Session 4-22: Final Creative Content - Dragons!

Haakon said:
Do you think? Well the execs want a fast dragon - not a huge, slow, heavy hulk of a beast. So that's one parameter. Then we have the fact that Glaurung is wingless. He's not flying, but he's still fast. And then there's Tolkien's drawing, with its peculiar head. I think a lot points towards something close to the Chinese dragon (second from left). It's not really like a snake, although, I admit it is a bit snakey. It is golden, which is nice.

(I agree that the one to the far right is more or less a huge snake - and probably not what we want).
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Of course Glaurung has to be fast. So he’s gotta have powerful legs.

I’ve imagined dragons to be more lizardlike myself, but these seem good.

Offhand, what color should he be? (Not red like Smaug or black like Ancalagon)
 
I think our Glaurung should look fairly serpentine but be able to walk without his belly dragging the ground (so Azaghal does not get crushed when Glaurung crawls over him). I think this could be achieved by most of the length of his body being in his tail. This seems to be the case in Tolkien's picture of Glorund, and part of his tail is still inside the cave.

Maybe not quite these proportions, but something like this:
0641.jpeg


If Glaurung does have a really long tail, he may be able to use it as a whip, as the apatosaurus may have:
Dinosaurs_Whip_Tails_Supersonic_Speed_3.jpg


I think a whiplike tail would help Glaurung appear fast and dangerous, especially if his tail is much larger than the fiery whips used by the Balrogs.
 
I get the whip tail idea, I agree with that, but I think we should avoid the dinosaur assassination as much as we can. I think that a Chinese dragon with legs is a good starting point. It would make Glaurung serpentine, fast, and regal. I also think that a golden Chinese dragon would be something Melkor would love, as it would be a creature reminding him of the splendour of Utumno.
 
I realize that the desire for the more slender/snake-like conception of a dragon is to give him maneuverability and speed. The idea that the creature could turn on you at any moment and you aren't safe. So, I do like that.

But I don't necessarily dislike the idea of a crocodile-like dragon...and crocodiles are far from slow/unwieldy creatures.

Crocodiles vs wildebeasts:

Besides, when people think of what about a crocodile looks like an evil intelligence, they mostly mean the eyes/head shape, moreso than body/leg/tail design. I hope we incorporate croc eyes into our dragons, regardless.

Here's Jenny Dolfen's most recent depiction of the young Glaurung:
https://goldseven.wordpress.com/2019/03/31/then-fingon-rode-against-him/

And here's the snakes vs baby iguanas video others mentioned earlier:
(But with French narration, for some reason)

I think we can pull off a speedy reptile of various designs. We agree we don't want his movement to be ponderous/slow, so he's not going to walk like a croc on land. Certainly, Tolkien's own dragon illustrations favor the snake-like body (but with legs).

Tolkien_-_Dragon.jpg
 
amysrevenge said:
Have you seen that Attenborough doc with the snakes chasing marine iguana hatchlings from shore to sea? Fast. Terrifying. Dragon-like.
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This clip, right?

It's interesting to watch how they move. The iguana is pretty fast, but runs on two legs in a way that looks a bit...well, silly, I think. I wouldn't want Glaurung to move like that. The snakes...they are fast in an effortless way. It's scary - especially when they come down from the rocks, it reminds me of the Black Riders pursuing Frodo at the Ford.
 


It looks as if four-legged snakes DID exist at one time... but as far as i understand scientists believe they did NOT run on their legs but only used them to grab... so basically they think they moved like snakes do. I think that would fit to what we know about Glaurung...from what i've tead in the books i always got the impression that he does not walk, but rather glide or wriggle... so i was a bit surprised when i saw that tolkien painted him as a legged-dragon!

Personally i think..yeah, alligators, comodo dragons, iguanas all CAN be quite fast... but,they look kind of cute when they're running.At least if they don't chase you!

Serpents to me look way more frightening...
 
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I've been thinking a lot about what the titles of the episodes in this season should be, and I'd like to put forward this list of title suggestions for Episodes 1-10:
  1. Separate camps, scary clouds, saving cousins.
  2. Attempts at appeasement and also ambition.
  3. Various viewpoints are voiced.
  4. Elves explore and establish realms.
  5. Aggressions manifest at Mereth Aderthad.
  6. Noldorin secrets are not secret anymore.
  7. Grieving grey-haired governor quickly quashes Quenya.
  8. Return of Morgoth, rescue of mother
  9. Orodreth is orphaned. Oh no!
  10. Divisions after Dagor Aglareb; dreams also.
Definitely no hidden messages here. ;)
 
For Episode 10 or 11: Has Turgon already left the sword, armor and shield in Nevrast, or does he do that in this stretch of time?
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
For Episode 10 or 11: Has Turgon already left the sword, armor and shield in Nevrast, or does he do that in this stretch of time?
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That's an episode 12-13 question, but if you want to discuss the design of the armor, that would be appropriate in this thread.
 
MithLuin said:
That's an episode 12-13 question, but if you want to discuss the design of the armor, that would be appropriate in this thread.
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I was asking whether or not it had been done.

The shield has a wing design on it, which is where Tuor gets his House in Gondolin. How should the armor look, should it have a wing/feather type design, scale mail maybe? And the sword, should it be curved or straight? I recall there was speculation that the curved sword in the films used by Elrond and Arwen, named Hadhafang, was the sword from Nevrast.
Should the sword be an arming sword or bastard sword?
 
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Any thoughts on the gear left in Nevrast? The shield has a wing sigil, how should the armor look? Scale mail? Plate?

Straight or curved sword? Arming or bastard sword?

How should the helmet look? Bucket? Nasal? Barbute?
 
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It's noldo armor isn't it? So i suppose fishmail, reverse teardrop shield, tall helmet with a large bell and a crest, a long straight bladed sword with a wide guard. Because... that's what is typical noldo!
 
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Haerangil said:
It's noldo armor isn't it? So i suppose fishmail, reverse teardrop shield, tall,helmet with a high bell and a crest, a long straight bladed sword with a wide guard. Because... that's what is typical noldo!
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I could live with that. Who gets the idea for the swan wing sigil?
 
Are you sure you mean sigil here? I mean... we know Turgons and Tuors sigils and neither of both has swan wings..

But the house of the wing in gondolin later has the emblem of the swan wing and they have winged helmets... we know the shield turgon left at nevrast bore a swan wing device... i don't think that there was before a housecof the swan but that Tuor newly founded that house at gondolin and that the members of his house either came from former members of other houses or formerly unalligned citizens.

I'm sure that his house emblems and helmets were inspired by the helm and shield turgon left at nevrast

Where turgon got the ideas for this from? I don't know... i guess i like the idea that they were either directly demanded by ulmo as a quasi-religious gesture or otherwise were part of turgons dreams/vision...
or maybe the swan symbol originally was a symbol from the iconography of the Falathrim who had moved to Vinyamar?

Question would be: is this the point where the entire swan-wing tradition which we will find the next thousands of years ,all through from the edain to the numenoreans to the royal guard of gondor and the swan-knights of dol amroth ,started or has it been there before as a sinda-tradition?
 
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