Weapon & Armor systems; Tactical Styles in Middle Earth

I think it is safe to say that the Sand Snakes go down easily because the writers had determined it was time for their story to come to an end, rather than for any technical reason.
Is that what it was? I thought it was that their weapons were unsuited for that situation (Obara wasn't that good with the spear anyways since she was unable to take down a one-handed man). Oberyn always says "long sword is a bad option in close quarters" (and as we see, spear is worse).
 
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Is that what it was? I thought it was that their weapons were unsuited for that situation (Obara wasn’t that good with the spear anyways since she was unable to take down a one-handed man). Oberyn always says “long sword is a bad option in close quarters” (and as we see, spear is worse).

The whip and dual-wielded daggers are indeed awful weapon sets for a battle. The lack of armor is the bigger concern, though.
 
Yeah.. this is a picture from my local castle (the next one that ruled over the region just outside of my city in medieval times anyway) and they have some swords upstairs, but the the overwhelming majority of weapons are just loots of different kinds of halberds. This is just one side of the room, all the other walls are stuffed too.

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There is something about a sword. Went plumbing and found the documentary "Reclaiming the Blade", which discusses the cultural significance of the sword.


Obviously the sword is culturally important. And nearly all of our main characters will own and probably wield a sword. Very few of our characters are basic infantry soldiers though. They're kings and lords.

The case that is being made here is that polearms, the spear in particular, is the most common primary weapon for infantry.
 
True...
but even a lot of our champions wield spears too... i,mean, gil-galad, turin, tuor, beren, Thingol, Eol, Boldog, Daeron, Mablung,Celegorm, Aredhel, Eonwe, Fingon, Amras, Curufin, Hador, Galdor...

As has been said before, sword is a typical sidearm.
 
So where should it be discussed then?

This is probably a better place. I will say that I'm not sure what kind of place sport fencing would have in the context of armored fighters trying to kill each other. As most of our weapons and armor are of a European source, the martial arts used should be the ones best suited to them. Our Elvish characters might use flashier moves on occasion because of their greater strength and agility, but we should be basing fight choreography on martial arts designed for the weapons being used.
 
This is probably a better place. I will say that I'm not sure what kind of place sport fencing would have in the context of armored fighters trying to kill each other. As most of our weapons and armor are of a European source, the martial arts used should be the ones best suited to them. Our Elvish characters might use flashier moves on occasion because of their greater strength and agility, but we should be basing fight choreography on martial arts designed for the weapons being used.
While we certainly want our SilmFilm fights to look realistic, that would need to be balanced with the safety of the actors and cinematic appeal. Sport fencing is a fairly uncinematic sport. Once you get over the excitement of "Those people have swords!" it's very stop-and-go, and the time when blades are actually in contact is often only a few fractions of a second before a point is scored or one fencer disengages, which makes it hard to tell what is going on. Unless someone is intentionally trying to be dramatic or doesn't know what they're doing, it is not very flashy. Furthermore, sport fencing is primarily a linear sport, and only saber fencing even allows points to be scored with the edge of the blade. The swords in SilmFilm will be weapons with significant edges and used in the round unless a fight happens to take place in a narrow hallway or something.

There are, however, some conceptual elements that we could incorporate into duels that take place in SilmFilm. For example, even duels between enemies could have some unspoken sense of honor, such as a salute before engaging. I could also see some fights, like Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth, including a lot of lightning fast, in-and-out lunges.
 
While we certainly want our SilmFilm fights to look realistic, that would need to be balanced with the safety of the actors and cinematic appeal. Sport fencing is a fairly uncinematic sport. Once you get over the excitement of "Those people have swords!" it's very stop-and-go, and the time when blades are actually in contact is often only a few fractions of a second before a point is scored or one fencer disengages, which makes it hard to tell what is going on. Unless someone is intentionally trying to be dramatic or doesn't know what they're doing, it is not very flashy. Furthermore, sport fencing is primarily a linear sport, and only saber fencing even allows points to be scored with the edge of the blade. The swords in SilmFilm will be weapons with significant edges and used in the round unless a fight happens to take place in a narrow hallway or something.

There are, however, some conceptual elements that we could incorporate into duels that take place in SilmFilm. For example, even duels between enemies could have some unspoken sense of honor, such as a salute before engaging. I could also see some fights, like Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth, including a lot of lightning fast, in-and-out lunges.
I could see Tuor vs Maeglin on a narrow battlement, maybe not a ledge as shown in this artwork.

 
While we certainly want our SilmFilm fights to look realistic, that would need to be balanced with the safety of the actors and cinematic appeal. Sport fencing is a fairly uncinematic sport. Once you get over the excitement of "Those people have swords!" it's very stop-and-go, and the time when blades are actually in contact is often only a few fractions of a second before a point is scored or one fencer disengages, which makes it hard to tell what is going on. Unless someone is intentionally trying to be dramatic or doesn't know what they're doing, it is not very flashy. Furthermore, sport fencing is primarily a linear sport, and only saber fencing even allows points to be scored with the edge of the blade. The swords in SilmFilm will be weapons with significant edges and used in the round unless a fight happens to take place in a narrow hallway or something.

There are, however, some conceptual elements that we could incorporate into duels that take place in SilmFilm. For example, even duels between enemies could have some unspoken sense of honor, such as a salute before engaging. I could also see some fights, like Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth, including a lot of lightning fast, in-and-out lunges.
The reason why I wanted to start talking about it was that single combat is going to become more prevalent in the Silmarillion with one-on-one confrontations like: Fingolfin vs Morgoth, Thingol vs Boldog (if we adapt Boldog's assault on Doriath), Beren vs Gorgol (if we give the Orc-captain a name), Gothmog vs Fingon, Celegorm vs Dior (if we decide on that), Ecthelion vs Gothmog, Tuor vs Maeglin, and Glorfindel vs the Balrog. Two of those are going to be on narrow ground, Fingon will be all alone against Gothmog until another Balrog shows up, etc. Single combat is something that is prevalent in myth and story. Will expand on this when I get home and find my copy of Star Wars: The Magic of Myth.

Example of a duel to the death in a pitched battle
 
Certainly, duels are fun to watch, and some of the most dramatic moments in a story. Even in the novel format, it would be possible to argue that Eowyn's confrontation with the Witch-king is one of the most memorable moments in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. Not the only dramatic moment, of course, but still a moment that sticks in many people's memories after reading the scene, in a way that other moments from that battle may not.

There is a scale of martial arts sliding from sport to combat, with most models fitting firmly on the sport side. Even when used to deadly effect, some martial arts-style moves are more for executing prisoners who aren't fighting back rather than for actually fighting an opponent who is trying to kill you. It's a martial art, it's meant to train someone for combat, but that doesn't mean they can all realistically be used in a warfare situation.

We do have some tournament-style duels in Silm Film already. Fingolfin competes in Tirion, prior to the incident where Fëanor points a sword as his throat. The obvious background there is that Tulkas likes to train, and would certainly invite the elves to train too - and it's all in good fun until someone pulls a real weapon in anger. Similarly, there is a tournament at Himring in Season 4 Episode 4, where Fingolfin and Maedhros do duel one another for fun.

There are plenty of movies that have found ways to incorporate dramatic duels. All of the Star Wars films, The Princess Bride, the first two Narnia films, Pirates of the Caribbean, etc, etc, etc. Stage fighting is a thing for a reason.

And not all films go for 'realistic' in their depiction of fighting. Some go for 'cool and dramatic looking' without attempting much realism at all.
So, in the 2018 Robin Hood film, we get a weirdly steampunked quasi-medieval/quasi-industrial setting. And for the fight scenes, we get this:

Now, this archery style is clearly based on something very specific (and therefore 'real'):
May I introduce to you...Lars Andersen:

So, here's the deal - it's not 100% unrealistic that Taron Egerton's Robin Hood, a master archer, could pull off the stunts and trick shots depicted in the film. Firing four arrows in rapid succession or firing in two different directions as he falls through the air? Scavenging arrows on the run? Sure, why not. What becomes ridiculous is that these trick shots are successfully taking out armored opponents in a one man against a fortress scenario. Yes, arrows go through chain mail with any reasonable force behind them (chain mail is for stopping slicing, not stabbing). But we don't see him shoot at the gap where the eyes are - we see him shoot a guy dead in the center of his forehead through a helmet and skull. His enemies crossbows are powerful enough to do actual structural damage to the building they are in, but of course he can still run at the end. That's more in the 'oh, come on!' category.

I'm not suggesting that's the most egregious thing about this film (for that, I'd say the total absence of Sherwood Forest really angered me), or even this scene (the perfect timing needed to ignite the oil from a getaway cart driving perpendicular to the oil line really bothered me), but it's certainly a depiction of 'fantasy' fighting, in the sense that the audience is meant to be entertained, not assume anything that is happening is realistic.

The problem is...the more fantastical your setting, the more effort you have to put into realism to convince the audience that your story is real enough to invest in, or go the humor/slapstick route. Our characters are all (prior to Season 5), not human. Not a single human being on screen (outside of the Frame). Now granted, the elves are clearly our human-proxy-stand-ins. So that's fine. But...we really do have to be careful with any 'video game' fighting or stuff that seems low stakes and flashy. We have to make sure the audience is always at least a tiny bit concerned that the characters could die here. They're not superheroes and they shouldn't appear to have plot-based immunity.

So, can we have a flashy/'trick' swordsman? Eh, I'd rather not. Can we have duels during battles? I think there are several places in the story that call for it, but I think those scenes should be very tense. I want to make sure all of the choices made serve the story being told in that scene first, and a desire for 'cool' or 'flashy' moves is a secondary concern. The grim meeting between Gothmog and Fingon on the battlefield at the Unnumbered Tears ends with Gothmog cleaving his helmet in half and bursting his head open. That's raw power, not skill. It's not a duel between two roughly evenly matched opponents. It's someone outclassed fighting for his life against a fire demon...and losing.

I recognize that swordfighting on film involves a lot more twirls and spinning of the blade then would be realistic. I'm okay with some of that creeping in to keep the audience happy. But I don't want to plan whole fight sequences around some cutesy move, either.

Basically, I want nothing at all like this to appear at any point in our story:
Leaving aside some of the silly waving around of swords that is happening in this clip, the whole concept of an 'honorable duel' between enemies only works if your enemy is not an evil creature. You can't do this between an elf and orc! And in our story, there are very few cases where elves kill one another (well, okay, there's 4 kinslayings and the death of Aredhel and Eöl). But at no point could someone send a message to the Sons of Fëanor saying 'if you can't defeat our champion in a duel, then give up your claim to the silmaril!' That...isn't an option. There just isn't a place for 'let's settle this with a duel to the death' outside of Fingolfin's challenge to Morgoth, and that...shouldn't feel like this in any way. There, all Fingolfin is asking for in the duel...is the opportunity to kill Morgoth. The stakes aren't in exchange for anything else - this is after the battle, and he's not expecting to walk away alive.

So, yes, I've been told the sword-fighting in the film that clip is from is more or less historically accurate for the Polish saber, and a fencing society was involved in the production. I'm not complaining about the sword fight...I'm complaining about the entire context of the sword fight.
 
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What I am saying is that a sword fight, a duel, is a story. You add all the details in to convey the particular story you want to tell.

Sample #1: An injured blind man (and expert swordsman) attempts to prevent a samurai from executing a man in front of his family. First, he pleads the case humbly, how the man wasn't really involved in the crime. Then, the man's wife begs for mercy. Finally, the man surrenders himself to protect the lives of his wife and child. Only then does the blind man change this to a physical fight, challenging the might of the samurai.
The fighting is a bit stylized (especially on the side of the samurai), and there are some surprising moves and turns in the fight. But the point was never what fancy things either man could do with a sword. The point was always....can he, though outmatched, keep this family safe? Can he earn the respect of his opponent? The snow helps to tell that story, and is a lovely touch.

Sample #2: Two expert swordsmen discuss their craft while dueling
This is a light-hearted fight scene. Obviously, the entire movie is a comedy, but immediately before this, we hear the backstory of how Inigo's father was killed, and his lifelong search for the six-fingered man. There are only a handful of scenes that are completely serious with no jokes, quips, or asides, and that is one of them. And yet....we get this conversation when the men duel. There is tension here, and surprises, don't get me wrong - it's a very exciting scene. But it's not a serious scene. It's funny, and the choreography does a perfect job of conveying that humor, the mutual respect these characters have for one another, and how much fun it is to take on a worthy opponent. This is all about 'friendship through fighting,' even though it is (ostensibly) a duel to the death.

Sample #3: The sword fight that wasn't
Kill Bill has many fight scenes, often with swords. It's Quentin Tarantino, so it's violent and gory throughout. And the general story is a revenge plot. This fight in Budd's trailer is no exception. Here, both women are portrayed as roughly evenly matched in a physical fight. There's a lot of cinematography portraying them as mirrors of one another. However, as the scene progresses, we see a difference in the characters emerge more and more clearly. In the end, there is no sword fight between them. They do cross blades, but that is not how it ends. And that 'I'm not going to dignify you with a clean death' attitude was very important and clearly was behind the choice to put this in the confined space of a messy, cheaply constructed, trailer. There is, more famously, the scene where Indiana Jones just shoots the guy who is waving his fancy sword around. That is similar to this situation, but much less personal/revenge oriented, and more 'I can't be bothered with this.'

Will we have scenes where two characters fight each other one-on-one? Yes, definitely, that will happen. Will that be the common situation in a battle sequence? No. And will there be stylized 'duels' like you might see in the 1700's and 1800's? No. That's not the sort of culture this is. There will be no 'meet at x place at dawn and bring your second' kind of scenes, no duels fought in proxy of settling some other dispute.
 
Certainly, duels are fun to watch, and some of the most dramatic moments in a story. Even in the novel format, it would be possible to argue that Eowyn's confrontation with the Witch-king is one of the most memorable moments in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. Not the only dramatic moment, of course, but still a moment that sticks in many people's memories after reading the scene, in a way that other moments from that battle may not.

There is a scale of martial arts sliding from sport to combat, with most models fitting firmly on the sport side. Even when used to deadly effect, some martial arts-style moves are more for executing prisoners who aren't fighting back rather than for actually fighting an opponent who is trying to kill you. It's a martial art, it's meant to train someone for combat, but that doesn't mean they can all realistically be used in a warfare situation.

We do have some tournament-style duels in Silm Film already. Fingolfin competes in Tirion, prior to the incident where Fëanor points a sword as his throat. The obvious background there is that Tulkas likes to train, and would certainly invite the elves to train too - and it's all in good fun until someone pulls a real weapon in anger. Similarly, there is a tournament at Himring in Season 4 Episode 4, where Fingolfin and Maedhros do duel one another for fun.

There are plenty of movies that have found ways to incorporate dramatic duels. All of the Star Wars films, The Princess Bride, the first two Narnia films, Pirates of the Caribbean, etc, etc, etc. Stage fighting is a thing for a reason.

And not all films go for 'realistic' in their depiction of fighting. Some go for 'cool and dramatic looking' without attempting much realism at all.
So, in the 2018 Robin Hood film, we get a weirdly steampunked quasi-medieval/quasi-industrial setting. And for the fight scenes, we get this:

Now, this archery style is clearly based on something very specific (and therefore 'real'):
May I introduce to you...Lars Andersen:

So, here's the deal - it's not 100% unrealistic that Taron Egerton's Robin Hood, a master archer, could pull off the stunts and trick shots depicted in the film. Firing four arrows in rapid succession or firing in two different directions as he falls through the air? Scavenging arrows on the run? Sure, why not. What becomes ridiculous is that these trick shots are successfully taking out armored opponents in a one man against a fortress scenario. Yes, arrows go through chain mail with any reasonable force behind them (chain mail is for stopping slicing, not stabbing). But we don't see him shoot at the gap where the eyes are - we see him shoot a guy dead in the center of his forehead through a helmet and skull. His enemies crossbows are powerful enough to do actual structural damage to the building they are in, but of course he can still run at the end. That's more in the 'oh, come on!' category.

I'm not suggesting that's the most egregious thing about this film (for that, I'd say the total absence of Sherwood Forest really angered me), or even this scene (the perfect timing needed to ignite the oil from a getaway cart driving perpendicular to the oil line really bothered me), but it's certainly a depiction of 'fantasy' fighting, in the sense that the audience is meant to be entertained, not assume anything that is happening is realistic.

The problem is...the more fantastical your setting, the more effort you have to put into realism to convince the audience that your story is real enough to invest in, or go the humor/slapstick route. Our characters are all (prior to Season 5), not human. Not a single human being on screen (outside of the Frame). Now granted, the elves are clearly our human-proxy-stand-ins. So that's fine. But...we really do have to be careful with any 'video game' fighting or stuff that seems low stakes and flashy. We have to make sure the audience is always at least a tiny bit concerned that the characters could die here. They're not superheroes and they shouldn't appear to have plot-based immunity.

So, can we have a flashy/'trick' swordsman? Eh, I'd rather not. Can we have duels during battles? I think there are several places in the story that call for it, but I think those scenes should be very tense. I want to make sure all of the choices made serve the story being told in that scene first, and a desire for 'cool' or 'flashy' moves is a secondary concern. The grim meeting between Gothmog and Fingon on the battlefield at the Unnumbered Tears ends with Gothmog cleaving his helmet in half and bursting his head open. That's raw power, not skill. It's not a duel between two roughly evenly matched opponents. It's someone outclassed fighting for his life against a fire demon...and losing.

I recognize that swordfighting on film involves a lot more twirls and spinning of the blade then would be realistic. I'm okay with some of that creeping in to keep the audience happy. But I don't want to plan whole fight sequences around some cutesy move, either.

Basically, I want nothing at all like this to appear at any point in our story:
Leaving aside some of the silly waving around of swords that is happening in this clip, the whole concept of an 'honorable duel' between enemies only works if your enemy is not an evil creature. You can't do this between an elf and orc! And in our story, there are very few cases where elves kill one another (well, okay, there's 4 kinslayings and the death of Aredhel and Eöl). But at no point could someone send a message to the Sons of Fëanor saying 'if you can't defeat our champion in a duel, then give up your claim to the silmaril!' That...isn't an option. There just isn't a place for 'let's settle this with a duel to the death' outside of Fingolfin's challenge to Morgoth, and that...shouldn't feel like this in any way. There, all Fingolfin is asking for in the duel...is the opportunity to kill Morgoth. The stakes aren't in exchange for anything else - this is after the battle, and he's not expecting to walk away alive.

So, yes, I've been told the sword-fighting in the film that clip is from is more or less historically accurate for the Polish saber, and a fencing society was involved in the production. I'm not complaining about the sword fight...I'm complaining about the entire context of the sword fight.

Right, and most of the fighting that we have is done in battles, which... isn't an excellent place for a duel. Can two main characters run into each other on the field and engage in combat, sure... But ... you have to engineer circumstances in which said fight is not interfered with. For example, Eowyn's fight with the Witch-King actually takes place behind the lines of the Rohirrim. They're busy fighting mumakil at the time and the Witch-King has successfully slaughtered or driven off Theoden's bodyguard. The chances that two enemy leaders would A) find each other in the thick of the fighting, and B) fight undisturbed for several minutes are pretty low.
 
Sample #4: A legal duel
Here, the duel is following legal requirements and is being observed by authorities. It is considered (in the context of this film) a honorable and fair way to settle a dispute. The wronged party here is not a skilled swordsman, and the man who accepted his challenge is quite confident he's going to kill him. So, the story here is that an over-confident man is challenged by an angry but not overly skilled swordsman. The tension is on how the underdog is going to survive this fight, or have any hope of attacking his opponent successfully. The move used to do so is foreshadowed earlier in the film and even earlier in the fight, so it that sense, the choreography is very much intended to tell the story, dragging it out, showing each wound building up to the end, making the room seem too big. But I don't think anyone would claim that that's actually a good way to intentionally approach a sword fight.

Sample #5: A battlefield duel
Arya Stark takes out the Night King in the Battle of Winterfell. Their interaction lasts approximately....10 seconds. It consists of an attack, a counterattack by her opponent, and a second attack in which she does not change position. The Night King's bodyguard does not intervene because they are unaware of the threat on their lord until it is too late -this was a sneak attack while he was slowly taking out Bran (for some reason).

Sample #6: A pirate wedding
This fight scene is not to be taken seriously in any way. It is blending the limits of choreography-as-dance applied to what would otherwise be a rather brutal ship boarding scene. The setting, choreography, soundtrack and dialogue all work together to lend the scene the fun and exhilaration of the culmination of a three movie love story, rather than the gritty realism of a battle at sea. Only the color scheme and rain give the veneer of the battle. It's a great scene....but it's not a serious battle sequence.
 
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In the case of Fingon, I thought Gothmog needed assistance to win the fight because he's described as fighting until another Balrog shows up and ties him up in its whip.

So am I wrong to suggest single combat in our conflicts?
 
In the case of Fingon, I thought Gothmog needed assistance to win the fight because he's described as fighting until another Balrog shows up and ties him up in its whip.

So am I wrong to suggest single combat in our conflicts?
I think there are instances where it could happen, but we should not go out of our way to contrive ways to bring main characters together for single combat.
 
In the case of Fingon, I thought Gothmog needed assistance to win the fight because he's described as fighting until another Balrog shows up and ties him up in its whip.

So am I wrong to suggest single combat in our conflicts?
If you are interested in choreographing a fight, perhaps you could try one of the duels from Season 2 or Season 4.
 
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