Script Discussion S04E13 Finale!

I haven't had a chance to sit down with it like I did E12 (being old and having needed sleep and having not yet completed the tasks of the day today), but I was a bit confused about why Fingon's horse has to jump a wall of flame rather than just run in the opposite direction.
Because the dragon is in the opposite direction. Glaurung's first blast of fire separates Fingon and Celegorm, then Glaurung stays on the side with Fingon and Fingon's horse runs towards Celegorm.
 
Because the dragon is in the opposite direction. Glaurung's first blast of fire separates Fingon and Celegorm, then Glaurung stays on the side with Fingon and Fingon's horse runs towards Celegorm.
So this wall of fire is perpendicular to the direction is coming from?
 
Ah. So rather than running off in a (relative to up) southwest direction, the horse jumps a wall of fire tall enough to obscure a human-sized character? I still have trouble buying it.
 
Ah. So rather than running off in a (relative to up) southwest direction, the horse jumps a wall of fire tall enough to obscure a human-sized character? I still have trouble buying it.
It may not be that tall yet when the horse jumps it. Celegorm is on the ground when he sees the horse jump.
 
It may not be that tall yet when the horse jumps it. Celegorm is on the ground when he sees the horse jump.

The fire would likely be at its height immediately at it's application, going down as its fuel burned up. But more importantly, horses are extremely reluctant to go through or over or anywhere near fire. It doesn't seem like the benefit outweighs the break with realism here.
 
The fire would likely be at its height immediately at it's application, going down as its fuel burned up. But more importantly, horses are extremely reluctant to go through or over or anywhere near fire. It doesn't seem like the benefit outweighs the break with realism here.
I'm not sure that's how the fire would work. I imagine Glaurung's fire breath working kind of like a flamethrower. There would be an initial blast, which would be a huge stream of flame. This would not set all the fuel immediately on fire, especially since it has fairly recently rained. The driest bits at the top of the brush would catch, but the flames would not be at their full height until they have been able to burn more of the fuel. How long flames take to achieve their full height depends on the type of fuel and various atmospheric conditions. Also, there would be quite a bit of smoke coming up, which would do more to obscure the other characters than just the flames.
 
The 'Cowboy Up' competition at the Calgary Stampede showcases what types of obstacles a rider can convince a horse to navigate, and many of them are indeed things that horses don't like at all - backing through tight quarters, standing still while the rider dismounts and walks away, walking across plastic sheeting or a bridge with moving parts, having something noisy dragged behind them, etc. I don't know that that competition has ever involved fire in any way. And your 'average' horse will spook over leaves skittering across the road in the wind (because, you know, it could be a rattlesnake....) Horses are prey animals and have the associated instincts...though of course they can be trained for war.

Fear of fire is innate and fundamental. Are there circumstances in which it can be overcome? Sure.
Here's a video of a horse crossing smoking embers to rescue other horses from a California wildfire:
The story there:

A more typical reaction is of course to stampede in the opposite direction:

Trick rider/circus performer Jessica Blair can get her horses to jump flames. Granted...these are small flames that don't harm the horses. And she trains them for these stunts, obviously.

So, *can* an elven rider convince a horse to leap flames? Possibly. Is it realistic for a horse who has never seen a dragon before to leap over a wall of dragon flame? No, not really. To run through a gap in the flames, maybe, as the wall dies down.

Consider the wall of flame that (very temporarily) divides the battlefield in the first Narnia film (0:28 s into this video). It doesn't look like something anyone would want to try to leap through....
 
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The 'Cowboy Up' competition at the Calgary Stampede showcases what types of obstacles a rider can convince a horse to navigate, and many of them are indeed things that horses don't like at all - backing through tight quarters, standing still while the rider dismounts and walks away, walking across plastic sheeting or a bridge with moving parts, having something noisy dragged behind them, etc. I don't know that that competition has ever involved fire in any way. And your 'average' horse will spook over leaves skittering across the road in the wind (because, you know, it could be a rattlesnake....) Horses are prey animals and have the associated instincts...though of course they can be trained for war.

Fear of fire is innate and fundamental. Are there circumstances in which it can be overcome? Sure.
Here's a video of a horse crossing smoking embers to rescue other horses from a California wildfire:
The story there:

A more typical reaction is of course to stampede in the opposite direction:

Trick rider/circus performer Jessica Blair can get her horses to jump flames. Granted...these are small flames that don't harm the horses. And she trains them for these stunts, obviously.

So, *can* an elven rider convince a horse to leap flames? Possibly. Is it realistic for a horse who has never seen a dragon before to leap over a wall of dragon flame? No, not really. To run through a gap in the flames, maybe, as the wall dies down.

Consider the wall of flame that (very temporarily) divides the battlefield in the first Narnia film (0:28s into this video). It doesn't look like something anyone would want to try to leap through....
The height of the flames in the video with the trick rider, but with more smoke, is about what I was imagining the horse jumping over, but I'll change it to say the horse runs through a gap.
 
I'm not sure that's how the fire would work. I imagine Glaurung's fire breath working kind of like a flamethrower. There would be an initial blast, which would be a huge stream of flame. This would not set all the fuel immediately on fire, especially since it has fairly recently rained. The driest bits at the top of the brush would catch, but the flames would not be at their full height until they have been able to burn more of the fuel. How long flames take to achieve their full height depends on the type of fuel and various atmospheric conditions. Also, there would be quite a bit of smoke coming up, which would do more to obscure the other characters than just the flames.

In a flamethrower, the fuel that is on fire is in the stream, and if Glaurung is projecting flame, this is likely the case for him. I would try an experiment, if you can. Throw some gasoline on damp grass and immediately light it. There will be an immediate gout of flame that dies down (quite quickly actually). I've also during past discussions calculated dragonfire as having a temperature of over 3000 degrees Fahrenheit (based on the heat required to melt a ring which cannot be melted even in forges which smelt steel) A horse leaping over dragonfire of any height is likely dead (as is someone hiding behind a tree which is bisecting a gout of fire, by the way).
 
In a flamethrower, the fuel that is on fire is in the stream, and if Glaurung is projecting flame, this is likely the case for him. I would try an experiment, if you can. Throw some gasoline on damp grass and immediately light it. There will be an immediate gout of flame that dies down (quite quickly actually). I've also during past discussions calculated dragonfire as having a temperature of over 3000 degrees Fahrenheit (based on the heat required to melt a ring which cannot be melted even in forges which smelt steel) A horse leaping over dragonfire of any height is likely dead (as is someone hiding behind a tree which is bisecting a gout of fire, by the way).
Yes, but Glaurung isn't shoting his stream of fire along the ground. He's aiming at the group of Elves, which Fingon and Celegorm are slightly in front of, so that's where whatever he's projecting is going to land.
 
Act 1 I feel is quite solid. I haven't gone over every word of dialogue, but I don't think I shall have time to do so.

CELEBRIMBOR ... I know. I have heard that Sauron slew her as he wore the face of thy father.

Even if this worked under the current state of our story, I feel like giving this description is a bit tone-deaf for Celebrimbor.

MAGLOR Hello, Orodreth, Meril, and Celebrimbor. DAERON We were wondering if ye would be willing to listen to me play – MAGLOR - and to me play – DAERON - and determine who is the better minstrel. Orodreth, Meril, and Celebrimbor look at each other for a moment then simultaneously turn back to Maglor and Daeron and speak in unison.

This ... felt a bit anime to me. I get the payoff with Thingol at the end, which is funny, and I get that Maedhros is delivering a line from the book. It's just that... these guys are grown-ups, and it kind of felt like they were past this.

Though it turned out better that ye were late. Had ye been there on time, ye would only have been slain as well. Fingon realizes that was an insult to his men’s fighting ability. He spurs his horse again, drawing back alongside Celegorm.
See, I'm not sure that it truly is an insult. It feels like it could truly be a bit of realization on the part of Celegorm that he isn't really being fair. Fingon might take it as an insult, but I would want Celegorm's actor to be aware that there is more there.

Ok, back to some dragonfire. I'm sorry, if there is a wall of dragonfire, it seems to me based upon what we know to be too hot for a horse to jump. The horse has safer directions in which to travel and would likely do so. I get that you're trying to A) separate Celeborn and Fingon to elevate the tension, and B) make it appear as if Fingon might be dead. I don't think seeing Fingon's riderless horse brave this kind of unnecessary danger is necessary to do this. It's a small detail, but it is along the lines of the sort of thing I have complained about in other films.

Fingon hears an enormous roar behind him and turns to stand with his back to the tree just in time. Another blast of fire comes from directly behind Fingon, but he is shielded from it by the tree. Fingon tries to shout to the Archer and Soldier, but no sound comes out.

And this is more of the same. Fingon's either dead or spending some time in a Burn Unit after this.


Celegorm neighs to them, directing them to run in the same direction as Fingon’s horse.

I'd almost forgotten about this during the fire thing. We've talked about this before you came onboard, but I don't know if it has come up since. Celegorm speaks to animals in his own language and they understand them. We decided a while back that he doesn't make animal noises when talking to them.

They shall fire at your command.

This is a nitpicky one, but arrows weren't "fired" but "loosed" or "shot". "Fire" didn't come along for this purpose until the advent of gunpowder. I'm thinking that "loose" would be the best fit here.

Glaurung tries to climb up the side of the canyon that Elrhun is on. He gets up almost over the edge, but Elrhun rallies the archers on that side, and they force Glaurung back down into the canyon. Glaurung turns to the other side and tries to climb it, but one of Fingon’s arrows right between his eyes makes him think otherwise. Glaurung flees out the entrance of the canyon. The Elves pursue him.

So, when we talked about this, we discussed having the archers on the side opposite the one Glaurung was climbing be the ones to drive him to turn back. I'll explain why: If the archers on one side can keep him from getting at them, they wouldn't need two sides for this to work. Large animals' skulls are relatively resistant to arrows (and even gunfire sometimes), and Glaurung is likely no exception. An arrow between the eyes isn't likely to bother him overmuch. However, while Glaurung is climbing the cliff on one side, his back (unarmored at this point in our story) is exposed to arrows from the opposite side. This gets to the point where he feels like he has to deal with the other side, and the situation is now reversed.
 
Comments on Episode 13:

The Frame seems sufficiently celebratory and a good ending to the story over the course of the season. It might suffer from 'too many endings', but I understand having to show Erebor, Dale, and the Woodland Realm in the end.

ACT I:

The 'peace montages' are nice, with lots of focus on growth, but with a melancholy elvish air to it as well with deserted Vinyamar.

Celeborn sounds surprised to learn that Thingol has not lifted the Ban. There is no reason for Galadriel to be better informed than he is on this matter. Perhaps he is meant to sound more exasperated? While the 'hey, time to get married' cold open might seem a bit abrupt, the rest of the beats and transitions in this conversation hit fairly well. With maybe a comment that Galadriel immediately gets to the 'guess my family can't come' without any other topics discussed. Maybe ease into this at least a bit?

I guess we get points for having characters saying 'hurry, we're late!'...and then having it mean something when they actually do arrive late.

Celegorm taunting Fingon with his own prayer to Manwë is a nice touch. Probably all to the best that Celegorm does not actually name Manwë in his mockery.

ACT II

Hmmm, I dunno what I think about the Meril, Galadriel, Lúthien conversation. Meril...is a hot mess. One, Meril putting herself forward seems very...pushy. She's the young Sinda wife of Galadriel's nephew. Volunteering to stand in as her mother is a bit presumptuous (and forces Galadriel to manage a polite decline). Also, she kinda stipulates that the requirement is 'wedded female relative,' which *does* make her the more appropriate choice than Lúthien, but...the requirement is truly 'actual mother of the bride'. So it sounds as though she is making up rules to insert herself into Galadriel's wedding party. And then she assumes that Lúthien and Daeron are getting married despite no engagement between them. And blurts out that she and Galadriel aren't even really friends. If we want to portray Meril as someone who is young and pushy and clueless, that's fine, but...I don't know that we want that characterization for her? It's like she's going out of her way to put all the feet in her mouth at once - she's causing really intense second-hand embarrassment! I know we want her to be 'unrefined' and not very princess-like, but we're not going for drunken sorority girl, either. A more fitting topic for her to comment on might be how both Galadriel and Orodreth have chosen to marry into the Sindar, and how she'll be happy not to be the only non-Noldo in the family now. Or something. Because Galadriel's assurance that they could be good friends if only they saw more of each other rings completely false. I picture her looking around the room over Meril's head and trying to judge how fast she can get out of this conversation.

Also, while there is nothing wrong with 'rite' in this context, I might choose to say 'custom' instead. We have to go out of our way to avoid associations of this wedding ceremony with a European Christian wedding ceremony.

Ummm. Lúthien should under no circumstances say anything about marrying Daeron. Others can say that about them, but she has never viewed Daeron as anything more than a friend/brother, and she would not herself speculate about a marriage between them, even as a joke or 'what-if'. Daeron is significantly younger than Celeborn; Celeborn was born at Cuivienen, while Daeron was born in what would become Doriath.

Lúthien recruiting Círdan for stand-in father-of-the-groom is less egregious because she is herself already assigned a role in the wedding. And I understand that it might be awkward to have Celeborn approach and ask him just to 'fire' him later when Thingol arrives. But there's a reason you don't volunteer/put yourself forward for wedding party inclusion.... Reminding the audience how close Círdan and Celeborn are/were is good, though, especially with Círdan saddened over the departure of Turgon and Galdor 'forever'.

Wait...why on earth did Galadriel invite 'any random three Fëanoreans' to her wedding? And we're to believe that Celebrimbor invited himself as a wedding guest now? Don't get me wrong, I've 'invited myself' as a +1 on someone's wedding invitation in the past, but it's suuuuuuper awkward if you do that when the invite didn't say +1. Galadriel loathed Fëanor. We are not led to believe that she was particularly close to any of his sons. There will be later interactions with Celebrimbor (after he disowns his entire family), but I think this very much reads like we're starting with Maedhros, Maglor, and Celebrimbor being there....and retroactively justifying that. I think it might be better if she invited all of her half-cousins out of duty, (maybe secretly hoping they wouldn't make the trip), and then Celebrimbor comes in his father's stead so he can see his good buddy Orodreth again? So it's a partial gate-crash, but there was no 'quota' of Fëanoreans involved?

I agree with Nick's comment above - Celebrimbor saying 'I heard of her ordeal' would be sufficient, and then if Orodreth wanted to volunteer more details of her suffering and torment prior to said death, he could, but you don't just say to someone, 'so, hey, about the way your mom was tortured in Angband, yeah?' And Celebrimbor, having a mother who is potentially suffering torment in Angband as they speak, would be sensitive to that.
Example of how not to mingle, via Supernatural - the event that the clueless and socially awkward Elvis refers to happens 7 years prior to this conversation; it's not 'news'; the social event here is a wake.
Also, as a reminder, this conversation is taking place 200 years after the Dagor Aglareb. So, even if Orodreth and Celebrimbor don't get together very often...Edhellos' death and torment are hardly news.

As for Daeron and Maglor - these guys are the best musicians the world has ever seen. Wouldn't they go off into a corner and talk shop or sing duets together or something? I'd rather see them geeking out with one another over music than having a come-uppance thing going on. And, yes, I get that Tolkien was generous with his superlatives and constantly labeling people greatest and eldest and such. But...I highly doubt that either Maglor nor Daeron cared what others would think of them to this degree. I think this is a case where an adaptation tells the story more truly not by finding an excuse to work in a quote from the text, but by imagining the spirit of what that quote means and telling that story. So...what does the greatest minstrel the world has ever seen do when he's invited to a wedding?

Talking about having to eat horses will likely seem like sufficient horror to the audience; a good detail to add to the ordeal of the Helcaraxë that will shock the audience into paying attention to this story.

ACT III

I think the existence of a library is a unique way to show the passage of time and how much the Noldor are 'settling' into Middle-earth. Because apparently Finrod has had time to compose entire books since last we saw him. And, yes, Gondolin and Nargothrond will be able to preserve Noldor culture, so having them be something more than strongholds is represented in the library.

I'm not sure how I feel about Fingolfin saying he would have let Fingon come to the wedding if he'd known Maedhros would be there. "Had I known thou and Maglor were coming to this wedding, I would have asked Fingon to come also rather than overseeing the change of watch himself. " --> "Alas that Fingon did not know you and Maglor would be here. He would no doubt have begged off his responsibilities at Fort Soronume to be here." Fingolfin is High King, but he doesn't micromanage his subjects (even if he is down to 1 out of 3 kids and zero grandkids).

I don't think I like the reference to Sauron shapeshifting. For one thing, it's fairly irrelevant, since they don't think Sauron has anything to do with the beast they are tracking. And, honestly, shapeshifting is your first thought when the trail vanishes? Wouldn't they speculate if the beast could fly, first?

Celegorm neighing at the horses is likely to come across as quite silly in a very serious scene. I know he can speak to them in their language. I'm just not sure...this is the time/place to demonstrate that. He whistles to Huan - can't he do the same to the horses?

The dragon looting the corpse is a nice touch, as is the Lieutenant talking about her father under Glaurung's spell.

ACT IV

Fingolfin should not have to introduce himself. Someone else should offer that introduction between the two kings. Ditto for the Fëanoreans stepping up here.

And I guess we really do have to address what the details of the Ban are regarding wearing gems. Cause this scene has Thingol adorning a Noldo with a gem.

Journey of the Ents montage, eh? Sure, why not. I like it, though I think the audience might expect us to do more with Ents if we give them such a prominent place in the finale. They have a role in Seasons 1-3, but do we have much for them to do before FA 500? I guess we can add them to Season 5.....

Hard to believe that the Thingol of this episode is the same Thingol we saw earlier in the Season. I feel he needs a bit more than his late appearance and this end note. I'm not sure what, though.

I'm not entirely satisfied with Finrod's finding of Men being just a brief tag here at the end, but I know why we're making that choice and I think it's ultimately the right decision.

Typo:
p. 37: "Celegorm, we passed earlier this day a canyon with a wide a wide entrance but steep sides and a narrow exit. Think you the beast we now fight could fit through the narrowest point? "
 
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Horse in Sindarin is:
roch n. “(swift) horse”

And 'Early Noldorin' for mare is:
ᴱN. bregil “mare”

I don't know any names for horse-colors in Sindarin. Obviously, there's a word for 'bay', but it means the body of water, not the color of a horse or the herb. And of course there are words for black and white and brown. Just not bay, chestnut, dun, appaloosa, etc.

baran adj. “brown, golden-brown”
bain adj. “fair, beautiful; fair-haired; good, wholesome, favorable”
morn adj. and n. “black, dark; night”
nim adj. “white”
mith adj. “grey, light grey, pale grey”
ross² adj. “red-haired, copper-coloured”

So, Bainroch for a palomino, maybe?

Similarly, not a lot of horse body parts to go around, like tail or nose or hoof or coat.

hen n. “eye”
S. lheweg n. “ear”
N. finnel n. “(braided) hair”

Nor are there words for 'saddle' or 'rein' of 'bridle' (not surprisingly)
#talraph n. “stirrup”

And of course there's 'noro lim' which is the command 'run swift!'
#legol adj. “[Ilk.] nimble, active, running free”
north n. “riding, race (of people running), charge or gallop”


My first thought was to name a horse 'Warm Breath' But I don't exactly have a Sindarin version of 'warm' There is this in Quenya, though:
Q. árë “sunlight, warmth (especially of the sun); day”
All the Sindarin words seem to mean hot and fire, and I can't name a horse in an episode about dragons 'Fire Breath'
S. faw n. “*breath, puff of breath”
Q. foa “breath, puff of breath”
So, Arefoa might be 'warm breath' in Quenya, if you don't mind a Quenya name for the horse. (Yeah, that requires more thought to put together...)

My second thought was something about running free on the grass, or lover of grass, or gluttonous eater of grass :p
S. laudh n. “gluttonous eating” (more like literally to lick it up)
glae n. “grass”

And third was Cloudy Eye, mostly because those are words I can look up
fanui adj. “cloudy, (lit.) having much cloud”
hen n. “eye”
Fanuihen
 
Sorry, I don’t know what was decided, but when do the elves start using the name Sauron? It’s a minor detail I know but still. They use it in e13 like it’s established.
 
Sorry, I don’t know what was decided, but when do the elves start using the name Sauron? It’s a minor detail I know but still. They use it in e13 like it’s established.
Probably some time in Episode 9 or 10. I haven't rewritten them yet, but I'll make sure that name comes up somehow.
 
The way the discussion went last session, it seems pretty clear that they hear the name "Sauron" in E09 from Gothmog. I don't think they know who or what he is or that he can shapeshift, though.
 
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