Session 5-15 & 5-16: Season Outline

I have an unusual suggestion of how to do this. We showcased Huan in the Season 4 finale, and Celegorm and Fingon have many opportunities to talk with one another. Even more than that, there is at least one scene where Glaurung is clearly listening to their conversation unawares! I don't think we're going to find a better opportunity to showcase the prophecy than that in Season 5. So, what would you think about adding the Prophecy of Huan's fate to the end of this scene? We will need to transition from the 'fight' and unkind words between Celegorm and Fingon to Fingon sharing his kind(?) words about Huan not being defeated by this monster they are facing, but living to meet the greatest wolf ever born.

Thoughts?

I think it is a more fitting battle scene than any we have in this season. Generally, I still think having it as part of a quiet moment is better; my general concern with a prophecy coming from a friendly elf after Huan does something awesome is that it totally misses the tone of Huan's doom in Tolkien's works. It's part of the severe and cruel Doom of Mandos, Huan's punishment for staying true to Celegorm. In the context the hosts were suggesting, it sounds like a positive, even awesome, quality of Huan that only a certain opponent can kill him when it's supposed to be a curse - Huan wasn't supposed to ever die before he fell under the Doom of Mandos.

And in both the Silmarillion and our adaptation, it really looks like he isn't very likely to ever die under regular circumstances. He goes into the frontlines of multiple battles fearlessly - without armor, without the ability to parry attacks and with his teeth as his weapons (that require him to come extremely close to an opponent and leave him wide open for attacks from all sides) - and yet never dies or is permanently wounded, and he is immune to magic.
 
I have an unusual suggestion of how to do this. We showcased Huan in the Season 4 finale, and Celegorm and Fingon have many opportunities to talk with one another. Even more than that, there is at least one scene where Glaurung is clearly listening to their conversation unawares! I don't think we're going to find a better opportunity to showcase the prophecy than that in Season 5. So, what would you think about adding the Prophecy of Huan's fate to the end of this scene? We will need to transition from the 'fight' and unkind words between Celegorm and Fingon to Fingon sharing his kind(?) words about Huan not being defeated by this monster they are facing, but living to meet the greatest wolf ever born.



Thoughts?
Well, I had suggested Celegorm and Huan escorting the Haladin when they make their trek out of Thargelion, the prophecy is mentioned there, Thurwingwethil hears it while in flight, she tells Sauron, Sauron notifies Morgoth, Morgoth starts feeding Caracaroth Elf-meat and Morgoth-power.
 
There are other places we can put it in Season 5, but not many places they will fit, and not many scenes that we will want Huan in. That leads to awkwardly manufacturing scenes or shoe-horning Huan (or the prophetic elf!) into scenes where they do not fit. Can we do that? Sure, we could. But would it be an *improvement* over including it in the Huan-heavy Glaurung episode?

So, for instance, with your suggestion, Ange1e4e5, who will be the elf uttering the prophecy? We don't want it to be Celegorm. And why does Haleth accept the 'escort' out of Thargelion when she has just turned down Caranthir's offer to live there? Wouldn't she say 'no thank you, we've got this' to Celegorm if he offered to lead her away? And why are we showing the scene of them leaving and focusing on this prophecy after the climatic moments of the episode (the battle, the conversation with Caranthir)? That will feel...tacked on, especially if it's not setting up anything for the next episode, which...it is not.

So you see the problems. We *can* make a prophecy about Huan be uttered on screen. But will it fit? Or will it fall flat?

Whereas inserting it into this scene (a quiet moment, while they are still hunting down their foe, who hunts them in turn) requires just the slightest addition, no additional scenes, no explanations, simply a bit more to an uneasy conversation between cousins:

I have an unusual suggestion of how to do this. We showcased Huan in the Season 4 finale, and Celegorm and Fingon have many opportunities to talk with one another. Even more than that, there is at least one scene where Glaurung is clearly listening to their conversation unawares! I don't think we're going to find a better opportunity to showcase the prophecy than that in Season 5. So, what would you think about adding the Prophecy of Huan's fate to the end of this scene? We will need to transition from the 'fight' and unkind words between Celegorm and Fingon to Fingon sharing his kind(?) words about Huan not being defeated by this monster they are facing, but living to meet the greatest wolf ever born.


EXT. ERED WETHRIN – DAY
CELEGORM, HUAN, the FËANORIAN SOLDIERS, FINGON, and his ARCHERS continue following the trail. They pass a place where the trail cuts very close to the edge of a gorge with some woods on the other side of it. Fingon urges his horse forward and rides up beside Celegorm. They ride alongside one another in silence for a moment before Fingon speaks.

FINGON​
Have you any idea how fast this beast doth travel?​

CELEGORM​
Faster than the soldiers King Fingolfin promised would be taking their turn at Fort Soronúmë.​

There is a long pause.

FINGON​
Celegorm, I am deeply sorry we were not there to fight alongside your men. We will never let this happen again.​

CELEGORM​
'Never again' cannot return to life the slain.​

(Beat. Celegorm draws his horse a little ahead so he does not have to look at Fingon.)

Though it turned out better that ye were late. Had ye been there on time, ye likely would only have been slain as well.​

Fingon takes this as an insult to his men’s fighting ability. He urges his horse forward again, drawing back alongside Celegorm. He is clearly considering what his next words should be to right this wrong.

HUAN returns from where he was following the trail ahead, and looks between Fingon and Celegorm. He falls into place at Celegorm's right hand, as always.


FINGON​
Death may indeed await us all here in Middle-earth, and the men who were slain by this beast fell under the Doom of Mandos, the same as do we.​

CELEGORM looks at him sharply, surprised by the change in tack from grovelling.

CELEGORM​
Indeed, though I would achieve deeds worthy of my father's name before that doom doth find me.​

eager to find common ground:
FINGON​
As would I!​

making it clear that he does not consider them to be the same in this regard:
CELEGORM​
Even Huan, faithful as he hath ever been to the Valar, fell under that doom when he followed us into exile. He doth not fear death, nor this beast that awaits us, nor fell words of Mandos.​

Fingon looks closely at the dog by Celegorm's side. Huan stares back at Fingon.

FINGON​
Followed thee into exile.​
(with firm certainty)
But death shall not find Huan, not until he meet the greatest wolf to ever live. He, at least, shall be remembered for his valiant deeds.​

CELEGORM​
Peace. No one hath forgotten how you won back my brother Maedhros from Morgoth's thralldom.​

FINGON​
Then let me and my men make up for this day's tardiness by finding and slaying this beast together with Huan...and with thee!​

Celegorm acquiesces. His anger has passed, though he speaks no words of reconciliation.

The camera shows the Elves riding by from a point of view within the woods across the gorge. Glowing red eyes shine out of the darkness behind some trees.



***

Alcarlótë, thank you for the suggestion of tying the prophecy concerning Huan into the Doom of Mandos. I think that will work quite well in this scene. If anyone has any suggestions for improvement, do let me know!
 
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There are other places we can put it in Season 5, but not many places they will fit, and not many scenes that we will want Huan in. That leads to awkwardly manufacturing scenes or shoe-horning Huan (or the prophetic elf!) into scenes where they do not fit. Can we do that? Sure, we could. But would it be an *improvement* over including it in the Huan-heavy Glaurung episode?

So, for instance, with your suggestion, Ange1e4e5, who will be the elf uttering the prophecy? We don't want it to be Celegorm. And why does Haleth accept the 'escort' out of Thargelion when she has just turned down Caranthir's offer to live there? Wouldn't she say 'no thank you, we've got this' to Celegorm if he offered to lead her away? And why are we showing the scene of them leaving and focusing on this prophecy after the climatic moments of the episode (the battle, the conversation with Caranthir)? That will feel...tacked on, especially if it's not setting up anything for the next episode, which...it is not.

So you see the problems. We *can* make a prophecy about Huan be uttered on screen. But will it fit? Or will it fall flat?

Whereas inserting it into this scene (a quiet moment, while they are still hunting down their foe, who hunts them in turn) requires just the slightest addition, no additional scenes, no explanations, simply a bit more to an uneasy conversation between cousins:




EXT. ERED WETHRIN – DAY
CELEGORM, HUAN, the FËANORIAN SOLDIERS, FINGON, and his ARCHERS continue following the trail. They pass a place where the trail cuts very close to the edge of a gorge with some woods on the other side of it. Fingon urges his horse forward and rides up beside Celegorm. They ride alongside one another in silence for a moment before Fingon speaks.

FINGON: Have you any idea how fast this beast doth travel?

CELEGORM: Faster than the soldiers King Fingolfin promised would be taking their turn at Fort Soronúmë.

There is a long pause.

FINGON: Celegorm, I am deeply sorry we were not there to fight alongside your men. We will never let this happen again.

CELEGORM: 'Never again' cannot return to life the slain.

(Beat. Celegorm draws his horse a little ahead so he does not have to look at Fingon.)

Though it turned out better that ye were late. Had ye been there on time, ye likely would only have been slain as well.

Fingon takes this as an insult to his men’s fighting ability. He urges his horse forward again, drawing back alongside Celegorm. He is clearly considering what his next words should be to right this wrong.

HUAN returns from where he was following the trail ahead, and looks between Fingon and Celegorm. He falls into place at Celegorm's right hand, as always.


FINGON: Death may await us all here in Middle-earth, and the men who were slain by this beast fell under the Doom of Mandos the same as do we.

CELEGORM looks at him sharply, surprised by the change in tack from grovelling.

CELEGORM: Indeed, though I would achieve deeds worthy of my father's name before that doom doth find me.

FINGON, eager to find common ground: As would I!

CELEGORM, making it clear that he does not consider them to be the same in this regard: Even Huan, faithful as he hath ever been to the Valar, fell under that doom when he followed us into exile. He doth not fear death, nor this beast that awaits us, nor fell words of Mandos.

Fingon looks closely at the dog by Celegorm's side. Huan stares back at Fingon.

FINGON: Followed thee into exile. But death shall not find Huan, not until he meet the greatest wolf to ever live. He, at least, shall be remembered for his valiant deeds.

CELEGORM: Peace. No one hath forgotten how thou didst win back my brother Maedhros from Morgoth's thralldom.

FINGON: Then let me and my men make up for this day's tardiness by finding and slaying this beast together with Huan and thee!

Celegorm acquiesces. His anger has passed, though he speaks no words of reconciliation.

The camera shows the Elves riding by from a point of view within the woods across the gorge. Glowing red eyes shine out of the darkness behind some trees.

I was working on adding that to the scene, but you beat me to it.
 
There are other places we can put it in Season 5, but not many places they will fit, and not many scenes that we will want Huan in. That leads to awkwardly manufacturing scenes or shoe-horning Huan (or the prophetic elf!) into scenes where they do not fit. Can we do that? Sure, we could. But would it be an *improvement* over including it in the Huan-heavy Glaurung episode?

So, for instance, with your suggestion, Ange1e4e5, who will be the elf uttering the prophecy? We don't want it to be Celegorm. And why does Haleth accept the 'escort' out of Thargelion when she has just turned down Caranthir's offer to live there? Wouldn't she say 'no thank you, we've got this' to Celegorm if he offered to lead her away? And why are we showing the scene of them leaving and focusing on this prophecy after the climatic moments of the episode (the battle, the conversation with Caranthir)? That will feel...tacked on, especially if it's not setting up anything for the next episode, which...it is not.

So you see the problems. We *can* make a prophecy about Huan be uttered on screen. But will it fit? Or will it fall flat?

Whereas inserting it into this scene (a quiet moment, while they are still hunting down their foe, who hunts them in turn) requires just the slightest addition, no additional scenes, no explanations, simply a bit more to an uneasy conversation between cousins:
I was working along with the "Celegorm and Huan accompanying Caranthir" idea, and as it stands right now, Celegorm would be the only character around Huan right now who might talk about it; to give examples, Fingon's going to be too far away in Dor-Lomin and Finrod's going to be preoccupied with the House of Bëor in Nargothrond.
 
Fingon is not in Dor-lómin in Episode 4, actually; he has travelled to East Beleriand and is...around, somewhere. Currently, we are slotted for a brief scene of him observing a Haladin settlement sometime during Episode 3. Then he'll go hang out with the Fëanoreans for awhile before eventually inviting Hador to come home with him. But I agree that we don't want Fingon, Celegorm, Huan, and Caranthir to interact with Haleth. That's...a bit much!

I agree that in your example, Celegorm is the only one around who would be able to talk about the prophesy. But I recall that the hosts said they didn't want any of the 'sketchy' Fëanoreans to utter this prophecy - Maglor is first choice, and Maedhros is second choice if it's going to be one of the six surviving brothers. So, having Celegorm do it is...not ideal. They specifically vetoed the idea of it being Celegorm. And, if it's Celegorm...why on earth would he say something now?? Isn't it a bit weird that he has lived with this dog in Beleriand every day for the past 385 years, and only *now* he's going to mention something about Huan's doom? Is this a frequent topic of conversation for him? Something he tells every stranger he meets? It's going to sound very clunky in his mouth. Much better to have a character *react* to Huan's presence, and then utter a spontaneous prophecy.

I am not saying we can't think up a reason for Celegorm and Huan to come across Galadriel and Celeborn, then have Huan kill a werewolf, have either Galadriel or Celeborn utter this prophecy, all while Thuringwethil spies on them. What I am saying is that it would be difficult to do this without the scene feeling very forced -- why are we stopping whatever story is going on to have this 'Huan interlude'? That is also an issue in your suggestion - it seems the only reason Celegorm is accompanying Haleth's people is to give an excuse for this bit with Huan, something that isn't going to impact Haleth in any way at all.

Whereas...in the example above from the Season 4 finale, Celegorm and Fingon are already talking about characters' deaths, with Huan present, while an enemy spies on them without their knowledge. I didn't add 'spying Glaurung' to that scene - he was already there; his spying pays off in the very next scene, when he attacks them. I didn't have to manufacture a reason for Celegorm and Fingon to be interacting...they were already doing so. I think that's a better fit than anything we can put in Season 5 at this point. I'm not saying you have to agree, I'm just explaining why I think this solution is a very different example from your suggestion.
 
So, I've been working on some stuff to propose to the hosts about the Dagor Bragollach episodes as it seems like they're going to get into it next session.

I've worked out a timeline of the major events and conflicts of the campaign, which I'll link below. This isn't an exhaustive list of what happens, so there are plenty of elements that aren't on there. This is just a visual representation of the major engagements.


I've divided the two episodes into their four acts, giving us eight stages. Most of these stages will include scenes from things other than the engagements going on at the time, but we can work those out later.

First, we have the attack on Dorthonion. This happens very quickly and is over before most of the other plots in the episode really gather steam. Killing major, named characters in the second act of this episode signals to the audience that we're serious. Anyone could die. Avengers: Infinity War has a good example of this, killing two supporting characters (one of whom being the breakout star of the Thor franchise), and defeating two of the most powerful main characters before the titles have even rolled. We'll also get Barahir covering the flight of his people once he realizes that Ladros is indefensible (perhaps he loses a brother or uncle before this happens). Additional notes: The A-Bros are in a particularly bad spot. The Men of Ladros (including the aged Andreth) are evacuating along the back of the Elvish lines. It is possible that Aegnor and Angrod's death result from their inability to withdraw without leaving the humans to die. Also-also, Barahir is probably hiding in the hills south of the Fens of Serech between the overthrow of Dorthonion and the near-capture of Finrod.

While Finrod and Fingolfin rush their armies to the front to respond, the Feanoreans also muster. Celegorm and Curufin are the first to engage, but are thrown back immediately, driven back to the Pass of Aglon, which is then overrun. Maglor's Gap is similarly assaulted, and Maglor is forced to flee.

Fingolfin arrives at Barad Eithel through the pass to find it beseiged from the east. Men of the house of Hador have taken refuge there after fleeing from Ard-Galen. Fingolfin leads a sortie out onto the field and meets with early success before the attack stalls, but as Episode 12 comes to an end, it becomes clear that the forces of Morgoth only sought to delay him, not defeat him. Once Dorthonion is dealt with and Himring surrounded, Morgoth's forces are able to concentrate on driving Fingolfin back to his fortress. By the end of the episode, the forces of Fingolfin are in full rout. By the midpoint of Episode 13, Fingolfin is back at Barad Eithel, which is surrounded. Galdor's men were crucial in their rear guard action, at the cost of many lives, including Galdor's brother.

Caranthir was present at Maglor's Gap, but when it falls, he retreats to Keep Helevorn. This proves fruitless, as it comes under attack early in Episode 13. As it falls around the episode midpoint, Amras shows up to rescue his fleeing brother and they ride to Amon Hen, where Amras' people have taken refuge along with many of the Greenelves.

Near the end of E12, Finrod has reached the front. His forces engage with an army set to keep watch on Minas Tirith. It's quickly evident that they are outmatched. As E13 opens, his army is routed and he, with a small group, are separated. They attempt to make their way to Minas Tirith without being detected.

As Himring is surrounded, the assault upon it begins in earnest at the beginning of Episode 12. The details can be determined later, but by the midpoint of E13, the assault is repelled and Maglor has joined Maedhros at Himring.

Around the midpoint of E13, Finrod's followers are caught by enemies in the fens. His fate seems assured when Barahir's men crash into the Orcs and drive them back enough for Finrod to escape. He has an appointment with Andreth later.

Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth comes after a period of discomfort-inducing quiet. Finrod's conversation with Andreth, Maedhros looking out at the foe-clotted plains below him, Caranthir and Amras reaching Amon Hen with what's left of their followers. All of these elements will help in creating the sense of hope and despair that surrounds that duel.



There are many details I haven't mentioned or even thought about, and many may change after further discussion. But it's important to at least have an idea how the fight plays out if we are going to decide where E12 ends and E13 begins. Essentially, my vote is to make E12 a "To Be Continued" sort of episode, ending in the midst of dire and unresolved conflict.

I also intend to accompany this chart with maps showing everyone's position at each stage of the conflict, so stay tuned.
 
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An idea of mine pertaining to the Dagor Bragollach is Huan's part in it - we should actually reference his Doom again this season so it's not isolated from everything else that happens this season, and it makes sense that it will have in-world consequences.

To Sauron and himself, Draugluin is the greatest werewolf, and considering Draugluin's...eager personality, he will want to seek out and fight Huan during the Bragollach. The battle details depend on what we do with the Pass of Aglon, but as soon as Maglor's Gap falls it can be surrounded - and neither its fortification nor the determination of its commander(s) are on the level of Himring. Celegorm and Curufin will withdraw to Nargothrond as we need them to do; maybe partly out of fear, but I also think that Celegorm would want to prevent Huan from facing Draugluin on a front they're losing - Huan doesn't fear death and would be willing to answer Draugluin's challenge, but Celegorm's afraid of losing his dear companion and will command him to retreat with them. Conveniently, this relatively early retreat also explains why Huan doesn't go kick Glaurung's scaly behind when the latters busts through Maglor's Gap :D
 
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Hey, so I finally got some time to put together some maps for the above outline. The locations aren't perfect, obviously, and not all of them reflect concurrent positions, but the important points people need to reach/be at at the critical point of the act the map is depicting. And yes, Aegnor and Angrod disappear because they're dead.

 
Hey, so I finally got some time to put together some maps for the above outline. The locations aren't perfect, obviously, and not all of them reflect concurrent positions, but the important points people need to reach/be at at the critical point of the act the map is depicting. And yes, Aegnor and Angrod disappear because they're dead.


Those maps will be very useful as a baseline when we figure out the Bragollach episodes :) Only thing I noticed is that Curufin and Amras traded places in the last one.
 
Looks good.

For where the Villains are: put one of the three main lieutenants on a separate front attacking various points? I.E., Glaurung attacks the Pass of Aglon (we can put in @Alcarlótë ’s Huan moment), Gothmog attacks Dorthonion, and Boldog Hithlum/Mithrim?
 
Looks good.

For where the Villains are: put one of the three main lieutenants on a separate front attacking various points? I.E., Glaurung attacks the Pass of Aglon (we can put in @Alcarlótë ’s Huan moment), Gothmog attacks Dorthonion, and Boldog Hithlum/Mithrim?

Maybe, though I think Glaurung will probably appear on different fronts. The war lasts for several months, or at least weeks.
 
I would love a scene of Huan fighting a dragon :D But I don't think it's easy to do - the hosts wanted only one dragon in this battle, and neither Glaurung nor Huan can die here. Could it be some form of withdrawal? Huan isn't afraid of danger or death though, and his big withdrawal moment is connected to Draugluin (who is looking to kill Huan) when Celegorm orders Huan to come with him and they flee to Nargothrond; Celegorm wants to protect Huan from his part in the Doom of the Noldor that we're revealing this season. And Glaurung probably shouldn't withdraw in three consecutive battles - he needs to win at least once before Turin's story.

Maybe their fight could be interrupted by circumstances, but it shouldn't feel like teasing the viewers and then denying them the action scene climax they were looking for.
 
I would love a scene of Huan fighting a dragon :D But I don't think it's easy to do - the hosts wanted only one dragon in this battle, and neither Glaurung nor Huan can die here. Could it be some form of withdrawal? Huan isn't afraid of danger or death though, and his big withdrawal moment is connected to Draugluin (who is looking to kill Huan) when Celegorm orders Huan to come with him and they flee to Nargothrond; Celegorm wants to protect Huan from his part in the Doom of the Noldor that we're revealing this season. And Glaurung probably shouldn't withdraw in three consecutive battles - he needs to win at least once before Turin's story.

Maybe their fight could be interrupted by circumstances, but it shouldn't feel like teasing the viewers and then denying them the action scene climax they were looking for.

Yeah, there's a very fine line to walk there, and I think your instincts here are correct. I'd like to see it as long as there is a believable way to handle it that doesn't send the wrong signals to the audience.
 
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