Session 4.12 - Episodes 1 and 2

MithLuin said:
He forces the orcs to endure sunlight, and then throws them at the Noldor in the Dagor Aglareb.
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Oh, right. I thought we were showing that earlier in the season.

He's not going to be as nice at playing drill sergeant as Sean Bean, right?
 
MithLuin said:
These events have to happen in this order, obviously, but we don't have to tell them in that order. So, if we do decide to start with Fingon in the mountains of Thangorodrim at the opening of the episode (step 3 here), we would then have to show the other events (1 and 2) in flashback or some other version of out-of-order storytelling. I am fine with that, though I doubt the Hosts will like it. Still, I will suggest that as an option.
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My greatest objection to starting with Fingon already in the Thangos is that if we do that the dark clouds will already block the light of the Sun. We ended last season with the Sun rising and causing the whole power balance to shift, so the clouds can't just be there.
 
I think that part of the issue that we are facing is that the hosts seem to be operating as if each episode can only be "about" one thing. This happened in the early episodes of S3 as well. It's why Prof. Olsen keeps saying "we don't have time".

We had the same issue at the beginning of last season.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
I think that part of the issue that we are facing is that the hosts seem to be operating as if each episode can only be "about" one thing. This happened in the early episodes of S3 as well. It's why Prof. Olsen keeps saying "we don't have time".

We had the same issue at the beginning of last season.
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I think we can surely fit multiple storylines into a single episode. Some might be taking place simultaneously in a single scene. Is there any way of showing the Hosts that we can fit multiple storylines into a single episode or so? And of course the Mereth Aderthad will have multiple plot lines converging, with Galadriel admitting the Kinslaying to Celeborn, attempts to unite the Noldor and Sindar in alliance, which is what the Mereth Aderthad is all about at its core, and the Villains storyline with Sauron attending (with Thuringwethil?) incognito. If they don't think we can fit multiple storylines into a single episode, will they scrap it entirely?
 
MithLuin said:
Okay, focusing on just Fingon in Episode 1, what I see right now is:

1. Fingon is living in the Camp of Fingolfin on the northern end of Lake Mithrim. He learns that Fëanor is dead and Maedhros is captive in Angband. Fingon is frustrated by the division of the Noldor.

2. Morgoth makes a cloud of smoke to hide Angband from the Sun. Seeing his opportunity, Fingon makes up his mind to rescue Maedhros. He leaves without the other Noldor knowing his intentions.

3. Fingon in Thangorodrim. The task seems impossible. He cannot find any way in. He searches the mountains for a secret entrance.

4. Fingon gives up. He sits down and starts to sing and play his harp. Maedhros is close by above him and answers. Fingon climbs up and sees Maedhros' predicament.

5. Maedhros begs Fingon to shoot him. Fingon readies his bow and prays to Manwë. The arrival of Thorondor.

6. Fingon tries to free Maedhros. Instead, he resorts to cutting off his hand. Thorondor carries them away. Someone from Angband is a witness to the escape.

7. Thorondor brings Fingon and Maedhros back to Mithrim. They land in {which camp?}


These events have to happen in this order, obviously, but we don't have to tell them in that order. So, if we do decide to start with Fingon in the mountains of Thangorodrim at the opening of the episode (step 3 here), we would then have to show the other events (1 and 2) in flashback or some other version of out-of-order storytelling. I am fine with that, though I doubt the Hosts will like it. Still, I will suggest that as an option.

Events 4-7 happen back-to-back continuous, so we can combine them into one scene or split them up with other scenes between, as desired. They are each a discrete event, though.
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2. Is Fingon already gone to rescue Maedhros when the season opens?
6. Do we want to name the Orc who witnesses the escape? Or should he be a nameless extra?
 
Angband Storyline, Episodes 1 and 2.

1. The sunlight causes great dismay to Morgoth's armies.
2. Morgoth makes a cloud of smoke to hide Angband from the Sun.
3. Someone from Angband (who?) is a witness to Maedhros' escape. Morgoth is very alarmed by Thorondor's involvement.
4. Morgoth receives news(?) about the awakening of the Men. He leaves for the East.
5. Gothmog takes control over the Angband administration. He orders Boldog to raise a new army. Sauron’s task is ‘outer operations’.
6. Proto-Glaurung (a Maia in Morgoth's service) introduced?

I think it might be a good idea not to send Morgoth away until Episode 2. He's going to be gone for most of the Season, so I'm not really in any hurry to get him out of Angband. Also, if we are going to have Maia-who-becomes-Glaurung in this story, we would need to introduce that character in these first two episodes.

Anything else the villains need to be doing in the opening two episodes? I like that we have the opportunity to introduce 'Morgoth vs Sunlight' right away here in the first episode.
 
We had 2-3 plots going through most of seasons 2 and 3. The problem is that it is easy to forget, for example, that S03E08 isn't just the ship-burning episode. It is also the episode where the Noldor who were not on the ships decide to continue their journey eastwards, and Beleg heads home. We even have subplots about the twins and the bad guys.

Another thing that we learned last season is that the big events are often better as backdrops for more character- driven stories.
 
MithLuin said:
Angband Storyline, Episodes 1 and 2.

1. The sunlight causes great dismay to Morgoth's armies.
2. Morgoth makes a cloud of smoke to hide Angband from the Sun.
3. Someone from Angband (who?) is a witness to Maedhros' escape. Morgoth is very alarmed by Thorondor's involvement.
4. Morgoth receives news(?) about the awakening of the Men. He leaves for the East.
5. Gothmog takes control over the Angband administration. He orders Boldog to raise a new army. Sauron’s task is ‘outer operations’.
6. Proto-Glaurung (a Maia in Morgoth's service) introduced?

I think it might be a good idea not to send Morgoth away until Episode 2. He's going to be gone for most of the Season, so I'm not really in any hurry to get him out of Angband. Also, if we are going to have Maia-who-becomes-Glaurung in this story, we would need to introduce that character in these first two episodes.

Anything else the villains need to be doing in the opening two episodes? I like that we have the opportunity to introduce 'Morgoth vs Sunlight' right away here in the first episode.
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4. Perhaps Thuringwethil is sent by Sauron to scout eastward (maybe he knows where Men are to awaken?) and informs Morgoth?
5. What should Sauron do as 'outer operations'?
6. I don't know. Should we have a Maia who becomes Glaurung?
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
2. Is Fingon already gone to rescue Maedhros when the season opens?
6. Do we want to name the Orc who witnesses the escape? Or should he be a nameless extra?
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He can be a nameless extra , unless we decide we need another named Angband support- character (Gorgol, Lug, Othrod, Balcmeg, Orcobal, Ulbandi?) In that case this would be an opportunity to introduce him.
 
I support showing the Maia who will become Glaurung.

I don't support starting in media res and using flashbacks to tell what happened before. It's harder to tell the story that way, it's more awkward and confusing for both writers and audience/readers, it gets rid of the entire concept of the language barrier by skipping past it entirely, and it takes away a good opportunity to introduce telepathy (which we will need to introduce). I don't see any benefit to starting in media res.
 
MithLuin said:
I really don't see the camps coexisting without any communication at all. I know things are tense, but the Host of Fingolfin had things they wanted to say to Fëanor, and I don't think it makes a lot of sense for them to establish a permanent camp within sight of the other Host but never talk.
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That wasn't my suggestion. My suggestion is:

1. Fingolfin's host return to Mithrim
2. Maglor's host gets out of their way, going to the other side of the lake. Fingolfin's people need to set up a place to rest before they can deliver a message. They're tired.
3. Cirdan's company comes down to meet Fingolfin's. Attempts to communicate begin.
4. Fingolfin sends a strongly worded message to Feanor. Maglor recieves it. Some sort of communication happens, but very little.
5. Continued communication attempts with the Sindar.


I'd never thought about why Fingon would choose to return to one camp vs. another. There is a good argument that he'd choose the Feanorian camp as a further gesture of goodwill. But he won't be thinking about strategically how to make it look natural when Maedhros abdicates, which he doesn't anticipate. Brainstorm of other considerations that might matter?:

1. Returning to his father's camp gives Fingolfin a chance to think about and write a formal message to the Feanorians.
2. Would he worry the Feanorians might do something to him?
3. Returning first to the Feanorian camp helps reduce suspicion that cutting off Maedhros' hand was unnecessary. Then again, Maedhros can tell them that when he's conscious/able to talk.
 
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I think we could justify whichever one we want by having Fingon tell Maedhros "I will take you to X, who is the best healer we have." and then have X is in whichever camp we want.
 
Not sure what you mean by "jump scare", but I'd much rather not show him literally appearing out of nowhere standing behind Fingon, as though he cast an Apparate spell.


Brief notes:

Next session is April 19, and will finish up the discussion of Episode 2. But we'll need to make the next session primarily about creative work and/or casting, because there’s just no way we can do the script outline sessions for more than 2 episodes in 2 weeks. At 6 hours per episode, plus forum discussion, five episodes would take over 15 hours of script-writing per week.


The Execs request but don’t require that we leave part of the rescue of Maedhros off screen. After Fingon prays to Manwë (and we hear a sound of an Eagle crying?) the rest happens off screen until Thorondor descends on the Noldorin camps (and they fear Manwë is judging them?). Thorondor can speak after he lands, however.

I think it's impossible to have both families of Noldor present in the immediate vicinity of Thorondor's landing, unless they're living together in one reunited camp, which they can't be. But we can have Thorondor descend within one of the camps, and choose which will be most dramatic (Amysrevenge has a good suggestion for justifying whichever camp we want). The other camp will need to be told by Fingon or a messenger.

Corey is OK with Morgoth returning from Hildorien from time to time to put some Elves under the Spell of Bottomless Dread. And then we can show him leaving again. Morgoth is present in Angband in Episodes 10-13, but we’re told not to depict him in every one of those episodes. We are asked to depict him only occasionally even when he is present. We can make it unknown whether Morgoth is commanding the Dagor Aglareb or whether he’ll come to the battlefield. “leave our viewers [and Elves] waiting for the other shoe to drop.”

We can show Morgoth reacting to the Dagor Aglareb with confidence: he knows that he will defeat the Elves eventually anyway.

In Season 5 the Edain can hint at some problems among the Men (and with other Men) without giving away Ulfang's Satanism. (The Edain are also fallen, but that won’t be entirely obvious, only slightly suspected by the Noldor.)
 
Faelivrin said:
Not sure what you mean by "jump scare", but I'd much rather not show him literally appearing out of nowhere standing behind Fingon, as though he cast an Apparate spell.


Brief notes:

Next session is April 19, and will finish up the discussion of Episode 2. But we'll need to make the next session primarily about creative work and/or casting, because there’s just no way we can do the script outline sessions for more than 2 episodes in 2 weeks. At 6 hours per episode, plus forum discussion, five episodes would take over 15 hours of script-writing per week.


The Execs request but don’t require that we leave part of the rescue of Maedhros off screen. After Fingon prays to Manwë (and we hear a sound of an Eagle crying?) the rest happens off screen until Thorondor descends on the Noldorin camps (and they fear Manwë is judging them?). Thorondor can speak after he lands, however.

Corey is OK with Morgoth returning from Hildorien from time to time to put some Elves under the Spell of Bottomless Dread. And then we can show him leaving again. Morgoth is present in Angband in Episodes 10-13, but we’re told not to depict him in every one of those episodes. We are asked to depict him only occasionally even when he is present. We can make it unknown whether Morgoth is commanding the Dagor Aglareb or whether he’ll come to the battlefield. “leave our viewers [and Elves] waiting for the other shoe to drop.”

We can show Morgoth reacting to the Dagor Aglareb with confidence: he knows that he will defeat the Elves eventually anyway.

In Season 5 the Edain can hint at some problems among the Men (and with other Men) without giving away Ulfang's Satanism. (The Edain are also fallen, but that won’t be entirely obvious, only slightly suspected by the Noldor.)
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Jump Scare in the sense that he shows up out of nowhere and frightens the viewer.
 
Question: do we want the Silmarillion to be a fantasy epic or a psychological drama by showing less and leaving more to the imagination?
 
Definitely mainly a fantasy epic, but an epic isn't mutually exclusive with some degree of character and psychological drama. There's a continuum rather than an either-or question.

I'm persuaded that leaving part of the rescue off-screen would work, as long as we do show Maedhros begging for a mercy killing, Fingon bending his bow, and his prayer on screen.



Uh, also I'll add that even just one script outline every week is likely not 100% attainable. Sometimes one or more script-writers will be unavailable. Script sessions can happen with one or more writers absent, but not on weekends when only one script-writer is available.
 
Next session will be focused on Creative Content, not Episodes 3-5 (see new thread). I do not foresee any trouble holding the two script discussions necessary before we move on to Episodes 3-5 on May 3rd. We will probably want to hold off until after April 19th for the second script discussion so as to incorporate any 'clean up' they do during that session, but we can do the first one as soon as we'd like. See Nick's new thread in the Script forum to comment on interest/availability to join in!

The plan, from the beginning of the Season, was always to do these creative session in between the multiple episode sessions, specifically for the purpose of not getting too far ahead of the Script Discussions.
 
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