Session 4-27, 4-28: Post-production Script Review, Parts 3 and 4

[MithLuin]

Obviously, I haven't read the new version yet.

Does that sound like a plausible reason for Sauron to be near enough to Edhellos to kill her?

It sounds like you have focused on the logistics. Having Sauron's forces in the rear of Gothmog's army (the second wave) seems a safer place for them, but certainly they could be elsewhere. While that might not be implausible, I am struggling a bit more with motivation. Sauron...isn't happy to see his mole successfully embedded in the enemy army? Isn't that where he wanted her? She seems...too happy? When he knows that can be put to an end with a flick of Morgoth's puppetry? He wants to kill her to...what? Make her mad? Make Angrod mad? What for?

Sauron is cruel, certainly, but he's not simply a sadistic torturer. That's Tevildo, the cat who plays with his food just to enjoy batting it around a bit more. Sauron is long term strategy and season-long 'projects' with end goals well beyond the individual action. He doesn't kill a tool if its still useful to him (witness the survival of Gollum after being tortured in Barad-dûr).

I know why he was spying at the Mereth Aderthad (he can tell the Noldor have a secret, and wants to find out what it is). I know why he is capturing stray elves. I understand what his goal is going to be with releasing some of these captive elves as his moles (sowing distrust, eyes on the inside).

I really don't know why he wants to kill Edhellos right now, or why he cares one way or the other about Angrod. I know he found it useful to impersonate Angrod, but beyond that...it's not like he cares about the guy. And as for Edhellos - she gave him the information he needed. She was useful. She could be useful again. Does he view her on a more personal level than this? If so....why?

It's easy to create villains who are passionately opposed to protagonists and obsessed with them in every way. And some of our villains might be that way (Glaurung, for example). But it's important to remember that sometimes villains are dispassionate in their evil. Nothing personal, truly, you were just there, and they took the opportunity. I do not think that Sauron is wholly dispassionate. He's not a strictly-by-the-book kind of guy, so not rote or mechanical in his villainy. But he does "weigh all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice." He's calculating, and very wise, and doesn't lose sight of the big picture. By the Third Age, he's all about power and dominion. He doesn't have much of those at the moment, but that's still what motivates him. So, I guess my question is...how does killing Edhellos increase Sauron's power or further his goals? What does he gain from it?

 

[Ange1e4e5]

It's easy to create villains who are passionately opposed to protagonists and obsessed with them in every way. And some of our villains might be that way (Glaurung, for example). But it's important to remember that sometimes villains are dispassionate in their evil. Nothing personal, truly, you were just there, and they took the opportunity. I do not think that Sauron is wholly dispassionate. He's not a strictly-by-the-book kind of guy, so not rote or mechanical in his villainy. But he does "weigh all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice." He's calculating, and very wise, and doesn't lose sight of the big picture. By the Third Age, he's all about power and dominion. He doesn't have much of those at the moment, but that's still what motivates him. So, I guess my question is...how does killing Edhellos increase Sauron's power or further his goals? What does he gain from it?

That's what I have in mind for Celegorm down the road, a villain that has a personal grudge against a hero.

In the case of Sauron, Edhellos may have accomplished her purpose, but since Sauron doesn't have the power to fully envelope Edhellos' will like Morgoth does, Sauron could decide to try again, but more subtly, with Annael.

The dispassionate way Sauron goes about things is what made me think of Michael Myers and inspired the plotline I had of him killing along the Siege of Angband from time to time on the side to ellicit fear in the Elves. And Michael is far, far from stupid, going about things in a calm, focused manner. In the original Halloween film, Michael fools Loomis and the entire Haddonfield police into thinking that he'll be at his old house, commits a burglary that takes hours to detect, stalks Laurie Strode and her friends for hours before playing his mind games: he lets Bob know that he's screwed by holding up the knife, pretends to be Bob to get Lynda's guard down, and places the corpses of Laurie's friends to freak her out before moving in for the kill. He also cut the phone lines so Laurie couldn't call for help. Oh, and he can drive a car despite never being behind the wheel in his life.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

That's what I have in mind for Celegorm down the road, a villain that has a personal grudge against a hero.

In the case of Sauron, Edhellos may have accomplished her purpose, but since Sauron doesn't have the power to fully envelope Edhellos' will like Morgoth does, Sauron could decide to try again, but more subtly, with Annael.

The dispassionate way Sauron goes about things is what made me think of Michael Myers and inspired the plotline I had of him killing along the Siege of Angband from time to time on the side to ellicit fear in the Elves. And Michael is far, far from stupid, going about things in a calm, focused manner. In the original Halloween film, Michael fools Loomis and the entire Haddonfield police into thinking that he'll be at his old house, commits a burglary that takes hours to detect, stalks Laurie Strode and her friends for hours before playing his mind games: he lets Bob know that he's screwed by holding up the knife, pretends to be Bob to get Lynda's guard down, and places the corpses of Laurie's friends to freak her out before moving in for the kill. He also cut the phone lines so Laurie couldn't call for help. Oh, and he can drive a car despite never being behind the wheel in his life.

The problem with Serial Killer Sauron (action figure trademark Nicholas Palazzo 2019), is one of motive. There are a number of reasons why serial killers kill. Typically they center around deriving pleasure in one way or another from the kill itself. They are clever and strategic in how they go about it, sure. And it might be the reaction of the public or law enforcement that gives them their jollies. But either way, it isn't something that achieves some greater goal. It just doesn't seem like something Sauron would engage in.

Similarly, I don't see how Edhellos' purpose could be fully realized at this point. Victory is far from achieved. Why would you not want a fully integrated pawn within the ranks of the enemy. It's not exactly a single-use proposition.


Additionally, the more I think about Sauron being on the fringes of the battle, the less sense it makes to me. If Sauron is present with his highly mobile intelligence and fast-strike forces, how on Middle-earth do the Feanoreans get the jump on them? How is Sauron not made immediately aware that they are being encircled? And if he does know, why does he essentially "throw" the battle? Just to get one over on Gothmog? How does this not reflect poorly on him to Morgoth?

The whole thing just raises so many questions.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Truly, in looking over the script with an eye on detail, I'm fairly confused on a number of points. That Aegnor and Angrod are sitting within bowshot of an army that has cover, trading arrows with them seems nearly suicidal. They would have to retreat or move forward under those circumstances. I'm also a bit confused as to how the right flank is able to make contact with the enemy after the Elves retreat from bowshot. That would suggest a massive gap in the Orcs lines between their left flank and the center.

And to say that the additions of Ecthelion's screen time, and the other extra scenes that are taking place don't take time away from the other plotlines isn't really accurate. Battles are a bit tough, since for the screenwriter, they only take a line or two, seeming to condense the screenplay. They still take time. The amount of scenes present in the script adds up to what should be almost an hour and a half of screen time. And that isn't even fully developing what Sauron is out there doing in the first place.

I know that you've put a ton of time into this episode specifically, @Rhiannon , and written ... what? three versions of this script at this point. And you've captured a lot of what we talked about in our discussion for E09 beautifully. I just think that there is a lot of this one that would wind up trimmed away before it could be filmed in a way that both did the plotlines justice and met the required time limits. If we wanted to do a two-hour episode, that's something we could discuss, but we'd still have to readjust the battle scenes themselves keep all the pieces on the board in places where it makes sense for them to be.

 

[Rhiannon]

Obviously, I haven't read the new version yet.



It sounds like you have focused on the logistics. Having Sauron's forces in the rear of Gothmog's army (the second wave) seems a safer place for them, but certainly they could be elsewhere. While that might not be implausible, I am struggling a bit more with motivation. Sauron...isn't happy to see his mole successfully embedded in the enemy army? Isn't that where he wanted her? She seems...too happy? When he knows that can be put to an end with a flick of Morgoth's puppetry? He wants to kill her to...what? Make her mad? Make Angrod mad? What for?

Sauron is cruel, certainly, but he's not simply a sadistic torturer. That's Tevildo, the cat who plays with his food just to enjoy batting it around a bit more. Sauron is long term strategy and season-long 'projects' with end goals well beyond the individual action. He doesn't kill a tool if its still useful to him (witness the survival of Gollum after being tortured in Barad-dûr).

I know why he was spying at the Mereth Aderthad (he can tell the Noldor have a secret, and wants to find out what it is). I know why he is capturing stray elves. I understand what his goal is going to be with releasing some of these captive elves as his moles (sowing distrust, eyes on the inside).

I really don't know why he wants to kill Edhellos right now, or why he cares one way or the other about Angrod. I know he found it useful to impersonate Angrod, but beyond that...it's not like he cares about the guy. And as for Edhellos - she gave him the information he needed. She was useful. She could be useful again. Does he view her on a more personal level than this? If so....why?

It's easy to create villains who are passionately opposed to protagonists and obsessed with them in every way. And some of our villains might be that way (Glaurung, for example). But it's important to remember that sometimes villains are dispassionate in their evil. Nothing personal, truly, you were just there, and they took the opportunity. I do not think that Sauron is wholly dispassionate. He's not a strictly-by-the-book kind of guy, so not rote or mechanical in his villainy. But he does "weigh all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice." He's calculating, and very wise, and doesn't lose sight of the big picture. By the Third Age, he's all about power and dominion. He doesn't have much of those at the moment, but that's still what motivates him. So, I guess my question is...how does killing Edhellos increase Sauron's power or further his goals? What does he gain from it?

I couldn't resist

 

[Rhiannon]

Truly, in looking over the script with an eye on detail, I'm fairly confused on a number of points. That Aegnor and Angrod are sitting within bowshot of an army that has cover, trading arrows with them seems nearly suicidal. They would have to retreat or move forward under those circumstances. I'm also a bit confused as to how the right flank is able to make contact with the enemy after the Elves retreat from bowshot. That would suggest a massive gap in the Orcs lines between their left flank and the center.

And to say that the additions of Ecthelion's screen time, and the other extra scenes that are taking place don't take time away from the other plotlines isn't really accurate. Battles are a bit tough, since for the screenwriter, they only take a line or two, seeming to condense the screenplay. They still take time. The amount of scenes present in the script adds up to what should be almost an hour and a half of screen time. And that isn't even fully developing what Sauron is out there doing in the first place.

I know that you've put a ton of time into this episode specifically, @Rhiannon , and written ... what? three versions of this script at this point. And you've captured a lot of what we talked about in our discussion for E09 beautifully. I just think that there is a lot of this one that would wind up trimmed away before it could be filmed in a way that both did the plotlines justice and met the required time limits. If we wanted to do a two-hour episode, that's something we could discuss, but we'd still have to readjust the battle scenes themselves keep all the pieces on the board in places where it makes sense for them to be.

OK. I'll work on cleaning it up and reducing the number of scenes.

 

[Rhiannon]

 

[MithLuin]

I think there is a rather marked difference between horror film serial killers and real life serial killers.

Typically, in real life, serial killers look for opportunities - victims who are vulnerable and won't be missed right away. So, prostitutes (Green River Killer, Robert and David Pickton), homeless people, runaways (Native American teens, young gay men, etc), or even patients in nursing homes whose deaths might not be viewed as suspicious (Cullen, Högel). By choosing people who are transient or not well integrated into society, they ensure that the victim won't be reported missing to the police. And if there's a delay in finding the bodies, it's possible there will be too little evidence to connect the murderer to the victims. Etc. So, yes, there's a methodical side to it. But sometimes they don't worry about that side at all, and just prey on someone they consider defenseless, such as the Beltway snipers, or those who break-and-enter when they know someone is home alone, etc.

But, typically, what you're dealing with there is murder-as-fetish. One person getting a very specific thrill out of bringing another person's life to an end. They find something that works, and repeat that pattern. You don't see a lot of creativity or variation in methods. Because...there's a specific fantasy to recreate (at least in some cases).

I don't really see any indication that Sauron takes particular pleasure in delivering death blows to elves. He delights in fooling them, certainly, and in controlling them. But actually personally physically killing them? Doesn't really seem to be his thing. He only fights Gil-galad because he has to. The one murder that seems personal to him is Celebrimbor.

I couldn't resist
View attachment 2446

It is too early in Sauron's arc for him to be challenging Morgoth for power. He's not going to kill Edhellos because she's Morgoth's slave rather than his own.

He is going to make his own puppets, but that does not require Edhellos' death. Also, if he's at all concerned about Angrod spilling the beans, he should deal with the witnesses. While he's there. By killing them.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

The problem with Serial Killer Sauron (action figure trademark Nicholas Palazzo 2019), is one of motive. There are a number of reasons why serial killers kill. Typically they center around deriving pleasure in one way or another from the kill itself. They are clever and strategic in how they go about it, sure. And it might be the reaction of the public or law enforcement that gives them their jollies. But either way, it isn't something that achieves some greater goal. It just doesn't seem like something Sauron would engage in.

Similarly, I don't see how Edhellos' purpose could be fully realized at this point. Victory is far from achieved. Why would you not want a fully integrated pawn within the ranks of the enemy. It's not exactly a single-use proposition.


Additionally, the more I think about Sauron being on the fringes of the battle, the less sense it makes to me. If Sauron is present with his highly mobile intelligence and fast-strike forces, how on Middle-earth do the Feanoreans get the jump on them? How is Sauron not made immediately aware that they are being encircled? And if he does know, why does he essentially "throw" the battle? Just to get one over on Gothmog? How does this not reflect poorly on him to Morgoth?

The whole thing just raises so many questions.

He does get a

I think there is a rather marked difference between horror film serial killers and real life serial killers.

Typically, in real life, serial killers look for opportunities - victims who are vulnerable and won't be missed right away. So, prostitutes (Green River Killer, Robert and David Pickton), homeless people, runaways (Native American teens, young gay men, etc), or even patients in nursing homes whose deaths might not be viewed as suspicious (Cullen, Högel). By choosing people who are transient or not well integrated into society, they ensure that the victim won't be reported missing to the police. And if there's a delay in finding the bodies, it's possible there will be too little evidence to connect the murderer to the victims. Etc. So, yes, there's a methodical side to it. But sometimes they don't worry about that side at all, and just prey on someone they consider defenseless, such as the Beltway snipers, or those who break-and-enter when they know someone is home alone, etc.

But, typically, what you're dealing with there is murder-as-fetish. One person getting a very specific thrill out of bringing another person's life to an end. They find something that works, and repeat that pattern. You don't see a lot of creativity or variation in methods. Because...there's a specific fantasy to recreate (at least in some cases).

I don't really see any indication that Sauron takes particular pleasure in delivering death blows to elves. He delights in fooling them, certainly, and in controlling them. But actually personally physically killing them? Doesn't really seem to be his thing. He only fights Gil-galad because he has to. The one murder that seems personal to him is Celebrimbor.



It is too early in Sauron's arc for him to be challenging Morgoth for power. He's not going to kill Edhellos because she's Morgoth's slave rather than his own.

He is going to make his own puppets, but that does not require Edhellos' death. Also, if he's at all concerned about Angrod spilling the beans, he should deal with the witnesses. While he's there. By killing them.

I guess I wanted Sauron to be doing something other than his catch-and-release program, and not looking afraid to do his own killing.

 

[Rhiannon]

It is too early in Sauron's arc for him to be challenging Morgoth for power. He's not going to kill Edhellos because she's Morgoth's slave rather than his own.

He isn't challenging Morgoth for power, just seeking a little more control over the Spell of Bottomless Dread program.

He is going to make his own puppets, but that does not require Edhellos' death. Also, if he's at all concerned about Angrod spilling the beans, he should deal with the witnesses. While he's there. By killing them.

But it's so much more evil to Angrod live with the knowledge that his wife is a kinslayer, and I think that if Sauron has studied Angrod enough to impersonate him and fool Angrod's wife, he would know that this is something Angrod would never reveal.

 

[Rhiannon]

He does get a

I guess I wanted Sauron to be doing something other than his catch-and-release program, and not looking afraid to do his own killing.

If Sauron is going to go around killing people in awful ways, he might be acting more like a terrorist than a serial killer. His motive would be to make his enemies fear Morgoth and/or Sauron himself. His targets may seem random at first, but they would be intentionally chosen to cause the most psychological harm. Sauron also probably wouldn't be working alone; he would have cats, werewolves, or vampires with him.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

He does get a

Hmmm?

I guess I wanted Sauron to be doing something other than his catch-and-release program, and not looking afraid to do his own killing.

I mean, isn't capturing, torturing, and using people as tools against their loved ones bad enough? And I'm sure we will have opportunities to get Sauron's hands dirty. But a dead person is useless, while live Elves with enslaved minds can be useful pawns.

He isn't challenging Morgoth for power, just seeking a little more control over the Spell of Bottomless Dread program.

But killing Edhellos is hardly necessary to accomplish this. Is there another reason Sauron would destroy such a useful item?

But it's so much more evil to Angrod live with the knowledge that his wife is a kinslayer, and I think that if Sauron has studied Angrod enough to impersonate him and fool Angrod's wife, he would know that this is something Angrod would never reveal.

While we are allowed to be evil for the sake of evil in what we allow to happen to the characters, Sauron's evil should always have a purpose, at least for now. Leaving Angrod alive just for him to be upset is taking an unnecessary risk. Like Prof. Olsen, I appreciate the value of putting Edhellos' death in Sauron's hands, and of having the predecessor to Narsil be broken in combat with him. But like the Professor, I find myself having difficulty with Sauron being present on this battlefield.

 

[MithLuin]

I agree that Sauron is not afraid to do his own killing. But that's not really in question. I am merely suggesting that there's not much sadistic glee in Sauron murdering an elf. He'll do it if there's a reason to, and it won't be hard for him, but...he's not exactly getting off on that, to put it crudely. He has no problem ordering his underlings to take care of that for him.

The Catch-and-Release program is a two season arc. In Season 4, he began taking captives. In Season 5, he's going to perfect Spell-of-Bottomless-Dread-Lite (more like mesmerization), and get to the 'release' part of the program, sending out his sleeper agents. Annael's discovery will be part of that storyline. There will likely be a tie-in to the Battle of Sudden Flame, too.

Can Sauron do other things in Season 5? Perhaps. We've not yet planned Season 5. But we have planned the Catch-and-Release program, and we're not done with it yet, so I just want to remind people that we do have things for Sauron to be doing in Season 5 already.

 

[Rhiannon]

Hmmm?



I mean, isn't capturing, torturing, and using people as tools against their loved ones bad enough? And I'm sure we will have opportunities to get Sauron's hands dirty. But a dead person is useless, while live Elves with enslaved minds can be useful pawns.



But killing Edhellos is hardly necessary to accomplish this. Is there another reason Sauron would destroy such a useful item?


While we are allowed to be evil for the sake of evil in what we allow to happen to the characters, Sauron's evil should always have a purpose, at least for now. Leaving Angrod alive just for him to be upset is taking an unnecessary risk. Like Prof. Olsen, I appreciate the value of putting Edhellos' death in Sauron's hands, and of having the predecessor to Narsil be broken in combat with him. But like the Professor, I find myself having difficulty with Sauron being present on this battlefield.

We've established already that Sauron's forces are present in this battle because they are capturing Elves. I don't see why Sauron himself wouldn't go with them.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

We've established already that Sauron's forces are present in this battle because they are capturing Elves. I don't see why Sauron himself wouldn't go with them.

This is a point that I know Professor Olsen was ok with, but on further examination, I found drew more questions than I think we have time to answer, as stated above.

 

[Haakon]

I think that we all have a natural desire to show the cruelty and evil deeds of Sauron and all of the Bad Guys, but I also believe that it is good to be careful and selective. I believe the Enemy is most happy when the Children of Ilúvatar cause their own death. It makes them (the Children of Ilúvatar) look weaker and not fit for life. In this case, Edhellos is of course killed in battle, so it's not like an Elf kills her. But her death can look more or less suicidal (I think more is better than less). And Sauron, being smarter than Gothmog, will certainly keep away from the battlefield, since he has no faith in Gothmog's strategic capacity. He has the traits of a cold-blooded psycopath, but without the serial killer traits. It's more like he, one of Aulë's people, considers everything as he considers material. He wants to mold things and beings like he would work in a smithy, and empathy and emotions are just skills, tools in the manipulation toolbox. He seems to feel fear and hate though, as psycopaths also often can. Well, this is a subject for another time....
My vote is that Sauron stays away.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Hmmm?



I mean, isn't capturing, torturing, and using people as tools against their loved ones bad enough? And I'm sure we will have opportunities to get Sauron's hands dirty. But a dead person is useless, while live Elves with enslaved minds can be useful pawns.



But killing Edhellos is hardly necessary to accomplish this. Is there another reason Sauron would destroy such a useful item?


While we are allowed to be evil for the sake of evil in what we allow to happen to the characters, Sauron's evil should always have a purpose, at least for now. Leaving Angrod alive just for him to be upset is taking an unnecessary risk. Like Prof. Olsen, I appreciate the value of putting Edhellos' death in Sauron's hands, and of having the predecessor to Narsil be broken in combat with him. But like the Professor, I find myself having difficulty with Sauron being present on this battlefield.

I guess I kinda forgot about that point; it was that Sauron does play a ”game” with Finrod, Beren and their companions when he locks them in the dungeons of Tol-en-Gaurhoth and sends a werewolf into the dungeon to see who’d crack first and spill the beans.

 

[Rhiannon]

I have Sauron personally torturing Edhellos in Episodes 7 and 8.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

I guess I kinda forgot about that point; it was that Sauron does play a ”game” with Finrod, Beren and their companions when he locks them in the dungeons of Tol-en-Gaurhoth and sends a werewolf into the dungeon to see who’d crack first and spill the beans.

But that has a point beyond the "game". To try and make them crack.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

To kind of illustrate my point about how difficult the scripting of battle scenes is, I present this scene:

Which comes from this line in the film's script:

LEGOLAS JUMPS onto the
BACK of a GIANT MUMAKIL bringing it down ... he lands on his
feet in front of GIMLI . . .