Dragon-Helm of Dor-Lomin

Yeah these types look badass! Most most likely would be a look wer won't be aiming for with the good guys...
 
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One benefit I see of a greathelm is that it does look a bit like a welding mask, so I could see it being designed based on the protective masks Dwarves wear at the forges.
greathelm-08-front.jpg
794308_o51


However, I haven't seen many pictures of them with crests.
 
One benefit I see of a greathelm is that it does look a bit like a welding mask, so I could see it being designed based on the protective masks Dwarves wear at the forges.
greathelm-08-front.jpg
794308_o51


However, I haven't seen many pictures of them with crests.
Watch the 1982 tv adaptation of Ivanhoe, the three villains each have a large crest on their greathelms, and one of them has a red dragon on top of theirs.
 
One benefit I see of a greathelm is that it does look a bit like a welding mask, so I could see it being designed based on the protective masks Dwarves wear at the forges.
greathelm-08-front.jpg
794308_o51


However, I haven't seen many pictures of them with crests.

Not a lot of welders want a crest.
 
Yeah, we have to design for two different factors here.

In a battle, it's important to protect your head. Therefore, wearing protective head gear is a thing most soldiers are rather interested in doing, across centuries and cultures.

...And on film, protective head gear tends to block out at least part of the actor's face, and is thus not desirable. Most directors find an excuse for actors to lift visors, remove helmets, and run around without the pesky headgear in the way. Even if it's a battle scene and really not a smart/recommended action.

There are exceptions. Sometimes, seeing the actor's face isn't important. There are roles where it's essential the mask stay on, and sometimes the mask in question is a helmet.

So, in V-for-Vendetta, it's not like you see Hugo Weaving's face. Instead, you see the smiling Guy Fawkes mask.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/KKvvOFIHs4k/maxresdefault.jpg

And in Monty Python's Holy Grail, the Black Knight is able to get through his entire skit with his helmet firmly in place. We don't need to see the face behind this helmet, apparently:

Black-Knight-monty-python-380120_800_441_4197.jpg



No one complains that the Witch-king keeps his helmet/mask in place throughout the Lord of the Rings films...there is no 'face' behind the mask anyway!

witch-king.jpg




Another way to deal with this is to let a character wear a full face covering helmet....briefly. So, we do see it on screen, in a 'see, they aren't an idiot wading into this battle with a bare head!' but...that helmet isn't going to be there when you get to a scene with any emotion in it.

Frodo and Sam disguise themselves as orcs. They wear these costumes for, what, 3 minutes of screen time, if that? Just long enough to make use of the disguise. Then it's back to hobbit-clothes for them.
CYZrGRhUQAAl-YE.jpg


http://corecanvas.s3.amazonaws.com/theonering-0188db0e/gallery/original/frodo-sam-rotk.jpg


Peter Pevensie wisely lowers his visor before charging into battle (bareback on a unicorn, but that's another conversation). And yet, the entire helmet is gone by the time he faces the White Witch. A similar thing happens during the duel with Miraz in Prince Caspian.

Battle-Peter.jpg


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f7/38/a4/f738a44fcd6f989342560a2216393340.jpg


(I haven't seen any versions of The Man in the Iron Mask, so other than knowing that there is indeed a metal mask over someone's face, I have no idea how the situation was handled on film; I presume you see his face at some point?)


If we give the dragon helm a movable faceplate, that allows actors to wear the helm on screen, and lower the visor for an instant in a scene where we want said actor to look menacing and invincible. But then to lift it to deliver lines, have facial expressions, etc. It's probably beneficial to make this a movable piece. And since we know there's a scene where Glaurung taunts Túrin to look at him....we'd want the option to have Túrin flip up the visor on the dragon helm if he is indeed wearing it at that time.

I'm now imagining a helm with a visor that lifts, but with a split down the middle, so it can slide back along the base of the crest. Not sure how practical that would be....
But then the quandary is, how do you have a piece that slides into and out of position over the face...AND also have a dragon crest? Because either the flipped-up visor obscures the dragon and makes it look silly, or else the dragon is in the way of whatever moving parts you want to have. It's a more difficult design to make look cool and not clunky, that's for sure!
 
Yeah, we have to design for two different factors here.

In a battle, it's important to protect your head. Therefore, wearing protective head gear is a thing most soldiers are rather interested in doing, across centuries and cultures.

...And on film, protective head gear tends to block out at least part of the actor's face, and is thus not desirable. Most directors find an excuse for actors to lift visors, remove helmets, and run around without the pesky headgear in the way. Even if it's a battle scene and really not a smart/recommended action.

There are exceptions. Sometimes, seeing the actor's face isn't important. There are roles where it's essential the mask stay on, and sometimes the mask in question is a helmet.

So, in V-for-Vendetta, it's not like you see Hugo Weaving's face. Instead, you see the smiling Guy Fawkes mask.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/KKvvOFIHs4k/maxresdefault.jpg

And in Monty Python's Holy Grail, the Black Knight is able to get through his entire skit with his helmet firmly in place. We don't need to see the face behind this helmet, apparently:

Black-Knight-monty-python-380120_800_441_4197.jpg



No one complains that the Witch-king keeps his helmet/mask in place throughout the Lord of the Rings films...there is no 'face' behind the mask anyway!

witch-king.jpg




Another way to deal with this is to let a character wear a full face covering helmet....briefly. So, we do see it on screen, in a 'see, they aren't an idiot wading into this battle with a bare head!' but...that helmet isn't going to be there when you get to a scene with any emotion in it.

Frodo and Sam disguise themselves as orcs. They wear these costumes for, what, 3 minutes of screen time, if that? Just long enough to make use of the disguise. Then it's back to hobbit-clothes for them.
CYZrGRhUQAAl-YE.jpg


http://corecanvas.s3.amazonaws.com/theonering-0188db0e/gallery/original/frodo-sam-rotk.jpg


Peter Pevensie wisely lowers his visor before charging into battle (bareback on a unicorn, but that's another conversation). And yet, the entire helmet is gone by the time he faces the White Witch. A similar thing happens during the duel with Miraz in Prince Caspian.

Battle-Peter.jpg


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f7/38/a4/f738a44fcd6f989342560a2216393340.jpg


(I haven't seen any versions of The Man in the Iron Mask, so other than knowing that there is indeed a metal mask over someone's face, I have no idea how the situation was handled on film; I presume you see his face at some point?)


If we give the dragon helm a movable faceplate, that allows actors to wear the helm on screen, and lower the visor for an instant in a scene where we want said actor to look menacing and invincible. But then to lift it to deliver lines, have facial expressions, etc. It's probably beneficial to make this a movable piece. And since we know there's a scene where Glaurung taunts Túrin to look at him....we'd want the option to have Túrin flip up the visor on the dragon helm if he is indeed wearing it at that time.

I'm now imagining a helm with a visor that lifts, but with a split down the middle, so it can slide back along the base of the crest. Not sure how practical that would be....
But then the quandary is, how do you have a piece that slides into and out of position over the face...AND also have a dragon crest? Because either the flipped-up visor obscures the dragon and makes it look silly, or else the dragon is in the way of whatever moving parts you want to have. It's a more difficult design to make look cool and not clunky, that's for sure!
I don't think it will be a problem to have the Dragon-helm cover the face of Turin when he is wearing it. It should be distinctive enough to stand out from any other helmets on the battlefield, so the viewers will all know it's Turin.

I think the helmet could be designed so the Dragon crest and the visor worked together.

Here's a helmet with a visor that looks like it slides up over the crest.
middle-ages-knights-knights-armour-helmet-with-visor-germany-circa-BXFM9X.jpg


And here's one with a mask that flips up. If the head of the dragon were at about the point of the spike, it wouldn't be obscured.
images
medieval-slavic-cone-helm-helmet-armor-with-face-mask-visor.jpg


Even your suggestion of a visor with a slit in it might could be made to work.
2497
 
Oh, I agree that the dragon helm will be distinctive enough that the audience will know it's Túrin, even if his face is obscured. My point is that the director isn't going to leave the actor's face obscured for any scenes involving emotion in any way ;).

So, Túrin may be involved in enough fight scenes that are ultimately irrelevant to give us screen time with the visor down, but I'm not comfortable designing the helmet with a fixed full-face covering, as I don't think that's very film-friendly.

I'm not a fan of the faceplate that flips up like a welder's mask. It's an unwieldy look (and will at least partially block the dragon). I do think that a visor that slides over the crest allowing the dragon head to peak out could be interesting (if maybe lower profile than some were expecting). And yes, there may be some way to design a slit for the crest so that the mask is still functional armor and not a 'stab here' slit. Probably will help if the helmet has a nose guard built in. The dragon would likely need to lift off the helm around the top of the head, leaning forward and head cantilevered out. That could be an interesting look.
 
Oh, I agree that the dragon helm will be distinctive enough that the audience will know it's Túrin, even if his face is obscured. My point is that the director isn't going to leave the actor's face obscured for any scenes involving emotion in any way ;).

So, Túrin may be involved in enough fight scenes that are ultimately irrelevant to give us screen time with the visor down, but I'm not comfortable designing the helmet with a fixed full-face covering, as I don't think that's very film-friendly.

I'm not a fan of the faceplate that flips up like a welder's mask. It's an unwieldy look (and will at least partially block the dragon). I do think that a visor that slides over the crest allowing the dragon head to peak out could be interesting (if maybe lower profile than some were expecting). And yes, there may be some way to design a slit for the crest so that the mask is still functional armor and not a 'stab here' slit. Probably will help if the helmet has a nose guard built in. The dragon would likely need to lift off the helm around the top of the head, leaning forward and head cantilevered out. That could be an interesting look.
Is this what you mean by the position of the Dragon crest?
2498
 
I don't mind a character wearing a helmet covering his face for a film or two, or more, even if it makes it harder to understand the character's feelings.
2500

Question: Do we have to see Turin's expressions that often - or is his apparent lack of emotion a quality we can use?
 
Is this what you mean by the position of the Dragon crest?
View attachment 2498

Yes, something like that, or like the image that opened this thread:

So the Dragon-Helm of Dor-Lomin is going to be forged at the end of Season 4, as a barbute topped with a version of Glaurung the dragon in gold. Anything else to add or subtract from the design?
View attachment 2487

The idea being that the visor sliding up can be solid (to a point) and the notch/slit only needs to accommodate the crest beginning at the highest point of the head. A crest that is attached all the way down to the noseguard would be more difficult to design around, though there is always the side option.

I think I prefer a pin to a hinge for moving parts, but really what I'm looking for is something that is sleek/compact/clearly designed to look good in any configuration. I don't want the 'open' version to look awkwardly poorly thought through, nor do I want the closed face mask to be non-aesthetic.

I know it should also be 'dwarvish' not elven, so I'm a little stuck on what about this helmet is going to be particularly dwarvish.
 
I don't mind a character wearing a helmet covering his face for a film or two, or more, even if it makes it harder to understand the character's feelings.
View attachment 2500

Question: Do we have to see Turin's expressions that often - or is his apparent lack of emotion a quality we can use?
I don't think Turin lacks emotion at all. He is certainly upset when terrible things happen in his life (which is most of the time). However, I don't think he will be wearing the Dragon-helm with the visor covering his face in any particularly emotional moments. He wears it when fighting alongside Beleg and potentially also at the battle of Tumhalad. The only emotional moments I think might happen while Turin is wearing the helmet would be conversations with Beleg and the death of Gwindor. I don't think either of these would happen in the thick of battle, so he could raise the visor for them.
 
Yes I would not suggest that Turin lacks emotion. I was suggesting that it isn't apparent what his emotions are, but that he could be hardening himself when at war, in battle. The helmet could help conveying that.
 
Yes, something like that, or like the image that opened this thread:



The idea being that the visor sliding up can be solid (to a point) and the notch/slit only needs to accommodate the crest beginning at the highest point of the head. A crest that is attached all the way down to the noseguard would be more difficult to design around, though there is always the side option.

I think I prefer a pin to a hinge for moving parts, but really what I'm looking for is something that is sleek/compact/clearly designed to look good in any configuration. I don't want the 'open' version to look awkwardly poorly thought through, nor do I want the closed face mask to be non-aesthetic.

I know it should also be 'dwarvish' not elven, so I'm a little stuck on what about this helmet is going to be particularly dwarvish.
What have we had for Dwarvish helmets so far?

I don't mind a character wearing a helmet covering his face for a film or two, or more, even if it makes it harder to understand the character's feelings.
View attachment 2500

Question: Do we have to see Turin's expressions that often - or is his apparent lack of emotion a quality we can use?
Well, for lack of emotion, Turin mostly has two emotions: brooding and anger, and sometimes brooding anger. And sometimes, we don't need dialogue to tell what someone's thinking, his lack of humor is part of his character.

There's also a practical concern with helmets, which happens to involve Darth Vader. Some of the lightsaber duels in the original trilogy were hard to do because David Prowse could barely see the person he was dueling. Even when master fencer Bob Anderson replaced Prowse for the lightsaber duels for The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, he had difficulty seeing out the lenses. Even masks cause this problem; when Lurtz (Lawrence Makoare) was fighting Aragorn in The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring, Makoare could barely see out of his mask and nearly hit Viggo Mortensen with a thrown knife.
 
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Yes, something like that, or like the image that opened this thread:



The idea being that the visor sliding up can be solid (to a point) and the notch/slit only needs to accommodate the crest beginning at the highest point of the head. A crest that is attached all the way down to the noseguard would be more difficult to design around, though there is always the side option.

I think I prefer a pin to a hinge for moving parts, but really what I'm looking for is something that is sleek/compact/clearly designed to look good in any configuration. I don't want the 'open' version to look awkwardly poorly thought through, nor do I want the closed face mask to be non-aesthetic.

I know it should also be 'dwarvish' not elven, so I'm a little stuck on what about this helmet is going to be particularly dwarvish.
Looking at the Thracian gladiator helmets that @Nicholas Palazzo mentioned, I like the round, almost insect-like eyes. It also hearkens back to my previous suggestion of a gas mask-like design. That doesn't strike me as a particularly Elvish aesthetic, so maybe round eyes could be characteristic of Dwarven masks.
gladiator-helm.jpg
wwi-british-gas-mask.jpg
 
I would also like to add that viewers project feelings of their own on to the characters on the screen. The situation presents clues for our imagination and we create fantasies about their psychology. Expressions aren't always necessary, not even most of the time. Let's use Darth Vader as an example again. When Vader sees Paplatine electrocuting Luke, the camera shows a closeup of his covered face. We know what happens, even though he expresses nothing.
 
I don't mind a character wearing a helmet covering his face for a film or two, or more, even if it makes it harder to understand the character's feelings.
View attachment 2500

Question: Do we have to see Turin's expressions that often - or is his apparent lack of emotion a quality we can use?

Well, the perpetually masked look is not uncommon for a villain. Vader, the Witch-king, Sauron, the Black Knight, Jason, Michael Myers, everyone in the Purge.... The idea being that you can hide a lot behind the mask, and no one will ever know what is going on with you - it's a mystery. 'Mystery' is a key component of V's character in V for Vendetta, so even though he's not technically a villain, he is benefiting from no one seeing his face. Same with Phantom of the Opera - if you take off the mask and see the scars/disfigurement, it changes your perception of the character.

It's harder to have a masked protagonist, which is why most of the time the mask is temporary. And certainly, regardless of design, Túrin will only wear the dragonhelm as a temporary thing - he'll take it off when he's not fighting. I do think it might be problematic to put Túrin in a great helm, even temporarily, though - it's very faceless. And adding a metal face might just make it creepy. I guess that makes me think 'executioner' - someone faceless whose emotions you aren't supposed to be thinking about, and whose actions feel inevitable. So, yeah, I'm shying away from the giant overturned bucket look pretty strongly!

Anime often has characters fighting each other in giant mechs. Obviously, the opponents cannot see one another -they're both inside cockpits. And yet, the audience is shown the faces of both characters, to see what's going on with them during the fight. I am not suggesting that actors can't act with a helmet on - clearly, they can. Body language says a lot. I am saying that if we want to be following our point-of-view character through the fight, completely obscuring his face for long stretches of time might not be something we want to commit to. So, yeah, give the director the option to have him lift a visor/open a faceplate and talk with his face unobscured.
 
Well, the perpetually masked look is not uncommon for a villain. Vader, the Witch-king, Sauron, the Black Knight, Jason, Michael Myers, everyone in the Purge.... The idea being that you can hide a lot behind the mask, and no one will ever know what is going on with you - it's a mystery. 'Mystery' is a key component of V's character in V for Vendetta, so even though he's not technically a villain, he is benefiting from no one seeing his face. Same with Phantom of the Opera - if you take off the mask and see the scars/disfigurement, it changes your perception of the character.

It's harder to have a masked protagonist, which is why most of the time the mask is temporary. And certainly, regardless of design, Túrin will only wear the dragonhelm as a temporary thing - he'll take it off when he's not fighting. I do think it might be problematic to put Túrin in a great helm, even temporarily, though - it's very faceless. And adding a metal face might just make it creepy. I guess that makes me think 'executioner' - someone faceless whose emotions you aren't supposed to be thinking about, and whose actions feel inevitable. So, yeah, I'm shying away from the giant overturned bucket look pretty strongly!
Well Turin is hardly a hero at times, is he? He's more of an anti-hero/tragic hero, and doesn't shy away from intimidating looks, his enemies are described as "fleeing before his face" whenever he wore the dwarf mask.
 
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