Session 4-21: Episodes 10 (& 11)

I think my ideal scene would be for Thingol to spend most of his rage against Celeborn, then be calmed down by Luthien (and Celeborn be consoled by her) and then resolve into what is really, when you look at the alternatives, a remarkably restrained public response.
 
First of all, please do not kill off Angrod in the Dagor Aglareb! He should stay alive until the Dagor Bragollach. I can't understand where this proposal came from, it doesn't make any sense to me.

There are certainly things we can do to remind the audience of the Nauglamir. For example, we are going to see Nargothrond during the Beren and Luthien season, as well as during Turin's season.
I don't know what -- it would not be in character for Finrod to pull it out of a drawer to fondle it or show it off to visitors. He brought treasure out of Valinor only to remind himself of home, not because he likes fondling jewels.

I don't find the Silmarillion story awkward at all. It seems to make perfect sense to me. Even the compression of the Wanderings of Hurin in the Silmarillion seems to make perfect sense to me, and I imagine plenty of other Silmarillion readers. But I don't think that following the Silmarillion when it comes to the Nauglamir is in any way the same as avoiding telling the Wanderings. Therefore there is no need to alter the origin of the Nauglamir as written in the Silmarillion.
I can't agree. What Christopher Tolkien wrote in the 1977 Silmarillion is not a compression of the Wanderings of Hurin. It is a wholesale replacement, which leaves out important events. The 1977 Silm makes no mention at all of the entire civil war that destroyed Brethil. It doesn't mention Hurin's companions at all. And it has an old man who needs a staff to walk, suddenly become strong enough to dig a grave, bury Morwen, and kill Mim without any assistance at all. That is awkward and unexplained.

I don't want to leave out the companions of Hurin, or the war in Brethil.
 
But, this is magic we're dealing with. There needn't be any reason the anti-balrog magic need be imparted at the time an item is made. It can be applied after.
I've always thought of magic as being imbued into items by the will and thoughts of the maker. I think of the description of the "magic" cloaks of Lorien - the Elves put thoughts of all the things and places they love into it while making it.

Except that Glaurung is described as attacking the eastern front by Maglor’s Gap and destroying all the land between the arms of Gelion, while Aegnor will be in Dorthonion.
Exactly. Glaurung can't rampage in East Beleriand and slay Azaghal if he's over in Dorthonion.
No. He looks derelict in his duty to protect his lands in Dorthonion if he’s halfway across Beleriand; Dorthonion is one of the first places hit in the Dagor Bragollach.
This too. He's a King of Dorthonion, and he should die (trying to) defend the place where Andreth lives. If he leaves Dorthonion he's abandoning her even more.

I would like Aegnor to at least fight a Balrog, if not kill one. But please, please, don't kill Angrod in the Dagor Aglareb. Please convey to the Hosts that I'm really very unhappy by this decision, I think it's awful. I cannot understand why Angrod's character arc is being completely rewritten and messed up like this. I can't understand why Tolkien's ideas for his characters' arcs are considered so worthless that they have to be torn down and rewritten from scratch. SilmFilm should show some respect for Tolkien's ideas about his own characters and plots. Why on Earth is Angrod dying in the Dagor Bragollach such an awful idea that it can't be used?
 
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First of all, please do not kill off Angrod in the Dagor Aglareb! He should stay alive until the Dagor Bragollach. I can't understand where this proposal came from, it doesn't make any sense to me.

I don't know what -- it would not be in character for Finrod to pull it out of a drawer to fondle it or show it off to visitors. He brought treasure out of Valinor only to remind himself of home, not because he likes fondling jewels.

I can't agree. What Christopher Tolkien wrote in the 1977 Silmarillion is not a compression of the Wanderings of Hurin. It is a wholesale replacement, which leaves out important events. The 1977 Silm makes no mention at all of the entire civil war that destroyed Brethil. It doesn't mention Hurin's companions at all. And it has an old man who needs a staff to walk, suddenly become strong enough to dig a grave, bury Morwen, and kill Mim without any assistance at all. That is awkward and unexplained.

I don't want to leave out the companions of Hurin, or the war in Brethil.
The proposal for Angrod’s death came about because the Balrogs are going to be present at the Dagor Aglareb (no reason to leave them out) and someone has to die to follow our rule of the Balrogs being hero-killers. Since Angrod’s role is all but ended at this point until his demise in the Dagor Bragollach, he’s the sacrificial lion. We tried to change the Hosts’ minds, but to no avail.
 
I've always thought of magic as being imbued into items by the will and thoughts of the maker. I think of the description of the "magic" cloaks of Lorien - the Elves put thoughts of all the things and places they love into it while making it.

Exactly. Glaurung can't rampage in East Beleriand and slay Azaghal if he's over in Dorthonion.
This too. He's a King of Dorthonion, and he should die (trying to) defend the place where Andreth lives. If he leaves Dorthonion he's abandoning her even more.

I would like Aegnor to at least fight a Balrog, if not kill one. But please, please, don't kill Angrod in the Dagor Aglareb. Please convey to the Hosts that I'm really very unhappy by this decision, I think it's awful. I cannot understand why Angrod's character arc is being completely rewritten and messed up like this. I can't understand why Tolkien's ideas for his characters' arcs are considered so worthless that they have to be torn down and rewritten from scratch. SilmFilm should show some respect for Tolkien's ideas about his own characters and plots.
Azaghal isn’t slain until the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.
 
And whatever happened to Tolkien's intent that Dagor Aglareb would be a crushing defeat of Morgoth, with no significant losses for the Elves? Why is that idea so awful and unuseable? Is Dagor Aglareb being rewritten into a crushing defeat of the Noldor? How could they set up the Siege of Angband (which is very critical to the plot!) if they don't defeat Morgoth at the Dagor Aglareb? How is the audience going to believe in the false peace of the Siege if it starts off with Elven princes getting killed?
 
So killing Edhellos and capturing Rog in the Dagor Aglareb was vetoed? Why? Were those two characters cut out of the story?

Morgoth was only testing the Elves at Dagor Aglareb, that's the only reason they could win. He has no reason to bring out Balrogs while testing his Orcs. Is Morgoth's entire long-term strategy being thrown in the toilet and replaced with mindless Hulk Smash!! Hollywood carnage?

Obviously, if Tolkien meant for the Balrogs to be in the Dagor Aglareb, he would have mentioned them and showed them unequivocally defeating the Elves. The very fact that the Elves won the battle at all shows that the lack of mention of Balrogs was deliberate. With Balrogs and Dragons, Dagor Aglareb would have been exactly like Dagor Bragollach and the Siege would never even start.

{Edited by Moderator: Post not consistent with Rules of Conduct}
 
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So killing Edhellos and Rog in the Dagor Aglareb was vetoed? Why? Were those two characters cut out of the story?

I'm really sick and tired of the most fundamental parts of plots and character arcs being rewritten with this attitude that Tolkien is a worthless hack and his ideas are all garbage.
Rog isn’t killed in the Dagor Aglareb, he’s captured. And Edhellos is killed at this point.
 
So killing Edhellos and capturing Rog in the Dagor Aglareb was vetoed? Why? Were those two characters cut out of the story?

Morgoth was only testing the Elves at Dagor Aglareb, that's the whole reason they won. He has no reason to bring out Balrogs while testing his Orcs. Is Morgoth's entire long-term strategy being thrown in the toilet and replaced with mindless Hulk Smash!! Hollywood carnage? Is this adaptation being written for four-year olds?

Obviously, if Tolkien meant for the Balrogs to be in the Dagor Aglareb, he would have mentioned them and showed them unequivocally defeating the Elves. The very fact that the Elves won the battle at all shows that the lack of mention of Balrogs was deliberate.

I'm really sick and tired of the most fundamental parts of plots and character arcs being rewritten with this attitude that Tolkien is a worthless hack and his ideas are all idiotic garbage to be purged. If the Hosts have no respect for Tolkien as an author and despise his ideas as garbage, then they shouldn't be making adaptations of his work.
Corey said that Morgoth would look stupid for not deploying the Balrogs if he intended to crush the Elves at Dagor Aglareb and the Noldor would also look stupid for believing that they won a big victory with the Balrogs not present.
 
Morgoth does not intend to crush the Elves this season. The book says right there in plain English that Morgoth was testing his enemies, not trying to eliminate them yet.

Now Morgoth, believing the report of his spies that the lords of the Noldor were wandering abroad with little thought of war, made trial of the strength and watchfulness of his enemies.
It is also plainly stated that at this time Morgoth perceived that "Orcs unaided" could not defeat the Elves.
for Morgoth perceived now that the Orcs unaided were no match for the Noldor
"Orcs unaided" does not by any means signify "Seven Balrogs and some Orcs". It clearly means "Orcs, without the aid of anything bigger." There is no way for "Orcs unaided" to signify "Seven Balrogs" through any application of the English language. That is not how English works.
 
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Furthermore, we have already clearly established that Morgoth considers a possible return of the Valar (who just created the Sun and Moon a few decades ago) to be a far bigger concern than the measely Elves and Dwarves, and that he has commanded his very finite number of Balrogs to be on watch as the first defence of Angband from the Valar. Scattered Elves wandering with little thought of war are not much of a concern compared to Manwe and Tulkas suddenly knocking the mountains down.

Sure, after 400 years of no Valarin intervention, Morgoth gets more confident. Right now, the Sun and Moon are only 60 years old, which is not long in Valar-time.


Morgoth's long-term strategy only looks "stupid" to viewers who think "Hulk SMASH!" is the height of strategic sophistication.

Yes, Fingolfin thinks Morgoth is screwed. Fingolfin is arrogant and pompous, and (in the book) his nephews point out that his overconfidence is unwarranted. It's not like all the Noldor thought the war was over. Fingolfin thought so. Finrod and Aegnor explicitly did not, and there are suggestions in the Maeglin material that the Feanorians did not. Thingol and Melian knew better as well. The Noldor will only look stupid if the reaction Tolkien gave them is deliberately rewritten to make them look stupid.


Again, Tolkien's plot ideas were very carefully written and they make plenty of sense until somebody starts chopping out bits of the orchestra. Chopping out necessary parts and then complaining that they're missing is hypocritical. None of these supposed problems are caused by Tolkien's own ideas, they are caused by throwing his ideas in the toilet.
 
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Well, to make Morgoth not look stupid, he should be depicted as having a long-term strategy, not as somone who mindlessly thrashes around without making plans. He should be a strategist with intelligence, not a chicken with its head cut off.

And we can prevent him from looking stupid by showing that he's intelligent enough to worry about possible Valarin interference, because the Sun and Moon were not trivial interventions and only an idiot would decide they mean nothing.

This is how Tolkien avoided Morgoth looking stupid. By giving him sentience, perception, and strategy.*


Also, I point out that if Morgoth does not keep his Dragons and Balrogs as trump cards, and just throws them at every single problem no matter how small, he risks the people who invented Silmarils and umpteen other marvels will invent... anti-Balrog magic. Which they are going to invent. Or anti-Dragon magic. That'll ruin his trump cards when he really needs them. A wise strategist does not throw their biggest doomsday weapon at every single soldier that annoys them.


*Edit: Yes, before somebody tells me I'm accusing Corey of thinking Morgoth is not sentient: The capacity to plan for the future, to conceive of there being a future, and to consider the possible outcomes and consequences of one's actions, is considered by biologists and anthropologists and primatologists as one of the important traits separating sapient humans from non-sapient animals.

Edit2: Object permanence is another sign of sapience: such as remembering the Valar exist and are a threat, even when they aren't in the continent.
 
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We'll soon have to show how morgoth merges himself with arda, trying to make the world his ring, making clear that all his wars are more or less just a distraction...
 
We made a lot of similar arguments during the several hours of discussion surrounding these events. Ultimately, they were not found compelling by them. As it stands, per their decision, the current script outline for E9 has balrogs at the battle, Angrod and Edhellos being killed, and Rhogrin getting captured.
 
We made a lot of similar arguments during the several hours of discussion surrounding these events. Ultimately, they were not found compelling by them. As it stands, per their decision, the current script outline for E9 has balrogs at the battle, Angrod and Edhellos being killed, and Rhogrin getting captured.
Wasn’t in the books that Morgoth was testing them?
 
The attack down the coast 100 years post Dagor Aglareb is the one that the book explicitly states to be balrog-free (ie, the army consists only of orcs). We have preserved that by having *only* orcs attack Vinyamar. The balrogs are at the battle at Tol Sirion. While Morgoth is certainly making a trial of his strength in the Dagor Aglareb, it is not explicitly stated that he did not employ the balrogs during this attack. They aren't mentioned, one way or the other.

The Hosts have chosen to include the balrogs in the Dagor Aglareb, and to use the Dagor Aglareb to bring Angrod's storyarc to a close so that we can focus more on Aegnor in Season 5.

The Dagor Aglareb (as described by the Hosts and as discussed during the Script Discussions) is not a defeat for the Noldor. They win. They do have some loss of life, but they are able to defend their realms from Morgoth's armies and fight them off. Morgoth's armies retreat to Angband in the end.


{Edited by Moderator}
 
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