Weapon & Armor systems; Tactical Styles in Middle Earth

I think we figured out that phalanx and hoplite and roman legionaire style are the most likely styles,
the noldo are described to have swordmen, spearmen , archers and cavalry, the last probably bothlancers and mounted archers, it is also safe to assume they had different spear types, throwing spears and l8nger anti-cavalry/ anti -great beast (troll/demon) spears.

I think we have an in depth analysis and discussion 8f eoven weapons in some thread here...
 
Haerangil said:
I think we figured out that phalanx and hoplite and roman legionaire style are the most likely styles,
the noldo are described to have swordmen, spearmen , archers and cavalry, the last probably bothlancers and mounted archers, it is also safe to assume they had different spear types, throwing spears and l8nger anti-cavalry/ anti -great beast (troll/demon) spears.

I think we have an in depth analysis and discussion 8f eoven weapons in some thread here...
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Yes, I created this thread to kind of coagulate all of those discussions instead of discussing a bunch of stuff in a vacuum.

I think that we will get more diversification amongst elvish military units in the future, but I'm not sure we're there yet.
 
Probably not, i did like the video with legionaires vs phalanx...

I could imagine the feanorian warriors taking the part of the more agressive, creative legionairebstyle and the orcs that of the phalanx.
 
Haerangil said:
Probably not, i did like the video with legionaires vs phalanx...

I could imagine the feanorian warriors taking the part of the more agressive, creative legionairebstyle and the orcs that of the phalanx.
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The cohort and maniple systems of the Roman's are kind of a strange animal. They are one of the only heavy infantry units which depends heavily on the sword. The short sword, specifically, paired with an immense shield. The experience in warfare required to arrive at this combination cannot be understated.

Thus far, the Fëanoreans have depended on the phalanx model for their heavy infantry, a concept we arrived at under the conceit that Fëanor was wargaming up in Formenos, experimenting with different methods of warfare. The phalanx works well for this, because you can get there using only nonlethal force.

If we want to have groups using short swords, big shields, and javelins going forward, I think it could be done, but you're going to run into resistance having Elves using short swords.

The reason I would caution against having the Orcs using phalanx warfare is because of how effective phalanx's are at holding positions, especially against cavalry. Morgoth's stratagem seems to revolve around using overwhelming numbers of light infantry, supplemented by heavy units (trolls, balrogs, and dragons). The heavy units do the job of WWI tanks, breaking through enemy lines and causing chaos, which allows the light infantry to create multiple sets of flanks within the enemy formation.
 
The gladius became shorter in the imperial era, the early gladius wasn't that short actually...

The Orcs remind me of early celtic warriors, despite they use curved swords instead of straight ones, the celts also used a kind of phalanx, that's why i came to that idea... but of couse there's no historical model comparable to trolls... not even tanks because trolls are no artillery.
 
Haerangil said:
The gladius became shorter in the imperial era, the early gladius wasn't that short actually...

The Orcs remind me of early celtic warriors, despite they use curved swords instead of straight ones, the celts also used a kind of phalanx, that's why i came to that idea... but of couse there's no historical model comparable to trolls... not even tanks because trolls are no artillery.
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Ah. Ok, that clarification makes more sense. For me, when I think of phalanx, I think of the heavy infantry formations of the Greeks, moving relatively slowly across the battlefield, which doesn't seem super-Orcish.
 
Haerangil said:
The gladius became shorter in the imperial era, the early gladius wasn't that short actually...

The Orcs remind me of early celtic warriors, despite they use curved swords instead of straight ones, the celts also used a kind of phalanx, that's why i came to that idea... but of couse there's no historical model comparable to trolls... not even tanks because trolls are no artillery.
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Trolls can throw boulders, that could make them into artillery.

Also, not all Orcs have curved swords and not all Elves have straight swords; the Uruk-hai have straight swords and one of the most distinctive aspects about Egalmoth of Gondolin is his curved sword.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
Also, not all Orcs have curved swords and not all Elves have straight swords; the Uruk-hai have straight swords and one of the most distinctive aspects about Egalmoth of Gondolin is his curved sword.
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The fact that these things are called out the way they are suggest that they are unusual.

I'm less attached to Tolkien's adherence to the "bent blades=evil" thing than some, but there is plenty of textual evidence for it.
 
I guess jrrt just had tendencies and aestetics in mind when he decribed the weaponry and armor...

Elves =european antiquity, nobleness, beauty
orcs = late medieval or late asian armour and weapons, bizarre aesthetics, uglyness but functionality..

Personally that is nor MY opinion.But i guess that's his tendency, the way he went...
 
Curved swords were pretty effective as cavalry weapons. I don't think Orcs would be riding horses, but has there been any discussion of when and how frequently they ride Wargs/Werewolves? Perhaps earlier Orcs could have mainly been mounted troops who used curved swords, but as the number of Orcs swiftly exceeded the number of wolves, the Orcish foot soldiers kept the same sword design.
 
Rhiannon said:
Curved swords were pretty effective as cavalry weapons. I don't think Orcs would be riding horses, but has there been any discussion of when and how frequently they ride Wargs/Werewolves? Perhaps earlier Orcs could have mainly been mounted troops who used curved swords, but as the number of Orcs swiftly exceeded the number of wolves, the Orcish foot soldiers kept the same sword design.
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Curved swords have been pretty effective since well before cavalry was a thing. The khopesh, kois, falcata, dao and others were all in use before cavalry was prevalent or even feasible.

Curved blades are more forgiving in cuts, because their shape tends to want to rest blade down. They're generally easier to forge, because hammering out a bevel on a single-edged blade tends to curve it. More to come.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
Curved swords have been pretty effective since well before cavalry was a thing. The khopesh, kois, falcata, dao and others were all in use before cavalry was prevalent or even feasible.

Curved blades are more forgiving in cuts, because their shape tends to want to rest blade down. They're generally easier to forge, because hammering out a bevel on a single-edged blade tends to curve it. More to come.
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I've read that curved swords also tended to be preferred when combatants wore light armor that could be cut through easily, as opposed to mail. Perhaps the Orcs would have originally intended their swords for use against the Sindar, Nandor, and Falathrim, who wore little to no armor, then found them to be of less use against the Noldor with their superior armor.
 
Yes, sabers are less effective against heavy armour, yet they do work.Historical examples would be the sarracenes vs the crusaders or the ottomans against eastern european knights. Also the kossaks against western european soldiers...

I might add, all these armies relied heavily on cavalry, but not exclusively, especially the sarracenes and ottomans also had largely footsoldiers, but for example the ottomans also used axes and maces in close combat, we have indications for the orcs of Angband that they used these side-weapons as well...

Blunt weapons are very effective against mail.
 
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Rhiannon said:
I've read that curved swords also tended to be preferred when combatants wore light armor that could be cut through easily, as opposed to mail. Perhaps the Orcs would have originally intended their swords for use against the Sindar, Nandor, and Falathrim, who wore little to no armor, then found them to be of less use against the Noldor with their superior armor.
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To be honest, swords generally have limited usefulness against mail. You can't really cut through it, and even thrusting requires swords made specifically for that use.

 
Yes, heavier, broader sword types, falchions and messers are more effective..., yet still inferior to maces, warhammers, axes, etc.

Spears however can be very effective if used proper.
 
Haerangil said:
Yes, heavier, broader sword types, falchions and messers are more effective..., yet still inferior to maces, warhammers, axes, etc.

Spears however can be very effective if used proper.
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Well, one of the swords in the video is a longsword specifically designed for armor penetration. After mail became ubiquitous, swords got more narrow, generally speaking.
 
Haerangil said:
Yes, heavier, broader sword types, falchions and messers are more effective..., yet still inferior to maces, warhammers, axes, etc.

Spears however can be very effective if used proper.
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They do have to be used proper; using a spear quarterstaff style would not work well in a pitched battle, as what happens in Game of Thrones Season 7 Episode 2 when the spear-wielding Obara Sand goes up against Euron Greyjoy and she goes down easily.

 
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