Flammifer
Well-Known Member
In Bag End, Gandalf says to Frodo, “A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness.”
At the Council of Elrond, Gandalf says, “I learned also that he (Gollum) had possessed it (the Ring) long. Many lives of his small kind. The power of the ring had lengthened his years far beyond their span; but that power only the Great Rings wield.”
So, twice, Gandalf asserts this power to the Great Rings. This brings up three questions:
There is no path of logic by which Gandalf could deduce this assertion. He could deduce it from observation of the Nine and the Ring-wraiths, but that would be contradicted by the Seven and the Dwarves. There is no evidence from the Three, as their keepers have never been mortal. There is evidence from the One (Gollum and Bilbo), but this applies only to the One, not to all ‘Great Rings’. So, where does Gandalf get this assertion from?
Why would the Great Rings even have this power? Sure it might be useful for the Nine and the Seven, both to lure users to them, and to mitigate succession problems for Sauron amongst his servants. But why would it be a useful feature for the Three? Elves are immortal anyway. And so is Sauron, so why would it be a useful feature for the One?
So, it is a curious assertion for Gandalf to make. It is also a curious feature or power to have built into some of the Great Rings.
As far as Gandalf goes, I think he is deliberately obfuscating. He claims that Great Rings have the power to extend life in Bag End to Frodo just because he wants to build up to his reveal that Frodo’s ring is not just a Great Ring, but the One Ring. The same is true in Rivendell. Gandalf (like JRRT) takes a delight in the build-up and foreshadowing before the dramatic reveal. He does this both in Bag End and in Rivendell. There is no need to suspect that he really believes that all Great Rings deliver deathlessness to all mortals. Wizards are subtle. Note what Gandalf actually says: “A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die “; yes, that ONE of the Great Rings; “but that power only the Great Rings wield”; yes, but not ALL of the Great Rings. There is no need to take as literal truth every statement that Gandalf makes. There is certainly no need to be taken in by every insinuation which Gandalf implies. He induces inferences beyond the facts quite often. Beware.
As to why this power might be present in Great Rings (such as the One) which should not need it, perhaps it is an enabling power which is necessary for the other (more useful) powers of the Ring to work. In this case, shouldn’t it be a feature of all Great Rings, so why does it not work in the Seven, on Dwarves? All I can guess is that Sauron’s great ring conjury was flawed. We know that there is a jar in the rhythm in the Black Speech. Does that indicate a jar in the spell? If the spell is flawed, then that could well be why the Seven don’t work as planned, why the Three can be hidden and not found?
At the Council of Elrond, Gandalf says, “I learned also that he (Gollum) had possessed it (the Ring) long. Many lives of his small kind. The power of the ring had lengthened his years far beyond their span; but that power only the Great Rings wield.”
So, twice, Gandalf asserts this power to the Great Rings. This brings up three questions:
- Why does Gandalf make this assertion when it is false?
- How would Gandalf have discovered this if it were true?
- Why would this be a power of any use to some of the Great Rings?
There is no path of logic by which Gandalf could deduce this assertion. He could deduce it from observation of the Nine and the Ring-wraiths, but that would be contradicted by the Seven and the Dwarves. There is no evidence from the Three, as their keepers have never been mortal. There is evidence from the One (Gollum and Bilbo), but this applies only to the One, not to all ‘Great Rings’. So, where does Gandalf get this assertion from?
Why would the Great Rings even have this power? Sure it might be useful for the Nine and the Seven, both to lure users to them, and to mitigate succession problems for Sauron amongst his servants. But why would it be a useful feature for the Three? Elves are immortal anyway. And so is Sauron, so why would it be a useful feature for the One?
So, it is a curious assertion for Gandalf to make. It is also a curious feature or power to have built into some of the Great Rings.
As far as Gandalf goes, I think he is deliberately obfuscating. He claims that Great Rings have the power to extend life in Bag End to Frodo just because he wants to build up to his reveal that Frodo’s ring is not just a Great Ring, but the One Ring. The same is true in Rivendell. Gandalf (like JRRT) takes a delight in the build-up and foreshadowing before the dramatic reveal. He does this both in Bag End and in Rivendell. There is no need to suspect that he really believes that all Great Rings deliver deathlessness to all mortals. Wizards are subtle. Note what Gandalf actually says: “A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die “; yes, that ONE of the Great Rings; “but that power only the Great Rings wield”; yes, but not ALL of the Great Rings. There is no need to take as literal truth every statement that Gandalf makes. There is certainly no need to be taken in by every insinuation which Gandalf implies. He induces inferences beyond the facts quite often. Beware.
As to why this power might be present in Great Rings (such as the One) which should not need it, perhaps it is an enabling power which is necessary for the other (more useful) powers of the Ring to work. In this case, shouldn’t it be a feature of all Great Rings, so why does it not work in the Seven, on Dwarves? All I can guess is that Sauron’s great ring conjury was flawed. We know that there is a jar in the rhythm in the Black Speech. Does that indicate a jar in the spell? If the spell is flawed, then that could well be why the Seven don’t work as planned, why the Three can be hidden and not found?