Which Sack? There’s two, one by the Dwarves and one by the Feanoreans.Oh, and we can probably kill Nellas in the sack. I know some people want her to survive, but she doesn't have to.
I'm just rattling off a list of who I can name who was killed in general in these... battles? Sacks? I can't think of the right terminology.I am talking about victims. If nobody is killed on the losing side, it'll look like they lost a game of paintball.
Dior's sons are not killed in battle. And neither is Thingol.
Dirhaval and Andvir are not planned to exist in this project, and if the goal is to avoid introducing any new characters, they won't be included. This is why we need to be willing to introduce new characters sometimes!
Seriously, I'm still waiting for somebody to mention what actual, material harm Galathil and Galadhon would cause this project, why it would be so awful to include them.
Why do the Hosts insist on not introducing new characters?I agree Dirhaval and Andvir should be in the story. And so should Galathil and Galadhon. Telling the Silmarillion without introducing any new characters is completely untenable. Even Nellas would have to be a new character!
Perhaps it's the sheer numbers of people killed in Doriath? Do they run on patrilineal primogeniture and since there are no males remaining in Thingol's family, the line (with the exception of Elwing) is considered extinguished from a political point of view, but not a total point of view due to prophecy? Was Luthien ever considered Thingol's heir?I am talking about victims. If nobody is killed on the losing side, it'll look like they lost a game of paintball. If only one victim is killed, it'll look like the most minor of minor skirmishes. Why's everyone so upset that the Feanorians killed just one guy? How is Doriath so destroyed they can never rebuild, when only 2-3 people ever died? That's a bad way to write war stories.
Dior's sons are not killed in battle. And neither is Thingol.
Dirhaval and Andvir are not planned to exist in this project, and if the goal is to avoid introducing any new characters, they won't be included. This is why we need to be willing to introduce new characters sometimes.
Seriously, Galathil and Galadhon would not cause any actual, material harm to this project.
Was Luthien ever considered Thingol's heir?
Nimloth was killed in the Second Kinslaying.I don't know why the Hosts oppose introducing new characters. I don't understand it.
Certainly lots of people are killed in Doriath in the books, and that's logically the reason the kingdom is destroyed. But in SilmFilm if they're nameless, faceless redshirts, they're never mentioned in the script, and nobody ever mourns them, then they don't matter. The writers don't care about them, so why should the reader/audience? Nobody mourns for a statistic. There won't even be a radio or newspaper announcing this statistic. Their deaths won't even be in the story.
Thingol is not killed in battle. He's assassinated before the battle starts. Then afterwards, there is a battle. Who actually dies in that battle? The current plan is nobody dies in battle. That's not war, it's just a paintball game.
And I realized this: Who is slain during the Second Kinslaying battle?
3 Sons of Feanor.
1 prince of Doriath.
Elwing keeps the Silmaril.
Doriath: 4
Feanorians: 1
Now it looks like the Feanorians lost the battle.
So, we need to introduce Nellas as a character (eventually, not in Season 4) and save her and at least 1 other character to be killed in the 2nd Kinslaying battle itself. And so, who will be killed in the first fall of Doriath battle? The answer is Celeborn's family, and they need to exist in Season 4 so they can interact with Celeborn about and at his wedding.
This is my suggestion for people slain in battle:
First Fall of Doriath: Galadhon and Galathil slain. Maybe Celeborn's mom too.
Second Kinslaying: Dior, Nellas, and Guilin slain. Maybe Galthil's wife too.
Third Kinslaying: Nimloth, Mablung, and Dirhaval slain. Maybe Enerdhil and/or Andvir, if possible
Even then Guilin, Dirhaval, Enerdhil, Andvir, and Galathil's wife are likely to be extremely minor characters at best, if the Hosts let us include them at all.
Lindis = another name of Nimloth in the genealogies. There's no text by JRRT that says she died at Doriath, as far as I know.The War of the Jewels said:The Lady Lindis escaped with Elwing, and came hardly to Ossir, with the Necklace and the Jewel. Thence hearing the rumour she fled to the Havens of Sirion.
More like "successor", similar to how Finrod cedes the kingship of Nargothrond to Orodreth in Beren and Luthien.This is one of those ways where Elves are different.
"One day, daughter, when I'm gone, all of this will be yours."
What a nonsensical thing for an Elf to say. Especially during the peaceful early days between "the War to Start All Wars" and the arrival of the Enemy in the north of Middle Earth. It wouldn't even occur to them. Like, they would need to invent a word for "heir" later on in the timeline once more people start to croak with some regularity.
The first Fall of Doriath is meant to show how screwed Doriath is without Melian. Before she left for Valinor, no invading armies were able to enter. Now, she's gone and Doriath is open to opposing armies. Plus, they have no leader.I don't know why the Hosts oppose introducing new characters. I don't understand it.
Certainly lots of people are killed in Doriath in the books, and that's logically the reason the kingdom is destroyed. But in SilmFilm if they're nameless, faceless redshirts, they're never mentioned in the script, and nobody ever mourns them, then they don't matter. The writers don't care about them, so why should the reader/audience? Nobody mourns for a statistic. There won't even be a radio or newspaper announcing this statistic. Their deaths won't even be in the story.
Thingol is not killed in battle. He's assassinated before the battle starts. Then afterwards, there is a battle. Who actually dies in that battle? The current plan is nobody dies in battle. That's not war, it's just a paintball game.
And I realized this: Who is slain during the Second Kinslaying battle?
3 Sons of Feanor.
1 prince of Doriath.
Elwing keeps the Silmaril.
Doriath: 4
Feanorians: 1
Now it looks like the Feanorians lost the battle.
So, we need to introduce Nellas as a character (eventually, not in Season 4) and save her and at least 1 other character to be killed in the 2nd Kinslaying battle itself. And so, who will be killed in the first fall of Doriath battle? The answer is Celeborn's family, and they need to exist in Season 4 so they can interact with Celeborn about and at his wedding.
This is my suggestion for people slain in battle:
First Fall of Doriath: Galadhon and Galathil slain. Maybe Celeborn's mom too.
Second Kinslaying: Dior, Nellas, and Guilin slain. Maybe Galathil's wife too.
Third Kinslaying: Nimloth, Mablung, and Dirhaval slain. Maybe Enerdhil and/or Andvir, if possible
Even then Guilin, Dirhaval, Enerdhil, Andvir, and Galathil's wife are likely to be extremely minor characters at best, if the Hosts let us include them at all.
I’m not saying that armies don’t kill and people don’t die, I’m just noting how significant the first Sack of Doriath is even without significant deaths. We could go along the Published Silmarillion route where Mablung is killed and the Silmaril taken. And I’m not trying to be dismissive or stomp on anyone.The loss of the Girdle doesn't matter if nobody dies afterwards! Nobody cares about armies that never kill anyone! Nobody needed Melian at all, because nobody ever dies after she leaves!
I recognize that you don't agree that battles should involve any death whatsoever. And everybody on this board agrees with you, apparently. But please stop dismissing my concerns out of hand as worthless and idiotic bullshit. It is extremely hurtful and cruel. Just because I'm the only person who cares about this, doesn't mean I deserve to be stomped on mercilessly.