Session 4.08 - Overarching Storylines, Final (I hope!)

MithLuin said:
My one concern with this timeline is that there is a lot of quick back and forth. Since we aren't actually showing what's happening in Hildorien, we have to rely on Morgoth's mysterious absence, an eclipse, and a few cryptic conversations with Sauron to get the point across. If Morgoth leaves and and returns within the same episode that probably doesn't build the mystery. But we might be able to make it work.
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I would say that in both cases when Morgoth leaves, he doesn't return until the next episode. As for Sauron, I wouldn't mention any brief returns to Hildorien while he's playing spymaster. He would be absent for 2-3 episodes, and then come back.

MithLuin said:
It's definitely important that Morgoth find Men prior to the Dagor Aglareb (Episode 8), and I would prefer that to be a very early season point. But what is the latest that Men can Fall? Ie, when *must* the Eclipse happen by?
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The only time Tolkien mentioned the fall of Men in relation to the events in Beleriand, he specified that whatever happened in Hildorien was done before the Dagor Aglareb. I very much think we should stick with that. The Mortals have implausibly little time in which to spread out across a large landmass and split into dozens of ethno-linguistic groups. Please let's not shorten it any further by stretching out their Fall past the Dagor Aglareb.
 
amysrevenge said:
Can we even have an Elf that is inherently weak, as in juuuust barely above debilitatingly weak at some times, without some external factor weakening them artificially?
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Not likely. Elves are supposed to be stronger, smarter, and more durable than humans (unless they’re Orcs).
 
amysrevenge said:
Can we even have an Elf that is inherently weak, as in juuuust barely above debilitatingly weak at some times, without some external factor weakening them artificially?
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Well, Tolkien never gave any external reason for Orodreth to be so ineffective. It's just that I find him annoyingly foolish and would rather have either a reason, or a less foolish-looking perspective on him.

But @Ange1e4e5 I think we're talking about something mental, not a physical weakness.
 
Faelivrin said:
I would say that in both cases when Morgoth leaves, he doesn't return for the next episode. As for Sauron, I wouldn't mention any brief returns to Hildorien while he's playing spymaster. He would be absent for 2-3 episodes, and then come back.

The only time Tolkien mentioned the fall of Men in relation to the events in Beleriand, he specified that whatever happened in Hildorien was done before the Dagor Aglareb. I very much think we should stick with that. The Mortals have implausibly little time in which to spread out across a large landmass and split into dozens of ethno-linguistic groups. Please let's not shorten it any further by stretching out their Fall past the Dagor Aglareb.
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Besides, Morgoth is going to be preoccupied by the Dragon project for a while. I’ve suggested that they have at least one failure.
 
Faelivrin said:
Well, Tolkien never gave any external reason for Orodreth to be so ineffective. It's just that I find him annoyingly foolish and would rather have either a reason, or a less foolish-looking perspective on him.

But @Ange1e4e5 I think we're talking about something mental, not a physical weakness.
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From the tone of our previous discussions, it seems like we have tentative plans to really lean into his weakness, even more than the PubSil does. Making things explicit that are only implied or hinted at, making his actions even more weak and more foolish.

And we already know that things like mental illness are unknown to Elves, at least not in a way comparable to in Men.
 
I'll say what I've said before, I oppose any course that makes Orodreth even more foolish and weak. I agreed to him being captured as an explanation for his canonical ineffectiveness, not as an excuse to make him even more useless. I very much hate turning Tolkien's characters into parodies of themselves. I didn't join this project to write a parody.
 
Faelivrin said:
I'll say what I've said before, I oppose any course that makes Orodreth even more foolish and weak. I agreed to him being captured as an explanation for his ineffectiveness, not as an excuse to make him even more useless. I very much dislike turning Tolkien's characters into parodies of themselves. I didn't join this project to write a parody.
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Well, he had to have been good at something, otherwise Finrod would not have put him in charge of Minas Tirith.
 
Exactly! And that has to happen after he escapes, if he's ever captured. And Finrod is an excellent judge of character, not a fool who gives the keys of Minas Tirith to just any untrustworthy idiot.

We should find ways to show that Orodreth is still a mostly effective leader even after his capture and escape. Not turn him into a spineless pile of quivering mush. Consider that no Elf captive in Tolkien's own writing is a spineless pile of mush. How could they even escape? Gwindor and Maeglin are still able to fight, express their opinions, and pursue their goals.
 
Faelivrin said:
Exactly! And that has to happen after he escapes, if he's ever captured.

We should find ways to show that he is still a mostly effective leader even after his capture and escape. Not turn him into a spineless pile of quivering mush.
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Maybe make him impulsive, a Leeroy-Jenkins type beforehand, but afterward he’s more reserved and relies on advice from others, which is not in itself negative, but becomes negative at a crucial point when Turin’s more martial mindset leads to the downfall of Nargothrond.
 
Faelivrin said:
Exactly! And that has to happen after he escapes, if he's ever captured. And Finrod is an excellent judge of character, not a fool who gives the keys of Minas Tirith to just any untrustworthy idiot.

We should find ways to show that Orodreth is still a mostly effective leader even after his capture and escape. Not turn him into a spineless pile of quivering mush. Consider that no Elf captive in Tolkien's own writing is a spineless pile of mush. How could they even escape? Gwindor and Maeglin are still able to fight, express their opinions, and pursue their goals.
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Well, Maeglin is a sleeper agent of his own free will and sent was back to Gondolin to await further instructions. Better if he remains unchanged to not arouse suspicion.
 
Faelivrin said:
I'm also fine with Orodreth never being captured. But I have always found his behavior ... not just weak, but foolish or even stupid. He goes farther than Turgon, IMO, by not even hiding from Morgoth. And Turgon's pride doesn't seem to fit as well with Orodreth. I would want some way to depict him that doesn't make him look stupid.

@cellardur , what's your concept of Orodreth as a character? I agree that he's weak and not very assertive. But I'm wondering how you conceptualize his decision-making around taking Turin's advice over Ulmo's.

Edit: I ask that in curiosity and hope that you'll have ideas that'd be helpful. Not intended to be hostile.



And in regard to Enemy storylines and Hildorien, I propose this:

Ep 2 or 3: Morgoth leaves to visit Hildorien. He immediately returns because scaring the crap out of Men doesn't help his goal of corrupting them.

Ep 3: He immediately sends "Annatar".

Eps 3-4: Sauron stays in Hildorien while Morgoth handles the spies. Learning that they've scheduled Mereth Aderthad, he calls Sauron back.

Eps 5-6: Sauron goes to Mereth Aderthad and oversees the spying for a while, briefly visiting Hildorien once or twice more as "Annatar".

Ep 6 or 7: Morgoth visits Hildorien with the golden armor and Silmarils, while causing a solar eclipse, or putting a really big dark cloud over the Sun. ('Eclipse' is seen from Beleriand.) Then he leaves them to build a temple, and sends Fankil to watch them.

Ep 8: Morgoth starts Dagor Aglareb at some point after his return.
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For me Orodreth is amiable and has a certain amount of wisdom, but he is easily awed by bigger personalities. He is far more of a follower than a leader. He is guilty of blind devotion to his heroes even when his instincts tell him he is wrong. Unlike many of the other Noldor, he grew up in a time of war, but was relatively low in the chain of command with his father and uncles above him.

I would think he also struggles to get over the death of his father and mother. He may want peace, but there is a side of him, that wants revenge for the death of so many close loved ones. Out of all the main cast of the Noldor, I don't think any of them have lost more immediate family members than Orodreth. His father, possibly mother and two uncles are dead.

Building the bridge was stupid, but I don't think Turin's reasoning was as foolish as it is made out to be. Turin's argument too had some merit, that if they stayed, hid and killed all of Morgoth's spies then eventually once Morgoth had conquered all else he would pinpoint them, because his spies kept going missing. The problem with Turin's logic was he did not trust in the Valar to save them.

Without faith in the Valar, Turin's argument was why stay and prolong your lives to eventually be killed by Morgoth anyway? Why not fight him and see what you can achieve. Maybe you will die, but at least your hurt your enemy. After years of hiding, I can see why Orodreth would want to come and fight and do some damage to Morgoth. Orodreth himself has lost many family members including his father and uncles to Morgoth. I can see why they prospect of striking back would appeal.

Plus Turin does have a magnetic personality, which cannot be ignored. Whilst he did not make friends, he earnt a special devotion, which led to even wise people like Beleg going against their instincts.
 
I won't be able to attend the Friday session at all. Marie I request that you please mention to the Hosts my thoughts:

1. Orodreth should not be any weaker than he is in the book. Not under a Spell of Bottomless Dread, spineless, or an agent of Morgoth.
2. My suggestion for the Elf who is under the "Spell" is Edhellos/Eldalote.
3. I don't think Ecthelion should be captured at all.
4. I'd really like to use the Hildorien timeline we developed on the forum here, which includes Morgoth at Hildorien but without making him the beautiful (sexy??) temptor (and lets us blame the fall of Mankind on Feanor XD). Sauron can be away for 2 or even 3 episodes, but IMO should finish at Hildorien early in the season, and return for the Mereth Aderthad.

I hope the session goes well!
 
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It seems I will be able to connect with hotel wi-fi. Of course, I've already rebooted my computer twice this morning, so we'll see how long this lasts....

I included people's concerns about Orodreth and Ecthelion in the document I sent to the Exes earlier this week. The Morgoth AND Sauron (and then Morgoth again) AND Fankil plan was shared with them as well.

See everyone in an hour!
 
So no Penlod, and Eldalote will be under the Spell of Bottomless Dread. Corey suggests that Glorfindel will be part of the catch and release program. Problem: none of the Elves of Gondolin can be an agent, unwitting or not, because of the secrecy surrounding Gondolin.

Corey suggests Annael as unwitting spy. Problem: why would he be trusted with Tuor?

We already have one tortured, don’t need two.

I thought most of the Elves freed from Tol en Gauroth went to Nargothrond. They can’t pass the Girdle unless by fate.
 
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