Session 4-27, 4-28: Post-production Script Review, Parts 3 and 4

I’m saying I think that is entirely implausible. He will not wade solo through a battle to deliver a message, not to Gothmog (for any reason), not to anyone (well, probably to Morgoth).
That's why I had Sauron disguise himself as an Orc before he delivered the message.
 
Right. And Gothmog was right near Angband when it happened. And Sauron can fly. That's not going to cut it.


Likely with Sauron, safe in Angband. Or raiding the relatively unprotected settlements of Beleriand, and kidnapping people who aren't soldiers ready for (or engaged in) battle.
Sauron can fly, but there's a bunch of Elves with bows around, and he doesn't want to draw attention to himself.

If Morgoth won't allow the Balrogs to stay home, why would he let Sauron do so?
 
That's why I had Sauron disguise himself as an Orc before he delivered the message.
I would vote against such a solution. For many reasons. Mainly because it could be dangerous, and because it would be in conflict with Sauron’s pride.
 
Just to be transparent (if I wasn't): I'm more or less happy with Sauron staying away. If he were to be present in the battle, and kill Edhellos, we will force the execs to go back to wanting to kill Angrod again.

If we’re going along with the Hosts’ idea that Morgoth’s throwing all he can spare (hence the presence of Balrogs), then he would, theoretically, send Sauron as another asset.
I don't think it was ever meant to be the total onslaught, emptying Angband.
 
Just to be transparent (if I wasn't): I'm more or less happy with Sauron staying away. If he were to be present in the battle, and kill Edhellos, we will force the execs to go back to wanting to kill Angrod again.
That’s why I’ve been trying to write a script where Sauron is plausibility present and the Balrogs do something other than kill Angrod to work around the Balrog Rule.
 
Here are eight other reasons I've thought of for Sauron to be present on the battlefield. Which of these sound the most plausible?
  1. Sauron was in charge of directing the building the earthworks (He is a former Maia of Aule, after all)
  2. Needs to be in that area to work some kind of magic to extend Morgoth's cloud cover
  3. Sauron plans to take his troops down to capture Minas Tirith now that most of the Noldor have been lured into the Fens of Serech
  4. Delivering some kind of message from Morgoth to Gothmog
  5. Just flying over the battlefield in Vampire form to see what is going on
  6. In disguise as a soldier from Dorthonion
  7. Morgoth tasked him with observing Edhellos (This is the first time they've used the Spell of Bottomless Dread, so it's kind of an experiment)
  8. Gothmog called him there because the Elves are doing a little better than Gothmog expected and he wants Sauron's troops to engage now
 
  1. Sauron was in charge of directing the building the earthworks (He is a former Maia of Aule, after all)
  2. Needs to be in that area to work some kind of magic to extend Morgoth's cloud cover
  3. Sauron plans to take his troops down to capture Minas Tirith now that most of the Noldor have been lured into the Fens of Serech
  4. Delivering some kind of message from Morgoth to Gothmog
  5. Just flying over the battlefield in Vampire form to see what is going on
  6. In disguise as a soldier from Dorthonion
  7. Morgoth tasked him with observing Edhellos (This is the first time they've used the Spell of Bottomless Dread, so it's kind of an experiment)
  8. Gothmog called him there because the Elves are doing a little better than Gothmog expected and he wants Sauron's troops to engage now
1. Not sure how this would be relevant in battle.
2. Would certainly place him close to the battle, but he wouldn't be on the battlefield.
3. That sounds like he's passing through, which means he isn't involved in the battle - so he's not on the battlefield.
4. I'm totally against Sauron as a messenger.
5. He could do that. But that isn't on the battlefield. Do you mean that he could then descend and hover above Gothmog to talk to him?
6. I don't believe he'd do such a thing. He'd have to have a number of his entourage in disguise with him, or he'd risk getting harmed.
7. I think this puts way too much importance in the Edhellos project.
8. Sauron hasn't been Morgoth's subordinate before (and I suggest that he never is). Morgoth could see that they're doing less well and send Sauron, but it seems more probable that he orders his armies to retreat.
 
1. Not sure how this would be relevant in battle.
2. Would certainly place him close to the battle, but he wouldn't be on the battlefield.
3. That sounds like he's passing through, which means he isn't involved in the battle - so he's not on the battlefield.
4. I'm totally against Sauron as a messenger.
5. He could do that. But that isn't on the battlefield. Do you mean that he could then descend and hover above Gothmog to talk to him?
6. I don't believe he'd do such a thing. He'd have to have a number of his entourage in disguise with him, or he'd risk getting harmed.
7. I think this puts way too much importance in the Edhellos project.
8. Sauron hasn't been Morgoth's subordinate before (and I suggest that he never is). Morgoth could see that they're doing less well and send Sauron, but it seems more probable that he orders his armies to retreat.
Thanks for the feedback!

1. Sauron would be present behind the earthworks
2. He doesn't need to be on the battlefield, only near enough to see what's happening
3. same as 2
5. same as 2. I like having a scene where Sauron talks to Gothmog to play on the rivalry between them and help explain to the viewers the bad guys' strategy, but it isn't absolutely necessary.
6. He could have an entourage with him, although I think Sauron is pretty much invulnerable to the weapons the Elves have at this point. I have a cool idea of him being disguised as a soldier on the front line then making himself appear to be wounded and finding a vantage point where he can pretend to be a corpse and watch the battle, but there are plenty of other things he could be doing in disguise behind Elven lines.
8. Another possibility is that Sauron could have seen how the battle was going and offer to Gothmog that they engage, and Gothmog could dismiss him with something like "You said the Feanorians weren't coming. We can handle this."
 
1. I’m kind of slow now... Could you tell me what this means exactly?
2-3 and 5. I thought you wanted him on the battlefield?
6. Again, I think this makes too much of his ‘relationship’ to Edhellos. It’s one thing to move around in disguise at a party, a totally different thing to do it in a battle where you know rather little about what might happen or what the benefits could be, immortal or not.
8. It’s just that it would risk putting some of the failure of the battle in Sauron’s lap.
 
1. I’m kind of slow now... Could you tell me what this means exactly?
2-3 and 5. I thought you wanted him on the battlefield?
6. Again, I think this makes too much of his ‘relationship’ to Edhellos. It’s one thing to move around in disguise at a party, a totally different thing to do it in a battle where you know rather little about what might happen or what the benefits could be, immortal or not.
8. It’s just that it would risk putting some of the failure of the battle in Sauron’s lap.
1. Gothmog and his army have set up earthworks in the Fens of Serech, which they are attacking the Elves from. If Sauron was responsible for building these or helping with them, he would be near enough to see Edhellos.
2, 3, and 5. If Sauron is close to the battlefield, he will notice Edhellos and be near enough to get to her in time to kill her
6. He could be spying or interfering with communications or planning to capture someone else.
8. Actually, if Gothmog dismisses Sauron's offer, it would make Gothmog look even more like an idiot.
 
1. I don’t think Sauron should be involved in the battle preparations. He should stay away.
2-3 and 5. But that would still demand him going into the heat of the battle. There’s no way to put him in the actual battle.
6. We don’t have any plot line that could support such activity.
8. Not if his dismissal is based on Sauron’s bad intel.
 
1. I don’t think Sauron should be involved in the battle preparations. He should stay away.
2-3 and 5. But that would still demand him going into the heat of the battle. There’s no way to put him in the actual battle.
6. We don’t have any plot line that could support such activity.
8. Not if his dismissal is based on Sauron’s bad intel.
2-3 and 5. I've never had Sauron doing any real fighting. He stands well back from the front lines and Edhellos runs to him.
6. It would not be hard to add one. I have several messengers and scouts reporting different things to the lords of the Noldor, and Sauron could interfere with one or more of them. Or, we could identify a target that he plans to capture by having him focus on that Elf.
8. They lose the battle based on Sauron's bad intel no matter what. I don't see how this makes it worse.
 
Oh...uh....huh.

Well this is interesting.

So.

I'm not about to wade into all of this.


I am a bit frustrated by the approaches to plot happening in this thread. It might be unintentional, but it seems *very* much as though we're starting with desired outcomes, and then attempting to force the characters to dance like marionettes to make certain things happen. That is not at all how I think we should go about planning an episode.

We are telling a story. So overall story goals are important. We have developed characters, given them motivations and goals and personalities. We have planned out 4 seasons of this show.

Here is what is meant to happen in this battle:
  • Angband takes the offensive.
  • Gothmog, commanding troops of balrogs, trolls, and orcs, attacks the Noldor. The attack is focused on Minas Tirith.
  • A secondary attack on Vinyamar is meant to take the Noldor by surprise. It succeeds in occupying Turgon.
  • The Noldor are ultimately successful, and Gothmog's forces are driven back to Angband. Neither Minas Tirith nor Vinyamar fall.
The audience's experience of tension should look like this (leaving aside the Turgon subplot - that affects the tension, but let's focus on the main plot here):
  • Morgoth's darkness spreading across the land is ominous and foreboding.
  • Dorthonion mobilizes, and Edhellos killing the messenger should raise levels of CONCERN. What will she do next? Will the elves discover her treachery?
  • Fingolfin's forces are mobilized, and Aredhel being left behind in Barad Eithel should be a nod to Eowyn left behind in Dunharrow. The audience trusts that this army will be enough to confront the orcs, but they do have to get there.
  • Minas Tirith looks vulnerable as an army of enemies puts it under siege, but the elves defend it valiantly and look like they may be able to outlast it.
  • Reinforcements arrive! Dorthonion and Fingolfin to the rescue. The elves easily rout the orcs. The audience has a moment of relief, but it is short-lived.
  • But wait...there's *another* army of bad guys. Aredhel wants to warn her father and brother; Rhogrin goes instead. Rhogrin's message does not arrive. The audience anticipates that Fingolfin, Finrod, and Angrod will be unprepared for the approaching army.
  • At the Fens of Serech, the Noldor armies encounter an entrenched army of orcs waiting for them. It's larger than the one they routed. They are stalled, and the army of Gothmog comes down on them. Now the fighting is grimmer, and the audience should have some growing concern for the elves' success. Balrogs are scary and deadly.
  • Nadir of hope. Now, the elves lose hope that reinforcements are coming. Turgon has turned back, and Angrod's messenger never reached the Fëanoreans. Angrod is devastated by Edhellos' treachery. Death of Edhellos.
  • Eucatastrophe - Arrival of Fëanorean cavalry in a pincer move devastating to Angband's forces.
  • Gothmog retreats; aftermath of battle; mourning the dead, etc.
This battle is Episode 9 out of 13. We're just past the midpoint of the Season...this would be a way to come back from a 'break' in the TV scheduling. We're not trying to end the Season, and what happens here has to fit into the bigger picture. Since there are practically no Sindar in this episode...the focus is on the intra-Noldor conflicts. Allowing the Fëanoreans to save the day unlooked for goes a long way to ingratiating them to the Host of Fingolfin who have not forgotten their long ordeal crossing the Helcaraxë.

Certainly, there's more than one way to achieve this outline of the battle. One can alter the details as necessary to tell the story. But I am not a fan of this endless invention of subplots just to make something play out in a particular way.

There is no reason not to have Gothmog kill Edhellos. None. It's something Gothmog would do, they're both on the battlefield, and it makes sense as an end to her arc. Are there other ways she could die? Sure. She could simply run into the front line and get taken out by orcs/trolls in a suicidal rush. She could run away and drown in the swamp. A bolt of lightning from the blue could strike her dead. I'm not worried about coming up with alternate ways to kill her. I am concerned with why we think it important to do so.

I know you have written Sauron killing her, Rhiannon. And it is true that Corey Olsen spoke positively of the scene you wrote (with the light through the clouds and the stone troll, etc). But he also said he didn't think it fit the story to have Sauron kill Edhellos. He essentially vetoed that idea. One can disagree with him, sure. But, at the end of the day, one does have to accept that this is his project, and recognize that his decisions will stand moving forward.

You have the opportunity to try to convince people, but if you fail to convince, the answer isn't always to keep arguing for your own personal vision. Sometimes, you have to try to figure out how to preserve what you think is essential while working with someone else's idea.

So, if you want my honest feedback, it would be to take the parts you liked best about the Edhellos death scenes you've written, and substitute Gothmog for Sauron. There's no reason to lose the ray of sunlight and her final prayer for Angrod. But all of this effort to put Sauron in that scene looks and feels contrived and unsatisfactory.

I am not at all convinced that we lose *anything* by not having Sauron personally kill Gil-galad's grandmother that he will never meet. Sauron's torture of Edhellos was sufficiently personal, no? Nor do I think it important that Sauron personally break Aegnor's Valinorean sword to inspire Maedhros to commission a dwarven-made replacement that will be Narsil. Narsil being a replacement for a broken sword is sufficient dramatic irony. Sauron is going to have some very personal run-ins with characters - Finrod and Celebrimbor, for instance - but it's not necessary here. Obviously Tolkien didn't write it that way, and it's not required for our story, either.


I remain thoroughly unconvinced that Angrod needs to survive this battle. Sure, he *can* survive, and I'm fine with that, but I don't think it's very important one way or another if he dies now or dies in the Dagor Bragollach. Corey Olsen likewise isn't set on his survival, though he would actually prefer if Angrod die now. So, yes, you were granted a reprieve with the death of Angrod being postponed until late Season 5. But that reprieve was conditional. It was conditional on the death of Edhellos satisfying the balrog rule by having the balrogs in the battle kill a major character the audience knows and cares about.

But I don't think it's even a question of which is more important to you - the survival of Angrod, or having Sauron personally kill Edhellos. You were able to convince Corey Olsen that the death of Angrod was unnecessary (because the death of Edhellos filled that role). As our two hour discussion of Episode 9 showed, you were not successful at convincing him that Sauron should be on that battlefield or the one to kill Edhellos. Nick and I weren't convinced, either. Neither is Haakon. Please keep that in mind moving forward.
 
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Oh...uh....huh.

Well this is interesting.

So.

I'm not about to wade into all of this.


I am a bit frustrated by the approaches to plot happening in this thread. It might be unintentional, but it seems *very* much as though we're starting with desired outcomes, and then attempting to force the characters to dance like marionettes to make certain things happen. That is not at all how I think we should go about planning an episode.

We are telling a story. So overall story goals are important. We have developed characters, given them motivations and goals and personalities. We have planned out 4 seasons of this show.

Here is what is meant to happen in this battle:
  • Angband takes the offensive.
  • Gothmog, commanding troops of balrogs, trolls, and orcs, attacks the Noldor. The attack is focused on Minas Tirith.
  • A secondary attack on Vinyamar is meant to take the Noldor by surprise. It succeeds in occupying Turgon.
  • The Noldor are ultimately successful, and Gothmog's forces are driven back to Angband. Neither Minas Tirith nor Vinyamar fall.
The audience's experience of tension should look like this (leaving aside the Turgon subplot - that affects the tension, but let's focus on the main plot here):
  • Morgoth's darkness spreading across the land is ominous and foreboding.
  • Dorthonion mobilizes, and Edhellos killing the messenger should raise levels of CONCERN. What will she do next? Will the elves discover her treachery?
  • Fingolfin's forces are mobilized, and Aredhel being left behind in Barad Eithel should be a nod to Eowyn left behind in Dunharrow. The audience trusts that this army will be enough to confront the orcs, but they do have to get there.
  • Minas Tirith looks vulnerable as an army of enemies puts it under siege, but the elves defend it valiantly and look like they may be able to outlast it.
  • Reinforcements arrive! Dorthonion and Fingolfin to the rescue. The elves easily rout the orcs. The audience has a moment of relief, but it is short-lived.
  • But wait...there's *another* army of bad guys. Aredhel wants to warn her father and brother; Rhogrin goes instead. Rhogrin's message does not arrive. The audience anticipates that Fingolfin, Finrod, and Angrod will be unprepared for the approaching army.
  • At the Fens of Serech, the Noldor armies encounter an entrenched army of orcs waiting for them. It's larger than the one they routed. They are stalled, and the army of Gothmog comes down on them. Now the fighting is grimmer, and the audience should have some growing concern for the elves' success. Balrogs are scary and deadly.
  • Nadir of hope. Now, the elves lose hope that reinforcements are coming. Turgon has turned back, and Angrod's messenger never reached the Fëanoreans. Angrod is devastated by Edhellos' treachery. Death of Edhellos.
  • Eucatastrophe - Arrival of Fëanorean cavalry in a pincer move devastating to Angband's forces.
  • Gothmog retreats; aftermath of battle; mourning the dead, etc.
This battle is Episode 9 out of 13. We're just past the midpoint of the Season...this would be a way to come back from a 'break' in the TV scheduling. We're not trying to end the Season, and what happens here has to fit into the bigger picture. Since there are practically no Sindar in this episode...the focus is on the intra-Noldor conflicts. Allowing the Fëanoreans to save the day unlooked for goes a long way to ingratiating them to the Host of Fingolfin who have not forgotten their long ordeal crossing the Helcaraxë.

Certainly, there's more than one way to achieve this outline of the battle. One can alter the details as necessary to tell the story. But I am not a fan of this endless invention of subplots just to make something play out in a particular way.

There is no reason not to have Gothmog kill Edhellos. None. It's something Gothmog would do, they're both on the battlefield, and it makes sense as an end to her arc. Are there other ways she could die? Sure. She could simply run into the front line and get taken out by orcs/trolls in a suicidal rush. She could run away and drown in the swamp. A bolt of lightning from the blue could strike her dead. I'm not worried about coming up with alternate ways to kill her. I am concerned with why we think it important to do so.

I know you have written Sauron killing her, Rhiannon. And it is true that Corey Olsen spoke positively of the scene you wrote (with the light through the clouds and the stone troll, etc). But he also said he didn't think it fit the story to have Sauron kill Edhellos. He essentially vetoed that idea. One can disagree with him, sure. But, at the end of the day, one does have to accept that this is his project, and recognize that his decisions will stand moving forward.

You have the opportunity to try to convince people, but if you fail to convince, the answer isn't always to keep arguing for your own personal vision. Sometimes, you have to try to figure out how to preserve what you think is essential while working with someone else's idea.

So, if you want my honest feedback, it would be to take the parts you liked best about the Edhellos death scenes you've written, and substitute Gothmog for Sauron. There's no reason to lose the ray of sunlight and her final prayer for Angrod. But all of this effort to put Sauron in that scene looks and feels contrived and unsatisfactory.

I am not at all convinced that we lose *anything* by not having Sauron personally kill Gil-galad's grandmother that he will never meet. Sauron's torture of Edhellos was sufficiently personal, no? Nor do I think it important that Sauron personally break Aegnor's Valinorean sword to inspire Maedhros to commission a dwarven-made replacement that will be Narsil. Narsil being a replacement for a broken sword is sufficient dramatic irony. Sauron is going to have some very personal run-ins with characters - Finrod and Celebrimbor, for instance - but it's not necessary here. Obviously Tolkien didn't write it that way, and it's not required for our story, either.


I remain thoroughly unconvinced that Angrod needs to survive this battle. Sure, he *can* survive, and I'm fine with that, but I don't think it's very important one way or another if he dies now or dies in the Dagor Bragollach. Corey Olsen likewise isn't set on his survival, though he would actually prefer if Angrod die now. So, yes, you were granted a reprieve with the death of Angrod being postponed until late Season 5. But that reprieve was conditional. It was conditional on the death of Edhellos satisfying the balrog rule by having the balrogs in the battle kill a major character the audience knows and cares about.

But I don't think it's even a question of which is more important to you - the survival of Angrod, or having Sauron personally kill Edhellos. You were able to convince Corey Olsen that the death of Angrod was unnecessary (because the death of Edhellos filled that role). As our two hour discussion of Episode 9 showed, you were not successful at convincing him that Sauron should be on that battlefield or the one to kill Edhellos. Nick and I weren't convinced, either. Neither is Haakon. Please keep that in mind moving forward.
Well, we could have Sauron snipe her (for lack of a better term for killing her at long range) from afar after Morgoth "ungags" her. Sauron's a utilitarian guy, he's not going to use a spy who's been outed. I can see the argument for getting Sauron involved; the Hosts seem to think that they need to throw in the Balrogs, so why shouldn't Morgoth throw in one of his top assets? On the other hand, Sauron has an abysmal track record with fights; he gets humiliated by Luthien and Huan and forced to flee, then gets brought down by a Man and an Elf (albeit them getting killed in the process). For someone who's supposed to be the resident Evil Overlord, that's not very good credibility when you can get beaten by Elves, Men, and a wolfhound (albeit a large, magical one).
 
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Sauron has an abysmal track record with fights; he gets humiliated by Luthien and Huan and forced to flee, then gets brought down by a Man and an Elf (albeit them getting killed in the process). For someone who's supposed to be the resident Evil Overlord, that's not very good credibility when you can get beaten by Elves, Men, and a wolfhound (albeit a large one).
I know you’re planning ahead but I think that the fact that’s none of those events have occurred yet should make them less important in the discussion about this battle.
Sauron could kill off Edhellos from a distance, yes, but then

We would have to kill off Angrod.

This is a choice between two things: either we force Sauron into a battle where he’s not supposed to be, and kill off Angrod before the Bragollach, or we let Gothmog kill Edhellos, and Sauron loses a spy in a different way.
 
I know you’re planning ahead but I think that the fact that’s none of those events have occurred yet should make them less important in the discussion about this battle.
Sauron could kill off Edhellos from a distance, yes, but then

We would have to kill off Angrod.

This is a choice between two things: either we force Sauron into a battle where he’s not supposed to be, and kill off Angrod before the Bragollach, or we let Gothmog kill Edhellos, and Sauron loses a spy in a different way.
I don't have a problem with killing off Angrod or keeping him alive. I just don't know how he could be kept alive if he can see Edhellos' demise and doesn't get killed. Aegnor would have to pommel him over the head and drag him away.
 
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