Session 4.11 - Season 4 Episode Outlines (Revisited)

Well, I would say that the ban should not be a slow reveal, and should happen during the second act of the season. I don't mind Fingolfin reacting to it the following episode, as it the news certainly will not travel instantaneously.

Other than adhering to the stated chronology of the book, is there any reason construction of Nargothrond and Gondolin cannot be commenced before the Ban?
Nargothrond should be mostly completed before the Ban, because Thingol would be far more reluctant to help Finrod with Nargothrond in the aftermath of the reveal.

Perhaps this is when the Dwarves are brought in?...
 
Nargothrond should be mostly completed before the Ban, because Thingol would be far more reluctant to help Finrod with Nargothrond in the aftermath of the reveal.

Perhaps this is when the Dwarves are brought in?...

Nargothrond will take some time to complete, so it need not be finished before the Ban, only begun.
 
I think a bunch of Noldor can manage to build a thing without Thingol's help haha. It's kind of their thing. I've all along sort of imagined the Sindar "helping" with Nargothrond the same way my kid "helped" me cut the grass when she was 3 and had a toy plastic push mower. Not to that extreme obviously, but in that direction.
 
I think a bunch of Noldor can manage to build a thing without Thingol's help haha. It's kind of their thing. I've all along sort of imagined the Sindar "helping" with Nargothrond the same way my kid "helped" me cut the grass when she was 3 and had a toy plastic push mower. Not to that extreme obviously, but in that direction.

I tend to agree. The dwarves are not going to abandon a clearly profitable relationship because Thingol is aggravated over some dead people he hadn't seen in thousands of years.
 
So we have two sides of the Glaurung debate: We show the process and/or recycle a character, or we show Glaurung at the very end of the Season and make it seem disjointed. Which one's it going to be?
 
If Glaurung is an entirely new plot point starting in E9, Episodes 1-8 will be one arc which will end, with E9 starting a new arc which will end in E13.
It's really that terrible to introduce any new plot twist or complication at all after episode 1? Is that also true about the captures, the spying, the suspicions of the Sindar, building Nargothrond and Gondolin, and the Sindar-Noldor marriages all in episode 1? I just find it hard to believe -- I thought we were introducing those various sub-plots over the course of the season, with Nargothrond and Gondolin not being built until after Dagor Aglareb. Babylon 5 introduced new plot complications, and entirely new antagonists, after episode 1 of a season, and I thought it worked very well.

It's not like Glaurung is from another planet. He isn't even really a new separate plot, just part of Morgoth's overall plans to destroy the Elves. Morgoth trying to kill them is nothing new, and monsters in general are nothing new. We introduced Trolls in Episode 12 or 13 of Season 3, they did something very important, and it seemed to work well. I don't think Episdode 13 felt like a separate season, or disjointed.

Glaurung, as a character, doesn't need to be somebody new. The Umaia-that-becomes Glaurung can be a character at the start. Maybe he starts jockying for power while Morgoth is out at Hildorien and Sauron is in charge.

Also, you are implying that just because the orcs fail in the Dagor Aglareb, Morgoth must come up with an entirely new stratagem at that point.
Yes, that is what I'm saying. It's exactly what Tolkien wrote. Morgoth created Dragons in response to Dagor Aglareb and the later attack on Hithlum (which we're combining with the Dagor Aglareb).

J.R.R. Tolkien said:
But thereafter there was peace for many years, and no open assault from Angband, for Morgoth perceived now that Orcs unaided were no match for the Noldor; and he sought in his heart for new counsel.
Again after a hundred years Glaurung, the first of the Uruloki, the fire-drakes of the North, issued from Angband's gates by night.
J.R.R. Tolkien said:
155
... But thereafter there was peace for many years, and no open assault; for Morgoth perceived now that Orcs unaided were no match for the Noldor, save in such numbers as he could not yet muster. Therefore he sought in his heart for new counsel, and he bethought him of dragons.

260
Here Glaurung, the first of the Uruloki, the fire-drakes of the North, issued from Angband's gates by night.


Right now, I think we're making Morgoth too passive. He does no more than rubber-stamp the capture-and-release, spying, and Dagor Aglareb, if he's even aware these things are happening. Now it looks like the plan is that Glaurung is a pre-existing (already incarnated?) Dragon who lived in Utumno, whom Morgoth makes no attempt to improve, who he'll ignore for centuries because he's insignificant and ... useless?

I very much prefer to make Morgoth active and decisive. His response to the Dagor Aglareb should not be to say, "Well all my plans have failed, I will not invent or attempt any new thing anymore." Remember that he doesn't send Glaurung out to attack. So, after Episode 8, Morgoth would neither do nor invent anything at all until next Season.

And I strongly think that Glaurung should be something actively bred and "made" by Morgoth, and something impressive enough to pay attention to rather than ignoring.


As for Glaurung's size, I think he should start out larger than a human being, not the size of a dog. He should be menacing and dangerous from the start, horse- or crocodile-sized, not something that Draugluin and Tevildo can bully and push around. I don't think he should be at all something that can be mistaken for a pet or a mere fancy. I imagine Morgoth breeding and mutating hideous lizardy monsters, and then imprisoning a demon in an adult lizard-monster.
 
Last edited:
It's really that terrible to introduce any new plot twist or complication at all after episode 1? Is that also true about the captures, the spying, the suspicions of the Sindar, building Nargothrond and Gondolin, and the Sindar-Noldor marriages all in episode 1? I just find it hard to believe -- I thought we were introducing those various sub-plots over the course of the season, with Nargothrond and Gondolin not being built until after Dagor Aglareb. Babylon 5 introduced new plot complications, and entirely new antagonists, after episode 1 of a season, and I thought it worked very well.


This is a mischaracterization of what I'm talking about. The things you are talking about are plot elements. Glaurung is the main threat of the season finale. You are saying that I am saying A is true and inferring that therefore B must also be true without actually demonstrating that A and B are analogous. Also, I never said that all of the major storylines should be introduced in episode 1, but the first 3-4 episodes. On this point I have not been the least bit vague, so I'm really curious as to where the exaggeration is coming from.

And I strongly think that Glaurung should be something actively bred and "made" by Morgoth, and something impressive enough to pay attention to rather than ignoring.

We know that Morgoth is involved in the Fall of Men in Hildorien. It is honestly not a stretch that the dragon project might get back burnered in favor of a more time sensitive endeavor.


As for Glaurung's size, I think he should start out larger than a human being, not the size of a dog. He should be menacing and dangerous from the start, horse- or crocodile-sized, not something that Draugluin and Tevildo can bully and push around. I don't think he should be at all something that can be mistaken for a pet or a mere fancy. I imagine Morgoth breeding and mutating hideous lizardy monsters, and then imprisoning a demon in an adult lizard-monster.

I was in agreement until the last sentence. We know that Glaurung is still in his youth at the end of this season. The body into which Glaurung is introduced need not be fully grown only to suddenly not be fully grown immediately thereafter.
 
Interesting how we disagree on Glaurung and Morgoth now... anyway i made my suggestions and will not start fights for them.All i wanted was to throw in my perspective..
 
On Morgoth and Glaurung? Well... what else should i say... i just think to make his creatures Morgoth does not have to run around and do crazy sorcery or breeding experiments... of course he DOES that, but i always thought he does it by his powers and energy, not necessarily by actions with his physical body... i somehow never imagined how he actively DOES create monstrous beasts and sends evil,spirits into,these... i though his pure will and command were sufficient.
 
We decided early on in this project to show the 'bad guys', while the published Silmarillion only tells parts of what concerns Morgoth and his people. This decision has consequences. The feeling one has about the Silmarillion story and the feelings one has about our version will not always be same. It is part of our adaption. I tend to argue for keeping of mystery, and keeping as close to the written text as possible. But the decsison to show what's going on in Angband has been made, and we can't just leave that storyline. I know that nobody is arguing that we should go that far, but that would be the extreme position in the stance some people seem to be taking. We can leave things out, but we have to show what the bad guys are doing. It's not about explaining or not explaining. Personally, I don't care if I understand everything in films I see. I love mystery. I could have been happy with a Silmfilm storyline with a pure elvish perspective, with the bad guys being totally mysterious and just showing up as horrible enemies from time to time. But that's not what we've agreed to do. We have decided to show their activities from the inside. Now that is a challenge; how do we make that interesting, exciting, thrilling? The challenge is extra hard in times where the Silmarillion has surprises. It will happen again next season, with the Dagor Bragollach. How do we make that surprise work? This season, the enemy is failing and doing all sorts of stuff that is successful to various degrees. They also do things in the East that we can't really show. So what is the overall picture of the bad guy activityu this season? They are failing and struggling. That's not very impressive. Their efforts will (except for the kidnappings) look unimpressive, at least to some degree.

In what way can we show Glaurung as a part of that overall picture without trivializing him or showing his powers too soon? What is the line that keeps the right balance? Not too small? Big and strong, but no fire-breathing? That's not a big discussion. We're really down to details in this part of the discussion, I think. It has to be possible to find a consensus. Another issue is the timing. My suggestion is that he is introduced in some form in episode 3 or 4, just before Morgoth learns of the awakening of the Men. He can then have started a Dragon project (struck a deal with an unwilling but power-hungry Glaurung-spririt, or something like that, we can work out the details) with just a general goal, but then he leaves because the new Children of Ilúvatar is obviously a priority. Putting the dragon project on hold will then not trivialize Glaurung at all, it is clearly less important. We can then show Glaurung showing impatience once or twice, that will be enough, probably once will be enough, and then he could manipulate Gothmog to start a battle. That would be a really big thing. If Morgoth then goes back to the dragon project, we can show perhaps some sign of a rapid development, before he escapes. That's all that is needed to give Glaurung an arch, in my opinion.
 
We decided early on in this project to show the 'bad guys', while the published Silmarillion only tells parts of what concerns Morgoth and his people. This decision has consequences. The feeling one has about the Silmarillion story and the feelings one has about our version will not always be same. It is part of our adaption. I tend to argue for keeping of mystery, and keeping as close to the written text as possible. But the decsison to show what's going on in Angband has been made, and we can't just leave that storyline. I know that nobody is arguing that we should go that far, but that would be the extreme position in the stance some people seem to be taking. We can leave things out, but we have to show what the bad guys are doing. It's not about explaining or not explaining. Personally, I don't care if I understand everything in films I see. I love mystery. I could have been happy with a Silmfilm storyline with a pure elvish perspective, with the bad guys being totally mysterious and just showing up as horrible enemies from time to time. But that's not what we've agreed to do. We have decided to show their activities from the inside. Now that is a challenge; how do we make that interesting, exciting, thrilling? The challenge is extra hard in times where the Silmarillion has surprises. It will happen again next season, with the Dagor Bragollach. How do we make that surprise work? This season, the enemy is failing and doing all sorts of stuff that is successful to various degrees. They also do things in the East that we can't really show. So what is the overall picture of the bad guy activityu this season? They are failing and struggling. That's not very impressive. Their efforts will (except for the kidnappings) look unimpressive, at least to some degree.

In what way can we show Glaurung as a part of that overall picture without trivializing him or showing his powers too soon? What is the line that keeps the right balance? Not too small? Big and strong, but no fire-breathing? That's not a big discussion. We're really down to details in this part of the discussion, I think. It has to be possible to find a consensus. Another issue is the timing. My suggestion is that he is introduced in some form in episode 3 or 4, just before Morgoth learns of the awakening of the Men. He can then have started a Dragon project (struck a deal with an unwilling but power-hungry Glaurung-spririt, or something like that, we can work out the details) with just a general goal, but then he leaves because the new Children of Ilúvatar is obviously a priority. Putting the dragon project on hold will then not trivialize Glaurung at all, it is clearly less important. We can then show Glaurung showing impatience once or twice, that will be enough, probably once will be enough, and then he could manipulate Gothmog to start a battle. That would be a really big thing. If Morgoth then goes back to the dragon project, we can show perhaps some sign of a rapid development, before he escapes. That's all that is needed to give Glaurung an arch, in my opinion.

I think this is likely a more coherent version of what I'm thinking than I could express myself.
 
This is a mischaracterization of what I'm talking about. The things you are talking about are plot elements. Glaurung is the main threat of the season finale.
To me Glaurung looks like part of the threat of Angband and Morgoth, not something wholly unrelated to Angband. He's not from another planet, or even another continent. Those other plot elements will also be the main plots of their respective episodes. I don't see the difference between them. And we are not introducing Nargothrond or Gondolin before Dagor Aglareb, so we're already introducing new plot elements after the season midpoint and certainly after Episode 4.

Also, I never said that all of the major storylines should be introduced in episode 1, but the first 3-4 episodes. On this point I have not been the least bit vague, so I'm really curious as to where the exaggeration is coming from.
I am sorry that I've misunderstood you. To me it has been vague nonetheless. I know it must be very annoying that I often don't understand what's obvious to everyone else.

I recognize that he can't be new in Episode 13, but I don't agree that he needs to be already a Dragon in Episode 4.

There are examples both in SilmFilm and in other arc-heavy shows of introducing major plot elements in the second half of a season, such as the Trolls in last season, and the Shadows in Babylon 5. The Trolls didn't feel like a problem to me and I don't remember you saying that they would cause a problem or that they had to be introduced in Episode 3 or 4. I don't see how Glaurung is any different from the Trolls in this regard. He's a new kind of monster from Angband, not an entirely separate antagonist unrelated to Morgoth. He's a big deal, but he's an integrated part of the larger picture of Angband, which we'll empasize by showing him being created and growing bigger in Angband.

I tried to re-watch the Babylon 5 episodes in question last night, to remind myself how they went, but had too many technical difficulties. Babylon 5 introduced a completely new antagonist, which was utterly unrelated to all previous antagonists and which became the primary antagonist for two seasons. These Shadows were first mentioned in Episode 13/22 of Season 1, and first appeared as concrete antagonists in Episode 9/22 of Season 2. While Babylon 5 does have flaws and tempo problems in some of its other plotlines, the Shadows storyline was timed and written beautifully.

So I cannot agree with you that the Dragon project can't be introduced after Episode 4.


And I've asked a couple of times now why Glaurung can't be introduced in the early season as a Maia instead of as a pre-existing Dragon. My suggestion has not been addressed at all. I do not see why showing that Glaurung used to be a Maia would be such an awful thing.


I remain very concerned that by using your timeline, in which Dragons are already created in Episode 4, that Morgoth will do nothing whatsoever after the Dagor Aglareb, for 5 episodes (200 years), and possibly end the season by giving up for 195 more years. We need to show Morgoth reacting to the Dagor Aglareb by making actual new plans, and your planned timeline shows the opposite. I strongly think that depicting Morgoth as utterly passive/doing nothing for 5 episodes is a bad idea, and a much worse problem than introducing a plot element in Episode 9.

Morgoth won't be on screen for several episodes before Dagor Aglareb, and then would do nothing for 5 episodes after. He'd be absent or inactive for almost the whole season.

So what is the overall picture of the bad guy activityu this season? They are failing and struggling. That's not very impressive. Their efforts will (except for the kidnappings) look unimpressive, at least to some degree.
I think it will be far more menacing, and far less unimpressive, if Morgoth reacts to the Dagor Aglareb with confident, decisive action and new plans. He will be very unimpressive indeed if he reacts by throwing up his hands, completely giving up, and sulking passively for hundreds of years.

Imagine this: the Enemy is defeated utterly in battle, his forces crushed, his fortress besieged. Some of his minions are feeling hopeless... but Morgoth simply says this was merely a temporary setback and the Elves will all be ended in due time. I can always breed more Orcs. And then without concern, without any sign that he takes this as a decisive defeat, he immediately begins building a new weapon. That would be menacing, even terrifying.

Far more menacing than Morgoth sitting on his hands for 5 episodes, passively watching other people make decisions for him.


I was in agreement until the last sentence. We know that Glaurung is still in his youth at the end of this season. The body into which Glaurung is introduced need not be fully grown only to suddenly not be fully grown immediately thereafter.
You have a good point. You're right the body can't be fully grown. At the same time I don't like the idea of Glaurung ever being like a puppy, a baby, on screen. I think he should start already well on his way to adulthood, already a substantial portion of his final adult size.
 
Last edited:
I’m nowhere near saying Morgoth should throw his hands in the air, give up and sulk. I’m not sure where you get this from.
 
To me Glaurung looks like part of the threat of Angband and Morgoth, not something wholly unrelated to Angband. He's not from another planet, or even another continent. Those other plot elements will also be the main plots of their respective episodes. I don't see the difference between them. And we are not introducing Nargothrond or Gondolin before Dagor Aglareb, so we're already introducing new plot elements after the season midpoint and certainly after Episode 4.

While we are not introducing the actual cities of Nargothrond and Gondolin before the Dagor Aglareb, the visions that precipitate them certainly should, so no, we are not introducing new plotlines after that.

Bear in mind that everything in the first column must be established in the first 3-4 episodes, the second column is a bit more fluid, and the third column must happen no earlier than the last 3 episodes. If we want to maintain continuity of flow, anyway.

This is where I stated that the story arcs of the season should begin in the first 3-4 episodes. I'm not sure how that is vague, as you state here:

I am sorry that I've misunderstood you. To me it has been vague nonetheless. I know it must be very annoying that I often don't understand what's obvious to everyone else.

I recognize that he can't be new in Episode 13, but I don't agree that he needs to be already a Dragon in Episode

There is currently no one arguing that there should be a fully-formed dragon in E4. This is not a point of contention, so I'm not sure why it is even being brought up as such.

And I've asked a couple of times now why Glaurung can't be introduced in the early season as a Maia instead of as a pre-existing Dragon. My suggestion has not been addressed at all. I do not see why showing that Glaurung used to be a Maia would be such an awful thing.

It has not been addressed, because we, as Haakon suggested above, consider that a detail which can be ironed out once we have come to something of a consensus on the structure of the season, which is the point of this discussion. As it stands, I don't think it would be an awful thing, but we can discuss that once the rest has been ironed out.


There are examples both in SilmFilm and in other arc-heavy shows of introducing major plot elements in the second half of a season, such as the Trolls in last season, and the Shadows in Babylon 5. The Trolls didn't feel like a problem to me and I don't remember you saying that they would cause a problem or that they had to be introduced in Episode 3 or 4. I don't see how Glaurung is any different from the Trolls in this regard. He's a new kind of monster from Angband, not an entirely separate antagonist unrelated to Morgoth. He's a big deal, but he's an integrated part of the larger picture of Angband, which we'll empasize by showing him being created and growing bigger in Angband.

I tried to re-watch the Babylon 5 episodes in question last night, to remind myself how they went, but had too many technical difficulties. Babylon 5 introduced a completely new antagonist, which was utterly unrelated to all previous antagonists and which became the primary antagonist for two seasons. These Shadows were first mentioned in Episode 13/22 of Season 1, and first appeared as concrete antagonists in Episode 9/22 of Season 2. While Babylon 5 does have flaws and tempo problems in some of its other plotlines, the Shadows storyline was timed and written beautifully.

So I cannot agree with you that the Dragon project can't be introduced after Episode 4.

So, on the matter of trolls, there is a tremendous difference. The trolls are merely a tool of our antagonists. Glaurung is an antagonist all his own. The threat Glaurung presents is the actual story of the finale, what the entire story should be driving towards.

The example you provided from B5 is an interesting one. The Shadows are not a major plot element until S2, but they are introduced in S1, about the halfway mark. This would be the equivalent of introducing Glaurung around the middle of S3 and having him actually become a threat at the Dagor Aglareb. Babylon 5 indeed does an excellent job of causing the audience to anticipate coming threats in a way that generates interest and maintains a continuous plot arc through seasons.

I remain very concerned that by using your timeline, in which Dragons are already created in Episode 4, that Morgoth will do nothing whatsoever after the Dagor Aglareb, for 5 episodes (200 years), and possibly end the season by giving up for 195 more years. We need to show Morgoth reacting to the Dagor Aglareb by making actual new plans, and your planned timeline shows the opposite. I strongly think that depicting Morgoth as utterly passive/doing nothing for 5 episodes is a bad idea, and a much worse problem than introducing a plot element in Episode 9.

What you are describing is utterly unlike anything which has been suggested. No one is saying that dragons will be completed by E4, and that Morgoth will do nothing after the Dagor Aglareb. I have already addressed this point, so I'm not sure why we are here again.

I'm suggesting that the dragon project has been begun by E4, but not completed, that it gets put on hold for Morgoth to deal with the arrival of Men, and that the Dagor Aglareb proves conclusively that the dragon project is a priority, and thus it is resumed in earnest. Meanwhile Operation Catch and Release continues throughout.
 
What I said earlier was that he (Edit: Morgoth) could feel that breeding another generation of easily killed orcs was frustrating. But that’s a debatable, minor detail.
 
Last edited:
The difference between the trolls and Glaurung was that the trolls were used by Sauron in one of his gambits and took no autonomous actions. We didn't need to know their motivations, because they were not calling the shots. Sauron was not a new villain (to the audience ).



I am not convinced that Glaurung needs his own arc throughout the entire season, for the same reason that I am not convinced Ulmo's dreams need to happen in the first four episodes. Certainly, we have to start telling those stories. We have to have Finrod and Turgon start to build realms of their own, to be focused on the security of their people. But when does Ulmo's intervention happen? Can't it be the middle part of that story, warning them that their efforts aren't enough yet?

In the same way, we need to lean hard on the problem of sunlight for Angband in the early part of the season. And yes, we can introduce the character who will become Glaurung. We can have that Maia express Dragon-like views. And we can have a dumb creature crawl out of the ruins of Utumno. But we just need to set the stage in the beginning. We don't need to launch Operation Dragon until much later. Not out of nowhere, but as a follow up to the introductory material.
 
Back
Top