Session 5-06: The Storylines of Men, Part 2 - Bëor, Amlach, and (possibly) Hador

[MithLuin]

Well, yes. Going into this season, we 'knew' up front that we wanted Episode 1 to focus on the meeting of Bëor and Finrod (from Bëor's perspective), and that Episode 13 would focus on the duel of Fingolfin and Morgoth. So, yes, I do see the primary A plot of Episode 1 being Bëor and Finrod, no question! My question is...do we introduce any of the Men with Bëor at that time? Having a B plot with Fingolfin or something is fine, but I think we do need to focus on Bëor as the 'Let's introduce Men now!' character.

So, I will ask the question this way - what humans do we want Bëor to interact with? We know that he interacts with Finrod, who will be everywhere this season. But among his own people, who is he talking to? Not just in Episode 1, but in all his scenes until his death.

The reason this matters is because if we say 'his son Baran', then Baran is no longer a silent generation, but a minor character appearing in our story. The audience sees the dynamic between Bëor and Baran, and gets to know them. There can be value to that, certainly...but then Bëor and Baran both get old, and we are now introducing a later generation Boromir and Bereg, who didn't have any meaningful interaction with Bëor. Sure, we can say that they were very close to their grandfather Baran, and thus tied in that way...but that's my point, here - now they aren't interacting with Bëor, they're interacting with Baran.

So if we cut Bregolas, who's the father of his sons Baragund and Belegund (and by extension Morwen and Rian’s grandfather)?

Bregor, who is meant to be the father of Bregolas and Barahir, now becomes the father of Baragund and Belegund and the older brother of Andreth and Barahir. One generation is excised at that point, so we don't need to introduce both Bregor and Bregolas, but allow a single character to cover that story.

I guess I'm not demanding adherence to the holy texts, so much as still not really seeing the prize of diverging. The default is to stick to the text, and then if there's a reason we go our own way. Absolutely agreed, enthusiastically agreed. I just still am not seeing a prize here for divergence.

There are two 'prizes.' One, is that the characters we introduce get to stick around and do more on screen if we aren't perforce aging them out of the story instantly. We have 13 episodes to work with. We can put timeskips all over the place, no issue. But...if we stick with the text 'as written,' Bëor dies in 355 (100 years before the Dagor Bragollach), and Hador doesn't reach adulthood until 410 (45 years before the battle). I hear you when you say, why not just let Bëor live a little longer, and have Hador born a little earlier? Having both of those characters reach towards the middle of the season's timeline feels like a good modification. The other advantage is that the story becomes more clearly about family relationships. The relationship between Andreth and her dad Boromir is going to be pretty significant this season. The relationship between Bëor and his great-grandson Boromir...will simply not be. Sure, we can name drop them, and make sure Boromir goes to the funeral. But...if we want any more than that, we do need some time compression.

My comparison to the Old Testament wasn't simply a 'begats' situation. It was that, in a list of people, you typically only learn one thing about each guy. There are stories that fill things out more, but if you're quickly recounting the story of the House of Bëor, it looks like this:

Bëor meets Finrod, becomes his vassal, and moves to Nargothrond
Baran moves the people to Dorthonion
Boromir removes them to Ladros
Barahir saves Finrod and gets a ring; also Dorthonion is on fire.

Each guy has a single 'instant' in the story, and they don't connect to one another. How does Bëor feel about his people moving to Dorthonion? Or to deciding to live apart in Ladros? What did Boromir think of Bëor's decision to serve Finrod in the first place? There's a lot of questions, but not much in the way of clearing up answers. They're too separated from one another.

To be clear, I am not suggesting excising 100 years or 80 years or 75 years from the timeline. I'm suggesting shifting Bëor's initial meeting with Finrod 50 years later, and then making some minor adjustments to a generation here or there - combining Bregor and Bregolas into a single person, and eliminating either Haldan or Halmir from the family tree so we have Haleth's nephew be the father of Haldir and Hareth.

And yes, I completely agree that words like 'greatson' or 'longfather' will need to show up in the Men's vocabulary after they meet Elves - they are going to need a way to convey their relatives to people who might have known their great-grandfather, etc. We will be using perspective like this to link Bëor and Barahir, who will under no circumstances be contemporaries, and their only 'link' will be friendship with Finrod in the first and final episodes. But, most importantly - this will happen when Elves and Men interact, *not* when Men are talking amongst themselves.

There will be plenty of scenes and likely episodes in this season that will be Elf-perspective. But not all. We know we want to see the meeting of Bëor and Finrod from Bëor's point of view. Haleth will be a human point of view story with elves (Caranthir, Beleg, possibly Finrod) entering into it. The Council will also be Men-centric, with possibly no Elves appearing at all. The Council is going to be very difficult to tie into anything else in this season, actually. It only interacts with the Villain plot. Aredhel's story will be the only Elf-centric storyline with no Men appearing at all.

We are, however, still on an Elven timescale. A lot of time will pass this season; in later seasons, much less time will pass. I don't think any single human characters will appear in more than 4 episodes this season no matter how old they are - which is one reason why it is very, very important that none of these characters remain isolated, but manage to 'hand off' their stories.

 

[Rhiannon]

So it seems to me that there is a larger issue underlying the alteration of the timelines: how do we want to convey the difference in the passage of time for Men and Elves?

There are two extremes:

1. Men are like mayflies to Elves. They are born, grow old, and die in what seems to Elves an impossibly short amount of time. We convey this by showing Elves interacting with specific Men of different generations and imply that unseen generations have passed in between. The difference is shown primarily through the Elvish perspective; Men come and go so fast that the Elves hardly have a chance to get to know them, and we want viewers to feel the same as the Elves.

2. There are only a few Men, but we get to know every one of them very well. Every Man gets several episodes, and, before a character dies, he/she gets several scenes to establish his/her relationship with the next character we are going to focus on. The difference is shown primarily through Men aging onscreen and Elves not aging.

Ultimately, what we do should fall somewhere between these. The fact that the stories we want to tell for our main character Men will require more than one episode makes the first extreme impossible; the need to have some generations born in Beleriand, include enough time for our Elvish stories, and preserve the genealogies of later characters like Turin and Tuor makes the second extreme impossible.

Regardless of whether we keep the published genealogy or revise it, we will be leaning much more towards the second extreme as soon as we get to Amlach. The "throughline between characters" that @Nicholas Palazzo is concerned about is present. The relationships aren't always parent and child; they might be mentor and student or aunt and nephew, but they are always close enough that there will be a meaningful connection between one character and the next. Just look at the first post I made in this thread and keep in mind that Amlach, Haleth, and Boromir are contemporaries. As long as we don't do something ridiculous like waiting until Episode 7 for the death of Beor, the majority of the season will be told this way. Unless it is somehow important to our story that Andreth be Barahir's sister rather than his aunt, I see no reason at all to touch the genealogy below Amlach.

The problem comes in with the generations between Beor and Boromir and between [unnamed House of Hador chieftain who interacts with the Green-elves (aka Marach)] and Amlach. We could certainly show a throughline here, but the younger characters would be very young and the older characters would be very old. So, rather than seeing this gap as a problem with maintaining a throughline, why don't we look at it as an opportunity to lean towards the first extreme in conveying the passage of time? Yes, having Beor's death only three or four episodes into the season will be jarring to the Elves and to viewers, but that will be the point, and the entire rest of the season wouldn't be like that.

 

[MithLuin]

So, to bring this conversation back on track for next week's session...what do we want Bëor's story to be?

I think the early part of his story is clear: He leads his people over the mountains into the West, in search of Powers of Light that he has heard rumor of. He meets Finrod, and learns that, awww, Elves aren't Valar. But, hey, Elves are pretty cool! He's very enamored of them, and immediately signs himself up to be Finrod's vassal. Finrod just has that effect on folks.

So then what happens?

Easy enough for Bëor to become a tag-along with Finrod for the first part of the Season. Any story that has Finrod, oh look, there's Bëor! Except...the main thing Finrod is going to do at this time is - consult with Thingol concerning Men. In Doriath. I don't think we're going to want to drag Thingol out of Doriath for that, so perforce Bëor can't be on screen for that meeting. He can interact with Finrod in the prep or aftermath, of course, but he's not going to get to meet Thingol.

The next thing that has to happen is that the House of Bëor move to Dorthonion. I would like for that to happen in Bëor's lifetime, and have him be active in that decision. He is bringing his people to live amongst the Elves, which is very...on brand for Bëor. We can see some early cracks/misgivings concerning the Valinor impulse, but over all this should still be a hopeful/positive move.

While we could potentially involve Bëor in some military action (whether Pass of Aglon or something else), the impulse seems to be to save that for Hador's story and Haleth's story and keep Bëor's life peaceful. Which, fair enough. So, it's a possibility, but hardly necessary that we do something like this.

And then...Bëor grows old. He passes on his leadership to his heir. He says his farewells. Finrod is heartbroken that Bëor is dying so soon, while all the Men are extolling the long life Bëor lived and how they were all lucky to have him with them so long. That stark contrast in viewpoints will need to be made explicit for the audience.

So, a story like this would make Bëor a central character in 2 episodes (his death and his entrance!), an important, albeit B-or-C plot character in the episode where his people move to Dorthonion, and a minor supporting character in a more Finrod-centric episode. I think that's about the right 'size' for Bëor's story. We could add a little bit more..but not TOO much more. Most importantly, it gives us time to show how much he loves and cares about the elves, and why he thinks living among them is so great.

What types of conversations would Bëor have? I think we'll definitely want scenes among his Men when they cross into Beleriand, but before they meet elves. He has to express his hope, and articulate why he thinks Beleriand is the promised land and what he thinks they'll find there. Why he thinks this journey will be worth it. Who can he say these things to? Obviously, some random dude in his band is always a possibility. But what if....his son Belen was killed in some tragic incident while they were crossing the mountains? Bëor could be taking care of his son's widow and baby. This would make Bëor look like an upstanding, honorable guy...and would give us a reason for Bereg to both follow Bëor around and think of him as his father, even though he's actually his grandfather. And this would mean that when Bëor is making decisions (follow Finrod, move to Dorthonion), these decisions directly impact his daughter-in-law, and he could talk to her about them.

Bëor is meant to die at the age of 93. Most men would have passed on their day-to-day responsibilities by then, so even if they are working and keeping the leadership title, they are definitely less hands-on than they were. What if Bëor, in choosing his son, has made Boromir the defacto heir, while Bereg is...not. This could foster some resentment, giving Bereg a reason to think as he does before the council. Telling the story of Bereg and Boromir could be an important part of the episode where Bëor dies. Passing the story baton....

 

[Haakon]

I love the idea that Bëor's story is a bromance with Finrod, with scenes of them singing and talking, doing all kinds of nice stuff, he moves to Dorthonion, and then all of a sudden - he's old and dies.

 

[Rhiannon]

So, to bring this conversation back on track for next week's session...what do we want Bëor's story to be?

I think the early part of his story is clear: He leads his people over the mountains into the West, in search of Powers of Light that he has heard rumor of. He meets Finrod, and learns that, awww, Elves aren't Valar. But, hey, Elves are pretty cool! He's very enamored of them, and immediately signs himself up to be Finrod's vassal. Finrod just has that effect on folks.

So then what happens?

Easy enough for Bëor to become a tag-along with Finrod for the first part of the Season. Any story that has Finrod, oh look, there's Bëor! Except...the main thing Finrod is going to do at this time is - consult with Thingol concerning Men. In Doriath. I don't think we're going to want to drag Thingol out of Doriath for that, so perforce Bëor can't be on screen for that meeting. He can interact with Finrod in the prep or aftermath, of course, but he's not going to get to meet Thingol.

The next thing that has to happen is that the House of Bëor move to Dorthonion. I would like for that to happen in Bëor's lifetime, and have him be active in that decision. He is bringing his people to live amongst the Elves, which is very...on brand for Bëor. We can see some early cracks/misgivings concerning the Valinor impulse, but over all this should still be a hopeful/positive move.

I think it might be a good idea for the House of Beor's move to Dorthonion to take place in Episode 1 and that episode to end with Beor asking to be Finrod's vassal and go to Nargothrond with him. This would mean stopping by Estolad and leaving a good number of Beor's people behind there sometime in the middle of the episode, which I think would be the place to highlight misgivings about the Valinor impulse.

While we could potentially involve Bëor in some military action (whether Pass of Aglon or something else), the impulse seems to be to save that for Hador's story and Haleth's story and keep Bëor's life peaceful. Which, fair enough. So, it's a possibility, but hardly necessary that we do something like this.

I understand the impulse to have Beor do something to prove that Men are going to be worthwhile military allies against Morgoth, but I think having him involved in a battle is the wrong way to go. What if we instead have Men "prove themselves" in a tournament?

I see several advantages to this. First, it offers a chance to show fighting that doesn't contradict the notion of the Long Peace. In fact, it emphasizes the peacefulness because the Elves would be holding this tournament just for fun. Second, it can showcase the differences between Men and Elves. Men probably lose fights to Elves almost all the time, but they would still be impressive enough for the Elves to take note. Third, it's an excuse to get a bunch of characters together. Even if the tournament is held in Dorthonion, Fingolfin and Maedhros and whoever else we want could attend, which would give us a chance to show their reactions to Men.

And then...Bëor grows old. He passes on his leadership to his heir. He says his farewells. Finrod is heartbroken that Bëor is dying so soon, while all the Men are extolling the long life Bëor lived and how they were all lucky to have him with them so long. That stark contrast in viewpoints will need to be made explicit for the audience.

I think that in the episode with Beor's death, he should die at the beginning rather than the end. I would rather see Finrod reacting to Beor telling him farewell one day and suddenly stop living than an episode of Beor and his family trying to explain what death is to Finrod before Beor actually dies.

So, a story like this would make Bëor a central character in 2 episodes (his death and his entrance!), an important, albeit B-or-C plot character in the episode where his people move to Dorthonion, and a minor supporting character in a more Finrod-centric episode. I think that's about the right 'size' for Bëor's story. We could add a little bit more..but not TOO much more. Most importantly, it gives us time to show how much he loves and cares about the elves, and why he thinks living among them is so great.

I don't think Beor should be a central character in the episode in which he dies for the reason I stated above. The episode will be all about Beor, but he will be a corpse for most of it rather than a living character.

What types of conversations would Bëor have? I think we'll definitely want scenes among his Men when they cross into Beleriand, but before they meet elves. He has to express his hope, and articulate why he thinks Beleriand is the promised land and what he thinks they'll find there. Why he thinks this journey will be worth it. Who can he say these things to? Obviously, some random dude in his band is always a possibility. But what if....his son Belen was killed in some tragic incident while they were crossing the mountains? Bëor could be taking care of his son's widow and baby. This would make Bëor look like an upstanding, honorable guy...and would give us a reason for Bereg to both follow Bëor around and think of him as his father, even though he's actually his grandfather. And this would mean that when Bëor is making decisions (follow Finrod, move to Dorthonion), these decisions directly impact his daughter-in-law, and he could talk to her about them.

I think that if we show Men before they cross into Beleriand, there shouldn't be many scenes of this. I know there is a desire to make Episode 1 all about Beor's perspective on his meeting with Finrod, but I would really like to preserve the mysteries of where Men come from and why they are seeking Beleriand. These can be things that Finrod is trying to find out from different Men over the course of the season. Beor can obviously tell him something about his people's journey (perhaps accompanied by flashback shots to before they crossed the mountains), but the details should be incredibly vague.

Bereg should not be born before the House of Beor comes into Beleriand, and he definitely shouldn't experience any kind of tragedy related to crossing the mountains. Bereg's view of the east should be a peaceful utopia where Men do not need to worry about the war with Morgoth.

Bëor is meant to die at the age of 93. Most men would have passed on their day-to-day responsibilities by then, so even if they are working and keeping the leadership title, they are definitely less hands-on than they were. What if Bëor, in choosing his son, has made Boromir the defacto heir, while Bereg is...not. This could foster some resentment, giving Bereg a reason to think as he does before the council. Telling the story of Bereg and Boromir could be an important part of the episode where Bëor dies. Passing the story baton....

Beor lives in Nargothrond while the rest of his people live in Dorthonion or Estolad. Even if Beor is still officially called the leader of his house, his son Balan and whoever is in charge in Estolad are the ones doing the day-to-day running of the house.

I think that Bereg and Boromir should not know each other well before the funeral of Beor. Boromir should come from Dorthonion, and Bereg should come from Estolad. They decide to hang out together at the funeral because they're both about the same age. Their conversations reveal the differences between Men who have lived among and learned from the Elves and those who haven't. Boromir can be just as enthusiastic about the Elves as Beor was; Bereg can be a little more skeptical. They can watch and listen to the Elves reacting to the death of Beor. They hear concerns voiced about how quickly the lives of Men pass and what this means for the war with Morgoth. Bereg and Boromir interpret these differently. Boromir thinks that perhaps it is best that Men and Elves not live quite so closely together. Bereg takes this idea further and thinks that Men should leave Beleriand and leave the Elves to their war.

 

[Alcarohtar]

What if the first part of the episode is from Bëor's perspective. Bëor talks about their wish to find the "light in the west" or what ever. They decide of make a camp for the night. Boom there's Finrod and Bëor is amazed by him.
After a while Finrod decides to leaves them to get counsel from Thingol and the perspective changes to a more elvish viewpoint. Thingol reveals his very anti-men behavior. They agree to let them stay in Dorthonion. Finrod comes back to Bëor and offers to take them to live with the elves in Dorthonion. Some wants to stay in Estolad, they wanted the valar not the elves? Bëor is pro-elf all the time and he and Finrod are leading the people in front while talking and becoming good friends. After reaching Dorthonion, and Finrod and Bëor have come really good friends, Finrod asks if Bëor would come with him to Nargothrond. Bëor is super happy about it.

In an other episode we could have Boromir and Bereg coming to Nargothrond to stay a while with Bëor. Bereg comes form Estolad and Boromir from Dorthonion. They interact with Bëor and could be there when Bëor does other things together with Finrod too, maybe. At Bëor's death according to the timeline Boromir is 18 and Bereg 15, that would be considered adult by some, so they could build a relationship with Bëor. They wouldn't be infants. They could also be made a little older if we want, but their specific age won't really matter. Bëor would be considered the official leader of his house (even though he wouldn't be effectively ruling much), so maybe it would be some kind of tradition that the ruler's heirs/descendants would visit him and learn from him?

Maybe one of the things that happens during the time Bëor is living in Nargothrond could be that the other houses of Edain arrives in eastern Beleriand/Ossiriand. Bëor could say that maybe these men are the Haladin or the Marachians? Maybe Thingol asks for Finrod because of this and Bëor wants to go with him, but Finrod says that it would not be wise. This could be used to set up that the Haladin lives in Thargelion and the fëanorians do not want to get rid of them. Thingol is mad at the feanorians for not listening to him, and some other men are causing trouble in Ossiriand. They came down from the mountains and are so many that the green-elves do not dare show themselves, they're hunting the animals there and cutting down trees (It's the house of Marach/Hador). Galadriel and Celeborn could be fixing it and sending them to Estolad.

Finrod wouldn't really understand what was about to happen before Bëor's death. Bereg could be surprised too, he was old but not sick or anything. Boromir could understand that he went away willingly. Bereg doesn't understand why someone would choose to die, was it the elves's fault?
After the funeral Bereg goes back to Estolad and there are a lot more people there (house of Marach/Hador). He meets Amlach who is kind of mad the elves kicked them out of Ossiriand...

 

[MithLuin]

My grandfather died on his 93rd birthday. He did meet his great-grandchildren (well, some of them) before he died - they were all young children at the time. When he was 91, he was still driving (not well, mind you; he parked more by touch than sight....). He kept his mental faculties until the end, and was still getting around at least a bit. He was only sick in the last couple of months, really, but you don't get to be that age and not have ongoing health issues. I was once out to lunch with my grandfather, my father, and two of my father's friends. My father and his friends (men in their 60's) started talking about their health complaints...and my grandfather laughed in their faces in a 'wait until you actually get old' sort of way.

I say all this to let you know what my personal view of '93 year old man' looks like. Not necessarily decrepit or senile...but also very clearly and definitely not hale. Finrod has never seen death from old age before, it's true. He has only seen old age in dwarves (Norn last season). He's not really familiar with that and doesn't know what it means, but at the same time, he would notice that his friend is not well. Bëor wouldn't be able to hear or see as well as he had in the past. He'd be getting around very slowly and most likely with aid - he wouldn't have good balance, and would perhaps have slipped and broken a hip at some point. Elves know about broken bones...but humans don't heal very quickly when they are in their 80's. Bëor's health would be very, very concerning to whatever elvish healer is taking a look at him, and also puzzling.

I can see elves being puzzled by a guy in his 70's....huh, you look different. But a guy who is pushing 90? They are going to be busy trying to figure out what is wrong with him, because something is clearly Not Right. At all. They wouldn't understand aging, but I don't think Bëor's death would really be a surprise. There was so much going on there that clearly he was unwell. The question is...what is wrong with him, and why can't we fix it?

I don't think Beor should be a central character in the episode in which he dies for the reason I stated above. The episode will be all about Beor, but he will be a corpse for most of it rather than a living character.

That is certainly one approach - Bëor's death is something all of the other characters react to.

While I think that that could work, and we could do something with that, my main concern is reducing Bëor to an incidental character too quickly. We're spending the entire season opener focusing on Bëor, introducing him to the audience, and saying, 'look, these are Men!'

To then take that time investment and say, 'okay, here's a few more brief scenes with the guy....oops, he's dead now!' feels like a waste. Why would we do such an elaborate set-up of his character if his story isn't going anywhere? That's where I really start feeling discouraged about his character arc. If he's meeting Finrod - moving his people to Dorthonion - becoming Finrod's vassal all in one episode, then...what is left for him after that? A tournament is an interesting suggestion. But if he just...dies...as the followup, then...why did we do all that work showing the audience who he was, if he wasn't going to do anything more?

I am fine with characters appearing in only one episode. Lots of TV shows introduce a character for only a single episode. I just didn't think that was what we were hoping to do with Bëor.

I realize that, at the time of Bëor's death in the original timeline, Bereg and Boromir are teens. I am strongly suggesting we alter that timeline, so that they can be older and have known him for longer. And I do want some interaction.

I don't know what we'll be doing with Estolad; my guess is we will introduce it with the House of Hador, rather than in Episode 1.

 

[Haakon]

How often does Finrod meet Bëor? I'm asking because, if he misses just ten years of Bëor´s ageing, say between 80 and 90, the change in Bëor will, as @MithLuin says, be dramatic. Perhaps Finrod won't even recognize his friend at first.

I realize that, at the time of Bëor's death in the original timeline, Bereg and Boromir are teens. I am strongly suggesting we alter that timeline, so that they can be older and have known him for longer. And I do want some interaction.

Agreed, they can be twenty something. I do think that Men will be considered adults in certain regards from an early age, say 14 or 15 or something like that. If they are, say 23 at the time of Bëor's death, they will have been around him for almost ten years, which should be enough for humans.

 

[Alcarohtar]

While I think that that could work, and we could do something with that, my main concern is reducing Bëor to an incidental character too quickly. We're spending the entire season opener focusing on Bëor, introducing him to the audience, and saying, 'look, these are Men!'

I kind of unsure of what more Bëor should do. Isn't his story that he comes west meet the elves and joins them, then at his death he shocks the elves because they have never seen this kind of death before? We totally should focus on him in the first episode, and he can hang out with Finrod the next episode(s) before dying. But what more does he do? I think we should focus on him and Finrod and develop their relationship. We could show that Bëor is aging and the elves don't understand what's going on. The text says that Bëor dies willingly, it's not because of sorrow or wounds. So sure his health could be deteriorating, but he wouldn't die of any sickness.

Agreed, they can be twenty something. I do think that Men will be considered adults in certain regards from an early age, say 14 or 15 or something like that. If they are, say 23 at the time of Bëor's death, they will have been around him for almost ten years, which should be enough for humans.

They could surely be in their twenties and still be his great-grandson. Bëor, Baran etc could potentially have kids at the age of 20, and that means Boromir and Bereg could be born when Bëor is 60, and that they could potentially be 33 at his death. If we want. So they could totally be older than in the timeline. But we don't want to have Boromir be 110 years old before he dies though. We don't need to specify that they are his great-grandsons.

 

[Rhiannon]

What if the first part of the episode is from Bëor's perspective. Bëor talks about their wish to find the "light in the west" or what ever. They decide of make a camp for the night. Boom there's Finrod and Bëor is amazed by him.
After a while Finrod decides to leaves them to get counsel from Thingol and the perspective changes to a more elvish viewpoint. Thingol reveals his very anti-men behavior. They agree to let them stay in Dorthonion. Finrod comes back to Bëor and offers to take them to live with the elves in Dorthonion. Some wants to stay in Estolad, they wanted the valar not the elves? Bëor is pro-elf all the time and he and Finrod are leading the people in front while talking and becoming good friends. After reaching Dorthonion, and Finrod and Bëor have come really good friends, Finrod asks if Bëor would come with him to Nargothrond. Bëor is super happy about it.

I would like the impulse to move the House of Beor to Dorthonion to come from Finrod and his brothers rather than from Thingol. I think we should wait to show Thingol's reaction to Men until all the houses are in Beleriand, and his refusal to let Men live anywhere but the north could even be combined with him turning away Haleth if we wanted to.

Finrod would want to get the House of Beor out of Ossiriand pretty quickly because that's where the Green-elves live, so he talks to Amras and establishes Estolad as a place where Men can settle temporarily. Then, the Elf-lords try to get Men to move in with them. Finrod could do this by emphasizing how much the Elves have to teach Men, but Angrod and Aegnor would be more focused on recruiting Men as military allies.

I think Beor should be the one asking to come to Nargothrond with Finrod, not the other way around. While Finrod likes Men, he doesn't necessarily want them to all come live in Nargothrond because that's supposed to be a secret realm. However, because Beor loves the Elves so much, Finrod makes an exception for him.

In an other episode we could have Boromir and Bereg coming to Nargothrond to stay a while with Bëor. Bereg comes form Estolad and Boromir from Dorthonion. They interact with Bëor and could be there when Bëor does other things together with Finrod too, maybe. At Bëor's death according to the timeline Boromir is 18 and Bereg 15, that would be considered adult by some, so they could build a relationship with Bëor. They wouldn't be infants. They could also be made a little older if we want, but their specific age won't really matter. Bëor would be considered the official leader of his house (even though he wouldn't be effectively ruling much), so maybe it would be some kind of tradition that the ruler's heirs/descendants would visit him and learn from him?

When we show Beor interacting with other Men after he has moved to Nargothrond, he should be going to visit them wherever they are, not them coming to Nargothrond to visit him. Again, Nargothrond is supposed to be a secret realm, so people from the House of Beor shouldn't know the way there and be able to drop by and visit Beor.

I'm not in favor of showing an extremely close relationship between Beor and Boromir and Bereg. I think we should use the generation gap to emphasize the passage of time.

But, if we do need to show some kind of relationship between Beor and his great-grandsons, I think it should be something that he builds with each of them separately. Boromir should be in Dorthonion and heir to Beor's position as chief of the entire house; Bereg should be in Estolad and while his family may have some authority there, he wouldn't be in line to become a chief or anything.

I think that Beor should be visiting Dorthonion and Estolad so he can teach his people the stuff he learned from the Elves in Nargothrond. He would probably try to convince more of those in Estolad to move to Dorthonion. However, we could show that young Bereg is less interested in hearing about the Elves and keeps asking Beor for tales of Men before they came to Beleriand. This would be a great chance to show one of the legends Men tell of why they were moving west.

While I think that that could work, and we could do something with that, my main concern is reducing Bëor to an incidental character too quickly. We're spending the entire season opener focusing on Bëor, introducing him to the audience, and saying, 'look, these are Men!'

To then take that time investment and say, 'okay, here's a few more brief scenes with the guy....oops, he's dead now!' feels like a waste. Why would we do such an elaborate set-up of his character if his story isn't going anywhere? That's where I really start feeling discouraged about his character arc. If he's meeting Finrod - moving his people to Dorthonion - becoming Finrod's vassal all in one episode, then...what is left for him after that? A tournament is an interesting suggestion. But if he just...dies...as the followup, then...why did we do all that work showing the audience who he was, if he wasn't going to do anything more?

What if we show Finrod reacting to Beor's aging in an episode before Beor dies? The main focus of the episode wouldn't be on Beor's aging, but as Beor and Finrod are travelling around negotiating with other Elves or with other houses of Men, Finrod would start to notice that Beor's health is declining. Then, in the next episode, Beor dies and everyone else reacts to that.

I'm not sure Beor has much of a character arc. He likes the Elves from when he first meets Finrod to his death. He is more a character in Elvish stories than they are in his story. I think the kind of change we show in Beor should be him acquiring knowledge from the Elves and trying to share this knowledge with his people. He would hear about the Valar and Valinor and unquestioningly believe in them, unlike some others of his house. He should also in some sense become greater due to his constant interactions with the Calaquendi.

I suggest the episodes with Beor go as follows:

1st episode: Beor meets Finrod. Finrod wants to know where Men come from and why they came to Beleriand. Beor only gives vague answers: they are fleeing the Shadow and seeking the Light. Finrod convinces the House of Beor to move to Estolad and goes off to tell the other Elves about Men. Angrod and Aegnor invite the House of Beor to live in Dorthonion with them. The House of Beor begins to move to Dorthonion, but Beor asks if he can come with Finrod to Nargothrond instead.

2nd episode: Some time has passed and the House of Beor is settled in Dorthonion. There is a big tournament for Men and Elves, and other Elves react to the Men in various ways. Perhaps we show Beor meeting young Boromir here.

3rd episode: Beor is older (maybe in his 80s), and he and Finrod are travelling together. Beor's health is starting to decline, and Finrod is getting worried for him. They stop by Estolad, and Beor tries to convince more of his people to live with the Elves. The Men in Estolad are surprised that Beor is still alive at his age because their lifespans were shorter before they met the Elves. Beor interacts with young Bereg, who is more interested in stories of Men than stories of the Elves and Valar. Beor tells Bereg a story of why Men came to Beleriand that is a little more detailed than what he initially told Finrod. If Beor didn't meet Boromir in the last episode, then Beor could visit Dorthonion too.

4th episode: Beor dies, and Elves and Men react to that.

I didn't call these episodes 1-4 because they don't necessarily need to be the first four episodes in the season. There could be other episodes between them that focus entirely on the Elves or Dwarves or other houses of Men without a subplot about the House of Beor.

If we wanted to, I think that the council with fake Amlach could take place in the same episode as Beor's death. We could show Men discussing Elves at the same time as Elves discussing Men, and Beor's death would be the catalyst for both these discussions. In Estolad, Men would realize that the actual battle with Morgoth may not happen in their lifetimes, which would cause them to question whether they want to spend their lifetimes working with the Elves to prepare for it.

I don't know what we'll be doing with Estolad; my guess is we will introduce it with the House of Hador, rather than in Episode 1.

I think it would be a mistake to not have the House of Beor go to Estolad. Estolad offers us a chance to contrast Men who have lived directly among Elves and those who have not, as well as the different houses of Men when they arrive.

 

[Alcarohtar]

I would like the impulse to move the House of Beor to Dorthonion to come from Finrod and his brothers rather than from Thingol. I think we should wait to show Thingol's reaction to Men until all the houses are in Beleriand, and his refusal to let Men live anywhere but the north could even be combined with him turning away Haleth if we wanted to.

I think it would be nice to establish the differences between Finrod and Thingol early this season. Finrod loves men, but Thingol is more sceptical. What if all the Thingol/Finrod stuff has happened off screen, and Bëor (and the viewers) only know that Finrod/brothers invites them to Dorthonion?
Later when the other houses of Edain enter Beleriand Thingol could call for Finrod, and it would be revealed that Finrod had listened to Thingol's wish that they should not be in "his" lands.

We could introduce the other men in Beleriand in this Finrod/Thingol story. For example we could have Thingol talking about men in Ossiriand and he could send Celeborn to fix things. This way we could establish the third house in Estolad without really introducing them as individual characters. Later we meet Amlach as a character in Estolad. We could also use this to show that the Haladin are in Thargelion. Maybe it could be a point of controversy between Thingol and the feanorians? The feanorians could be contrasted against Finrod, who is willing to listen to Thingol. This way we could establish the different houses where we want them to be when we tell their stories (Haleth in Thargelion, and Amlach/Adanel in Estolad).

We could also have Bëor talking to Finrod about that these men may be some that he met east of the mountains.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

I think it would be nice to establish the differences between Finrod and Thingol early this season. Finrod loves men, but Thingol is more sceptical. What if all the Thingol/Finrod stuff has happened off screen, and Bëor (and the viewers) only know that Finrod/brothers invites them to Dorthonion?
Later when the other houses of Edain enter Beleriand Thingol could call for Finrod, and it would be revealed that Finrod had listened to Thingol's wish that they should not be in "his" lands.

We could introduce the other men in Beleriand in this Finrod/Thingol story. For example we could have Thingol talking about men in Ossiriand and he could send Celeborn to fix things. This way we could establish the third house in Estolad without really introducing them as individual characters. Later we meet Amlach as a character in Estolad. We could also use this to show that the Haladin are in Thargelion. Maybe it could be a point of controversy between Thingol and the feanorians? The feanorians could be contrasted against Finrod, who is willing to listen to Thingol. This way we could establish the different houses where we want them to be when we tell their stories (Haleth in Thargelion, and Amlach/Adanel in Estolad).

We could also have Bëor talking to Finrod about that these men may be some that he met east of the mountains.

Well of course Thingol’s attitude towards Men will develop towards racism by next season. What pushes him this season? Or is that how he’d behave if anybody tried to woo Luthien?

 

[Alcarohtar]

Well of course Thingol’s attitude towards Men will develop towards racism by next season. What pushes him this season? Or is that how he’d behave if anybody tried to woo Luthien?

Well in the Silmarillion it's said that Thingol had bad dreams about men even before they came to Beleriand. I suggested earlier that these dreams could really be about the easterlings that come later. But Thingol could misinterpret it to think it's about men in general. In the beginning he's maybe just mistrusting the men and doesn't want them near his realm (one reason that Bëor goes to Dorthonion). Later when the other houses of the Edain comes he may interpret their behavior in light of his dreams. So when the third house comes into Ossiriand and hunt the animals and cut down trees Thingol could think of them as trouble makers. Maybe he starts thinking of them as "The Sickly" (Engwar) after their mortality is revealed? It could turn Maybe he over this season starts thinking of men as a kind of sickness, and that's partially why he won't let Beren marry Lúthien?

 

[Rhiannon]

I feel like a big question we'll need to answer this season is how much do Men know about the Kinslaying? And how does this shape their view of the Elves?

Would Finrod tell Beor openly about the Kinslaying and how the Noldor are exiled, or would he gloss over that and just say they came to fight Morgoth? If Finrod doesn't tell Men about the Kinslaying, do they find out from somewhere else?

 

[Ange1e4e5]

I feel like a big question we'll need to answer this season is how much do Men know about the Kinslaying? And how does this shape their view of the Elves?

Would Finrod tell Beor openly about the Kinslaying and how the Noldor are exiled, or would he gloss over that and just say they came to fight Morgoth? If Finrod doesn't tell Men about the Kinslaying, do they find out from somewhere else?

He might reveal it to him in confidence as part of the idea of lightly letting him down about being one of the Valar, but none of the Men discuss it. Therefore we cannot confirm or deny if they know. It‘s possible that they do know and decide to not do anything about it since Man-upon-Man murder is treated more as a fact of life (perhaps this is the wrong way to say it...).

 

[Alcarohtar]

I suggest the episodes with Beor go as follows:

1st episode: Beor meets Finrod. Finrod wants to know where Men come from and why they came to Beleriand. Beor only gives vague answers: they are fleeing the Shadow and seeking the Light. Finrod convinces the House of Beor to move to Estolad and goes off to tell the other Elves about Men. Angrod and Aegnor invite the House of Beor to live in Dorthonion with them. The House of Beor begins to move to Dorthonion, but Beor asks if he can come with Finrod to Nargothrond instead.

2nd episode: Some time has passed and the House of Beor is settled in Dorthonion. There is a big tournament for Men and Elves, and other Elves react to the Men in various ways. Perhaps we show Beor meeting young Boromir here.

3rd episode: Beor is older (maybe in his 80s), and he and Finrod are travelling together. Beor's health is starting to decline, and Finrod is getting worried for him. They stop by Estolad, and Beor tries to convince more of his people to live with the Elves. The Men in Estolad are surprised that Beor is still alive at his age because their lifespans were shorter before they met the Elves. Beor interacts with young Bereg, who is more interested in stories of Men than stories of the Elves and Valar. Beor tells Bereg a story of why Men came to Beleriand that is a little more detailed than what he initially told Finrod. If Beor didn't meet Boromir in the last episode, then Beor could visit Dorthonion too.

4th episode: Beor dies, and Elves and Men react to that.

I didn't call these episodes 1-4 because they don't necessarily need to be the first four episodes in the season. There could be other episodes between them that focus entirely on the Elves or Dwarves or other houses of Men without a subplot about the House of Beor.

If we wanted to, I think that the council with fake Amlach could take place in the same episode as Beor's death. We could show Men discussing Elves at the same time as Elves discussing Men, and Beor's death would be the catalyst for both these discussions. In Estolad, Men would realize that the actual battle with Morgoth may not happen in their lifetimes, which would cause them to question whether they want to spend their lifetimes working with the Elves to prepare for it.

I suggest that Finrod in called to Doriath by Thingol in episode 2, and we hear about the other 2 houses of the Edain in Thargelion and Ossiriand. He could speak with Bëor about the other men and why they migrated maybe? Thingol telling Finrod about the to different houses of Edain in Thargelion and Ossiriand could help viewers understand their differences.

Maybe episode 2 and 3 could be just one. So Bëor and Finrod would be travelling around, visiting his people in Dorthonion and Estolad. During their journeys Bëor would become older and older illustrating that they cover several years, and Finrod would react to Bëor's declining health. Bëor meets Boromir and Bereg during their travels, and tell them stories. Boromir wants to hear about the elves and Nargothrond etc, while Bereg is more interested in the past, how they lived before meeting the elves and the east.

In the fourth episode we could have Bëor's death and his funeral. Boromir and Bereg come. Finrod discusses things with other elves. Boromir and Bereg talkes, but they realise that they are quite different. Bereg doesn't understand how Bëor could willingly give up his life. Boromir is still pro-elf, but Bereg turns even more away from the elves. The elves are immortal and have healers, why couldn't they just save Bëor? Maybe they listen to some of what the elves are saying and interpret it differently. Maybe Thuringwethil could be spying on people during this funeral? She picks up that Bereg is kind of starting to go anti-elves. We could reintroduce the bad guys here, and their plan to try to turn men against elves. Bereg end up back in Estolad and meets Amlach.

Fifth episode could be Haleth and the Battle at the Stockade.

Sixth episode could be the Council (without the need to get the third house there because Thingol handled that in episode 2). Bereg end up back in Estolad and meets Amlach. They talk together and both are anti-elves. Amlach is kind of mad because they were thrown out of Ossiriand. They interact with Adanel (and maybe her brother, the chieftain?). Sometime during the episode Amlach goes from a little anti-elves to more extreme anti-elves (this is because he's replaced by Thuringwethil/Sauron). Adanel have young Andreth there and teaches her. The episode could culminate with the council and Bereg going east. I the end it's revealed that Amlach was replaced by the bad guys. He goes to serve Maedhros because of what the bad guys did to him.

 

[Alcarohtar]

I feel like a big question we'll need to answer this season is how much do Men know about the Kinslaying? And how does this shape their view of the Elves?

Would Finrod tell Beor openly about the Kinslaying and how the Noldor are exiled, or would he gloss over that and just say they came to fight Morgoth? If Finrod doesn't tell Men about the Kinslaying, do they find out from somewhere else?

Maybe it could be a thing discussed at the council? Fake-Amlach (really Sauron?) could reveal it and say that elves are dangerous and they kill their own friends or something. It kind of fits into the whole Fake-Amlach speaking about how the elves are evil, killing the orcs to rule the whole of Beleriand. Maybe someone from the pro-elf camp could counter it with something like this:

It‘s possible that they do know and decide to not do anything about it since Man-upon-Man murder is treated more as a fact of life (perhaps this is the wrong way to say it...).

Maybe Sauron would have been hoping for an other reaction, more like the Sindar, but he doesn't really understand humanity either. For pro-elves men it could be more like: ok, that was like 50 generations ago, surely they have changed.

 

[Rhiannon]

I suggest that Finrod in called to Doriath by Thingol in episode 2, and we hear about the other 2 houses of the Edain in Thargelion and Ossiriand. He could speak with Bëor about the other men and why they migrated maybe? Thingol telling Finrod about the to different houses of Edain in Thargelion and Ossiriand could help viewers understand their differences.

Maybe episode 2 and 3 could be just one. So Bëor and Finrod would be travelling around, visiting his people in Dorthonion and Estolad. During their journeys Bëor would become older and older illustrating that they cover several years, and Finrod would react to Bëor's declining health. Bëor meets Boromir and Bereg during their travels, and tell them stories. Boromir wants to hear about the elves and Nargothrond etc, while Bereg is more interested in the past, how they lived before meeting the elves and the east.

In the fourth episode we could have Bëor's death and his funeral. Boromir and Bereg come. Finrod discusses things with other elves. Boromir and Bereg talkes, but they realise that they are quite different. Bereg doesn't understand how Bëor could willingly give up his life. Boromir is still pro-elf, but Bereg turns even more away from the elves. The elves are immortal and have healers, why couldn't they just save Bëor? Maybe they listen to some of what the elves are saying and interpret it differently. Maybe Thuringwethil could be spying on people during this funeral? She picks up that Bereg is kind of starting to go anti-elves. We could reintroduce the bad guys here, and their plan to try to turn men against elves. Bereg end up back in Estolad and meets Amlach.

Fifth episode could be Haleth and the Battle at the Stockade.

Sixth episode could be the Council (without the need to get the third house there because Thingol handled that in episode 2). Bereg end up back in Estolad and meets Amlach. They talk together and both are anti-elves. Amlach is kind of mad because they were thrown out of Ossiriand. They interact with Adanel (and maybe her brother, the chieftain?). Sometime during the episode Amlach goes from a little anti-elves to more extreme anti-elves (this is because he's replaced by Thuringwethil/Sauron). Adanel have young Andreth there and teaches her. The episode could culminate with the council and Bereg going east. I the end it's revealed that Amlach was replaced by the bad guys. He goes to serve Maedhros because of what the bad guys did to him.

I would prefer that the Council come before the introduction of Haleth and the Battle at the Stockade for two main reasons:

First, since Angband is currently under siege, Morgoth's initial strategy should be to send out Sauron and try to turn Men against the Elves. Morgoth may hope that the Edain will be swayed to his side as easily as their forefathers in Hildorien were. However, when this doesn't work, he sends Orcs to attack them, starting with the Haladin because they seek weakest and disconnected from the other houses.

Second, the Council in Estolad leaves opens some questions about whether Men should serve the Elves or not and what they should do about Morgoth in the north. Bereg has one answer: leave Beleriand and let the Elves deal with it. Haleth will come next with a better answer: fight Morgoth, but don't directly serve the Elves. After Haleth, Hador will also answer this question: fight Morgoth alongside the Elves.

Also, even if they don't happen in the same episode, I think there is a logical progression from Beor's death to the Council. Because Haleth's story is so isolated, it would seem weird to have it take place between these.

If we have an episode in which Beor visits Estolad, we could also introduce Amlach and Adanel there as some of Bereg's friends.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Maybe it could be a thing discussed at the council? Fake-Amlach (really Sauron?) could reveal it and say that elves are dangerous and they kill their own friends or something. It kind of fits into the whole Fake-Amlach speaking about how the elves are evil, killing the orcs to rule the whole of Beleriand. Maybe someone from the pro-elf camp could counter it with something like this:

Maybe Sauron would have been hoping for an other reaction, more like the Sindar, but he doesn't really understand humanity either. For pro-elves men it could be more like: ok, that was like 50 generations ago, surely they have changed.

Why would Haleth’s story take place before the council?

 

[Alcarohtar]

Why would Haleth’s story take place before the council?

Corey wanted to have Haleth as the second story, before the council.

I would prefer that the Council come before the introduction of Haleth and the Battle at the Stockade

But I agree that the council fits better.