Session 5-03: Season Outline

I realize that Fingolfin isn't getting weekly updates or anything. I just figured the death of his daughter would be the type of news that might get passed along. And, well...we need to see Fingolfin's reaction to Aredhel's story. Thorondor is going to report Fingolfin's death to Turgon, so...it seemed the type of thing that would seem plausible, since Thorondor could do that without revealing anything about Gondolin's whereabouts.


As I see it, these early discussions are more about what to include and what not to include, rather than a definitive commentary on the importance of each storyline in the overall season.

So, sure, in Session 1 we talked a bit about Hador, and in Sessions 2 and 3 more about Andreth. Hador and Andreth are both in and both important and we'll bring them both up later.

What I am taking away from these conversations are mental lists like the following:

In
Death of Tevildo - by Haleth
the Athrabeth conversation between Finrod and Andreth (not just the romance between young Andreth and Aegnor)
a vision for Fingolfin

Out
the Druedain
Húrin and Huor in Gondolin
the full family tree of the Houses of Men - some pruning is expected of us


Etc.
Etc.
 
So then why would Fingolfin be informed of Aredhel’s death by Thorondor as suggested by @MithLuin?
Because Aredhel is Fingolfin's daughter, and that outweighs the need for secrecy.

If we don't want Thorondor to deliver the news, perhaps Fingolfin and Fingon could just know that Aredhel is dead. We've shown premonitions and telepathy before, so I don't think it would be too far-fetched that they would have some kind of psychic link.
 
Question about Finrod: if he realizes that the Siege will not last, why is he complacent when Fingolfin calls for an assault on Angband in the years proceeding the Dagor Bragollach? Not as strange as Maedhros not supporting Fingolfin given his mindset, but odd nonetheless.
 
Question about Finrod: if he realizes that the Siege will not last, why is he complacent when Fingolfin calls for an assault on Angband in the years proceeding the Dagor Bragollach? Not as strange as Maedhros not supporting Fingolfin given his mindset, but odd nonetheless.

Perhaps an reluctance to spend the lives of their new allies? When Men die, they're dead-dead (in Ea at least). He may even have to remind Fingolfin on some level that their lives ... ahem ... matter.

There are also strategic considerations. If Maedhros doesn't want to do it, that suggests that they aren't ready. Finrod can foresee this, but Maedhros can break down the math.
 
Question about Finrod: if he realizes that the Siege will not last, why is he complacent when Fingolfin calls for an assault on Angband in the years proceeding the Dagor Bragollach? Not as strange as Maedhros not supporting Fingolfin given his mindset, but odd nonetheless.
If peace is going to be temporary anyway, why make it shorter than it already is?

Finrod also, to some extent, foresees at least his own and Aegnor’s deaths. Since he knows an assault against Morgoth would not succeed and likely bring this about, he may wish to postpone it as long as possible. Plus, Nargothrond is supposed to be a secret realm like Gondolin. They’re willing to help out if Morgoth attacks, but marching out to open battle defeats the point of trying to hide and preserve themselves.
 
I wonder, if we're having Rhogrin escape this season how does he get to Gondolin if Gondolin already is closed?

Turgon will bring Gondolin's army to the Nirnaeth. Rhogrin (and some other of Fingon's people) will retreat back to Gondolin with him in the aftermath. Rhogrin's new House in Gondolin will (essentially) be made up of refugees from Mithrim.
 
Two things.
1: I think none of the leaders of Noldor think of an attack against Angband in terms of success. I mean, they all realise that the chances of success are slim, or close to zero. The fortress of the Enemy is impenetrable. They have to either force the Enemy to come out in the open and beat them there, or wait for them to attack and win, and then try to make Morgoth enter battle and hope to beat him. The longer they wait, both sides will build up strength. Nobody knows when the time is right. In the end, it’s going to be a gamble. The leaders will probably change their minds over time about what to do.
2: Why are the Druedain out??
 
I realize that Fingolfin isn't getting weekly updates or anything. I just figured the death of his daughter would be the type of news that might get passed along. And, well...we need to see Fingolfin's reaction to Aredhel's story. Thorondor is going to report Fingolfin's death to Turgon, so...it seemed the type of thing that would seem plausible, since Thorondor could do that without revealing anything about Gondolin's whereabouts.


As I see it, these early discussions are more about what to include and what not to include, rather than a definitive commentary on the importance of each storyline in the overall season.

So, sure, in Session 1 we talked a bit about Hador, and in Sessions 2 and 3 more about Andreth. Hador and Andreth are both in and both important and we'll bring them both up later.

What I am taking away from these conversations are mental lists like the following:

In
Death of Tevildo - by Haleth
the Athrabeth conversation between Finrod and Andreth (not just the romance between young Andreth and Aegnor)
a vision for Fingolfin

Out
the Druedain
Húrin and Huor in Gondolin
the full family tree of the Houses of Men - some pruning is expected of us


Etc.
Etc.
I'm still not on board with cutting out large portions of the Houses of Men because we'll find plot holes down the line. For example:
If Amlach is a contemporary of Bëor, is he going to be 100 years old+ by the time of the Council and the Fake Amlach incident? If Bregolas is adapted out, who's the father of Baragund and Belegund?

I've suggested mentioning them, but the Professor doesn't even want to do that.

There's a whole trope dedicated to this sort of thing occuring in adaptations.
 
I'm still not on board with cutting out large portions of the Houses of Men because we'll find plot holes down the line. For example:
If Amlach is a contemporary of Bëor, is he going to be 100 years old+ by the time of the Council and the Fake Amlach incident? If Bregolas is adapted out, who's the father of Baragund and Belegund?

I've suggested mentioning them, but the Professor doesn't even want to do that.

There's a whole trope dedicated to this sort of thing occuring in adaptations.

Amlach need not be 100 years old by the time of the Council even if he's alive during Beor's lifetime. The council takes place 14 years after Beor's death, assuming we don't move it to an earlier point. This is not a plot hole. As to the lineage of Rian and Morwen, we will not have difficulty linking them back into the family tree. If, of course, we decide to do so. While it's cool to know how everyone is related, I'm not sure that much is lost by not knowing the names of every ancestor of the mothers of Tuor and Turin all the way back to Beor. These aren't plot holes.
 
Amlach need not be 100 years old by the time of the Council even if he's alive during Beor's lifetime. The council takes place 14 years after Beor's death, assuming we don't move it to an earlier point. This is not a plot hole. As to the lineage of Rian and Morwen, we will not have difficulty linking them back into the family tree. If, of course, we decide to do so. While it's cool to know how everyone is related, I'm not sure that much is lost by not knowing the names of every ancestor of the mothers of Tuor and Turin all the way back to Beor. These aren't plot holes.
I don’t think anyone who is arguing for keeping the structure of the genealogy as it is in the book is suggesting that viewers need to know the names of everyone in it. We are perfectly capable of conveying that someone is a descendant of someone else without listing all their forefathers.

What exactly do we gain from compressing the timeline and cutting up the genealogies?
 
I don’t think anyone who is arguing for keeping the structure of the genealogy as it is in the book is suggesting that viewers need to know the names of everyone in it. We are perfectly capable of conveying that someone is a descendant of someone else without listing all their forefathers.

What exactly do we gain from compressing the timeline and cutting up the genealogies?

Because there are characters in this season whose stories are weakened if the audience is confused about their lineage. And those connections must be made onscreen by interactions between the characters rather than just a passing mention (or by contriving ways to repeatedly remind the audience who is related to whom) in order to preserve their power.
 
Because there are characters in this season whose stories are weakened if the audience is confused about their lineage. And those connections must be made onscreen by interactions between the characters rather than just a passing mention (or by contriving ways to repeatedly remind the audience who is related to whom) in order to preserve their power.
With which characters would this be a problem? What do you suggest as the revised lineage that would allow us to connect these characters?
 
Should we talk about and try to develop some storylines for the next session? It did seem like Corey wanted to look more on each storyline before trying to put together an outline.
 
Should we talk about and try to develop some storylines for the next session? It did seem like Corey wanted to look more on each storyline before trying to put together an outline.
I have my own ideas.
For a villain's storyline: Sauron is continuing his "Catch and Release" program. He puts Annael under his spell. The next project for Sauron is sowing discord between Elves and Men; to this end he'll put some captive Elves under his spell (or maybe take the form of a generic dark-haired Elf); he'll lure, kidnap and kill those from the House of Hador, with these Elves left behind as scapegoats. If the Hosts want Amlach to dither, this could be a reason why as, on the surface, Elves would be making Men disappear. He'll slip up when he impersonates Amlach when the Council of 368 F.A. occurs and Amlach affirms his support for the Elves.
 
Should we talk about and try to develop some storylines for the next session? It did seem like Corey wanted to look more on each storyline before trying to put together an outline.
We will likely devote multiple sessions to discussing various storylines, and then come up with a season outline at the end of that.

The next session will be devoted to choosing the Frame for season 5.
 
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