle, with Maedhros specifically choosing the east. This isolation isn't ideal, but it's necessary to reduce the chances of conflict. He promises to stay in touch so they Noldor can continue to coordinate. Finrod expresses a desire and exciement to explore all of Beleriand personally, not just vicariously through the scouts. He longs to visit Doriath and see the Thousand Caves for himself (Angrod has described how amazing they are.)

This episode may have time to show most of "Of Beleriand ands its Realms," other than the founding of Gondolin and Nargothrond.

Later Episodes
I very, very much want to get Eol's story told in flashback, and fairly early, rather than spread it out over multiple episodes in real time. I strongly disagree with that aspect of MithLuin’s outlines.

As for Mereth Aderthad, I agree it's a good idea to include Celeborn and Beleg, in addition to Mablung and Daeron. Perhaps Celeborn's family comes too (I'd still like to make them characters). We don't have many episodes in which to show Galadriel's friendship with Celeborn grow into love, so using the Feast to advance that plot is good. In any case the party from Doriath should be notably small -- smaller than the number of Feanorians or even Nandor who attend.

After Mereth Aderthad is the Finrod and Turgon focus episode, in which Ulmo sends them dreams, and then Finrod visits Doriath, sees how awesome Menegroth is, and decides he wants a cool underground fortress, too.

I think Morgoth himself should start the Dagor Aglareb by sending his rebuilt armies to attack the Noldor. Whoever went to Hildorien has returned to Angband by then.

I'm concerned because so far in these outlines, we haven't given thought to showing how Morgoth uses captured Noldor by letting them "escape" as spies. Morgoth's constant attempts to divide his enemies is the counterpoint to the theme of this season, right? I think that if possible, we should show the use of "escaped" slaves as spies, and why the Noldor and Sindar stop allowing refugees to return to their homelands. I don't have a good suggestion how to show it, though.

Thinking about it more - do we deliberately go out of our way to insert her into ongoing stories, the way Galadriel was retroactively wedged into pre-existing stories by The Man himself (possibly in anticipation of a never completed re-write)? Like, do we give her a prominent on-screen role during any battles, or maybe are the master-apprentice sessions between Melian and Galadriel also attended by Luthien, making a strange three-way dynamic? Does Thingol send her out on errands the way he sends out Celeborn, Beleg, and Mablung? I'm just wildly throwing darts here...
I don't think Luthien should fight, ever. We'll have chance enough to show that she's mighty indeed, when she needs to be -- but she's a woman of peace and probably a healer like her mother.

I think Galadriel can partake in battles before she goes to Doriath. When does she go there? Afterwards, she'll stay put, develop a strong master-apprentice relationship with Melian, and grow wiser and more powerful. She also gets to know Daeron, Luthien, and Celeborn's brother and father. We can develop Luthien and Daeron at the same time, show them having a friendship with Galadriel.

I like the idea that Luthien wants to go to the Feast of Reuniting, but I think Thingol should forbid her from going. And she's willing to obey him on that. She does respect her father, of course -- their relationship isn't one with problems (yet).

Luthien's reaction to the Kinslaying has to consider Melian's advice, which is that the Noldor cannot possibly keep Morgoth restrained forever, and that the Curse and not-entirely-healed feud among them can have dangerous consequences for outsiders who get too tangled with the Noldor. Luthien probably respects her mother's advice more than Thingol does. Yet she remains friends with Galadriel, and I think Finrod too. This is also the woman who forbid Beren from strangling Curufin to death, even after everything he and Celegorm had done, even the minute after they tried to murder Beren (again) and kidnap Luthien (again). Her conduct now should be in keeping with that wisdom she shows later.
 
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I understand that Finrod and Turgon's dreams come chronologically before the Dagor Aglareb, but our instructions for laying out these episodes was to have that come after. The initial Sindar/Noldor relations (and reveal of the Kinslaying) will all happen *before* they build their secret cities in the latter half of the Season. I know it's a lot to keep up with, and I will certainly mention your idea of telling Eöl's story in a single Eöl-centric episode in this Friday's session.

Releasing the enthralled prisoners is very much Morgoth's doing, so that will have to be part of the Angband plotline while he is in residence. So, if Sauron is sent to the East to corrupt Men, then Morgoth can stay in Angband and corrupt captive elves. We can show a raiding party capturing the elves, then an allusion to torture, but more significantly the scene showing how the prisoners are now cowed and obedient to him. Then...they're released. It can be a long-term ploy; the elves don't have to figure out there is anything wrong until much later. If anything, Maedhros came back more-or-less okay, so..... [Maedhros came back missing a hand and having the appearance of one who returns from the dead, so for a *very* loose definition of 'okay'!] But I agree we should try to work this in, rather than have the story be 'Morgoth broods and makes dragons'.
 
If the bad guys tell us about Men or show us dragons, the audience will know before the Noldor. If we see petty-dwarves in Nargothrond, we'll know what they are before the elves in East-Beleriand meet them. The audience may discover that dwarves are mortal long before elves figure that out. Etc.]
I'm OK with showing the Petty-Dwarves early, because doing it the other way will make them look tacked on. They actually were tacked on by Tolkien, but we want to avoid showing that.

Dragons, I think, will have more impact if they come as a total surprise. Morgoth reacts to Dagor Aglareb with dismay, but not like a warlord who has been hopelessly defeated. He has time to spare planning new ideas. The project to create dragons can be referenced cryptically, without either showing or saying explicitly that Morgoth is creating Dragons, (let alone trying to show how.) After all, there's no name for them yet. Then when Glaurung attacks Ard-Galen and breaks into Hithlum, it has maximum impact.

If anything, Maedhros came back more-or-less okay, so..... [Maedhros came back missing a hand and having the appearance of one who returns from the dead, so for a *very* loose definition of 'okay'!]
Well, and horrendously traumatized. But certainly free-willed. (I still think it's a mistake to completely avoid the concept of mental illness in this series. Depicting somebody suffering that much with no lasting trauma, no nightmares or lasting emotional pain, wouldn't make sense.)

So, the theme is the 'stronger together' idea where people who have differences have to learn to work together (just like in Season 1), but now there is an added layer of forgiveness of wrongs that was not present in the simple 'creative collaboration' storyline of the first season. These are groups that have reasons to dislike one another because people have been killed, but they (overall) are choosing not to get into feuds over it. Sorta. I think the main proponents of this theme should be Círdan, Finrod, and Galadriel. Círdan is (at the end of the day) more willing to collaborate with the Noldor than any other Sindar (even Beleg and Mablung are on more of a 'personal' level about it). Finrod is *everyone's* friend. And Galadriel is learning from Melian that it is wiser to use your personal insight in an empathetic way (or something - I'm not entirely sure where the line between Melian's wisdom and Galadriel's wisdom should be). If Azaghal is making alliances with the Noldor, then he could be the dwarvish voice for this
Fingon, Fingolfin, and Maedhros are also proponents of this idea, but of course not the focus of the season.

The story should be saying that choosing isolation and cutting off ties is a negative thing, which at the very least casts a bit of a pall over Turgon's Gondolin, but should be most obvious in Eöl's Nan Elmoth.
I agree, in part. Eol is messed up, of course. Turgon... how do we balance this? He's chosen by Ulmo and warned to hide and not trust in the might of the Noldor forever. But he's also being antisocial, in part because he's not willing to forgive the Feanorians and act like nothing happened.

I do like Faelivrin's idea of using Episode 4 for some Eöl-centric back story. Just...don't know what that back story would *be* yet. I assume he knows the dwarves, and has been interacting with them, but what brings on the whole I-want-Nan-Elmoth situation? Was he living there already? Was he living somewhere else and then got chased away by the horrid new sunlight?
I can't recall what my suggestions were during Season 3. I think he reacts to the Girdle, the Orcs, and the Sunlight by moving from somewhere to somewhere else.

Eöl
...
I think mixing his story with Luthien’s would only complicate things, I feel it would be unnecessary. Let’s give her something separate, something to do with Doriath. It doesn’t have to take a lot of time, we just have to be reminded that she’s there, and at best get a foreshadowing of what will come to pass.
I agree with you about that. Let's not mix Eol with Luthien's story. I still think that a flashback to the fighting and establishment of Doriath, and the Sun immediately afterwards, will make more sense than trying to give Eol a totally new story that has no resemblance to what happened in the books because it happens after all the Noldor are already established in all their kingdoms.

A possible start for Episode 4:
The "now" plotline is the Noldor taking various land (in the northern areas only) for themselves,and building fortresses. Eol, already in Nan Elmoth, is very displeased by his new neighbors. He and his servants came to Nan Elmoth to get away from tiresome and arrogant people, not to meet new ones!

The flashback plotline is how Eol got to Nan Elmoth. There doesn't need to be a ton of detail; we can leave it mysterious how and why he came to Beleriand in the first place.
 
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Everyone, I apologize for posting so many times in a row. It isn't because I want to dominate the conversation, only that I'm getting caught up on replying to the whole thread. I think... I am caught up now?

I understand that Finrod and Turgon's dreams come chronologically before the Dagor Aglareb, but our instructions for laying out these episodes was to have that come after.
Alright I'll keep that in mind. *nods*

If you are willing to try to convince the Hosts to let Eol's story be a flashback, I would greatly appreciate it, so so much (I can't find the post where you said that, though). The arguments I made for why I think we need to tell his story this way are here: https://forums.signumuniversity.org...erns-about-season-four.2627/page-3#post-21819


Here's my idea/suggestion for Eol's backstory. There are 2 things I didn't figure out:
1. How to work his falling out with Telchar into this
2. Did Eol make the galvorn swords in response to Thingol's request for one, or did he already have the two swords before he decided to move to Nan Elmoth? The timing of making the swords may affect when he and Telchar stop being friends, since she reacts to his creepy dark swords and what they reveal about Eol's heart and spirit.


Eol arrived in Beleriand with some buddies, fellow Avari or Nandor. We need not explain this, they’re just friends, and have similar tastes and preferences.

Why did Eol come to Beleriand? Maybe it doesn’t need to be explained. Maybe he made some enemies among the Dwarves or Elves further east. Or perhaps he left Kuivienen just to get away from Kuivienen society. Maybe he fled from whatever drove the Green Elves and Ents westward.

The flashback would start with Eol & friends living in eastern Doriath or in the vicinity, while the Sindar are spread out and scattered about the land, in the peaceful darkness before Morgoth came. Eol & friends are content with that arrangement, and I'd like to show that. When Morgoth and the Spiders attack, and the Sindar concentrate their population near Menegroth for safety, Eol needs somewhere safe to hide, so he stays in Doriath, but hates being ‘crowded’ with so many Sindar. (Rather than going to Menegroth, maybe?? he and his buddies even ride out the Spider battle in some other corner of Doriath? If he already has his galvorn swords, he could be seen using them to slice some webbing that got too close the where they were.)

When the Moon rises, Eol hates it! His reaction could be shown contrasting with some nearby Sindar who are delighted, climbing into the treetops to get a better look. Eol has had enough of this new, "improved" Doriath! His friends are sick of it too. One suggests going back to the mountains and trying to live among the Dwarves underground, but Eol and most of his friends disagree. Dwarven cities are even more crowded and noisy with people than Doriath. Nice for a visit (Dwarves are so much less tiresome than Sindar), but not to stay. (Or perhaps Eol knows the Dwarves won't let Elves settle among them permanently.)

Eol has heard rumors of the enchantments lingering in Nan Elmoth, and remarks to his buddies that he maybe he can turn that into a web of shade to block out the blasted new light. Melian is a shadow- and sleep-spirit. The trees of Nan Elmoth grew faster and taller than any others in Beleriand, and they alone would cast much shade. He goes to Menegroth. When Eol speaks to Thingol asking for Nan Elmoth, Thingol points out that Eol is not one of the Sindar. He has made it a point not to swear allegiance to Thingol or accept being his subject. Thingol has let Eol live in his kingdom as a guest for a while, because he is one of the Third Clan, “though you have never told me why you desired to come to Beleriand at all, disliking as you do the concourses of my folk”. But owning Nan Elmoth is a much greater thing to ask. What will Eol give in return?

The swords are Thingol’s request. Thingol asks about the mysterious black armor Eol always wears, that he calls galvorn. Rumors say it was made out of a fallen star, and that Eol is a mighty smith, taught by Dwarves. Eol answers yes, that’s all true. Thingol thinks: his folk have been armed by Dwarves, but galvorn is an additional military technology they don't have yet. Perhaps he has an incomplete foresight that a sword of galvorn will play some important and fateful role in his people’s struggle against Morgoth. Stars don’t fall often, and Eol says he won't for any reward reveal the secret of galvorn’s forging. So Thingol asks for a galvorn sword.

Melian is uneasy about letting Eol play with the remnants of her Nan Elmoth enchantments. But Thingol is willing to make a deal. He has Melian at his side, and doesn’t intend to leave the Girdle with Morgoth now in Middle-earth. He wouldn’t be able to visit Nan Elmoth again, anyway.

If Eol made his swords just at this point, his falling out with Telchar happened after she first saw the swords. If he had made them before he talked to Thingol, we could make them fall out before the Girdle is made.

This story is contrasted with how easily the Noldor have gotten land grants from Thingol. Eol isn’t aware of how grudging Thingol actually was, and doesn’t care. The Feanorians are settling right next to Nan Elmoth, practically surrounding it. Eol had wanted an explanation for why Morgoth suddenly attacked Beleriand, and clearly these invaders are the reason. They chased Morgoth here and started a war that had nothing to do with the people of Middle-earth. They ruined everything. The Sun and Moon are like symbols of their invasion and arrogance. Meanwhile, the Feanorians are setting up Himring, the castle at Rerir, and their other principalities. Amros is going off to Amon Ereb to be antisocial (inevitably, he will look comparable to Eol).


My problem wasn’t about the sequence of it all but that there were plot holes that isn’t visible in a summary but will make the story hard to follow and understand in a tv series unless they’re filled in. My aim was to start a discussion to fill in those holes, rather than to change it all and create new problems.
OK, I looked again at the sequence you posted. I'm maybe just dense... I don't actually know which parts you consider plot holes. (sorry) Did any of them get filled in during the rest of this thread? What do we still need to fill in?
 
I certainly could be wrong but I don’t think we can (or want to) put that much focus on Eöl.

The ‘plot holes’ are being fixed so I wouldn’t worry too much but I simply meant that the sketch doesn’t tell the whole story. What are the specific rumours circulating? Who tells Melian that the Noldor are the messengers of the Valar? Such issues.
 
I certainly could be wrong but I don’t think we can (or want to) put that much focus on Eöl.
Sure, if we don't need to tell all the details, then we can leave out whatever isn't necessary. I meant it more as an alternative to 1. leaving him 100% mysterious (I don't think anybody suggested that) or 2. moving his story to after the Sunrise.
 
Sure, if we don't need to tell all the details, then we can leave out whatever isn't necessary. I meant it more as an alternative to 1. leaving him 100% mysterious (I don't think anybody suggested that) or 2. moving his story to after the Sunrise.
Technically, we’re already after the Sunrise, since that was Season 3’s finale.
 
She's aware ;). She wants to tell Eöl's story in flashback, so we show that in the 'current' story, he's grumpy about his new Noldor neighbors, and in the past (prior to the sunrise) he established himself in Nan Elmoth. So, whatever we want to show with him making the swords and buying the place from Thingol would be told after the fact, rather than in real time.

I think that this will be a hard sell, as Eöl isn't a central character, but we can certainly pitch the idea to the Execs and see what they think of it. There is a certain amount of deliciousness to the idea of telling 'Of Beleriand and its Realms' from Eöl's point of view, after all!
 
I almost completely forgot, but we need to include the Sindar moving from the Falas into Nevrast and Mithrim -- before Gondolin is built. Some Sindar also need to end up in Nargothrond, I think.
Maybe Orodreth meets his Sindar lady with the lot that ends up in Nargothrond?
 
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