Frame Narrative

MithLuin I think that sounds really interesting. It would be great to have a Lothlorien frame which overlaps the one in the first season. We can refer to Dol Guldur and show Sauron beginning his career as necromancer.
One concern: If we're doing a frame that's primarily about Celeborn and Arwen, we are doing another season with a young woman and an older man. It's not the same as Gilraen and Elrond, obviously, but we will have to come up with several ways to emphasise the differences.

One idea is to have them telling stories to each other, as opposed to Celeborn telling his granddaughter. Another thought: They don't have to be telling stories. They could also be singing. Wouldn't it be wonderful if Celeborn said to Arwen, 'Would you sing the song of the Eglath - the Forsaken?' Or he could sing such a song. She could sing about the meeting of Elwë and Melian, and while we hear that song we see Thingol and Melian in the forest. That could be a good approach to that story.
 
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I feel like it would be weird if it's never even mentioned, especially since we get to know the rest of Elrond's family rather well in season one.
 
At some point the twins could leave Rivendell, and Elrond could explain to Estel that they have a sister and they're going away to visit her.
 
Aragorn lived in Rivendell for 18 years, and had never heard mention that Elrond had a daughter. Arwen's explanation was that she'd been on a trip visiting her grandparents during that time.

So, no, do not mention Elrond's daughter in season 1, that is something to reveal when Arwen is on screen.
 
Is it specifically mentioned that he didn't know Elrond has a daughter at all or that he hadn't met Arwen before and therefore didn't know that she was Elrond's daughter?
 
From 'The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen' in Appendix A of Lord of the Rings:

"Often is it seen," said Aragorn, "that in dangerous days men hide their chief treasure. Yet I marvel at Elrond and your brothers; for though I have dwelt in this house from childhood, I have heard no word of you. How comes it that we have never met before? Surely your father has not kept you locked in his hoard?"

"No," she said, and looked up at the Mountains that rose in the east. "I have dwelt for a time in the land of my mother's kin, in far Lothlórien. I have but lately returned to visit my father again. It is many years since I walked in Imladris."​

So, no, he's never heard that Elrond even had a daughter. We will have opportunities to mention her out of Estel's hearing, though. We could, for instance, have one of the messengers going to and fro in Episodes 12-13 be coming from Lothlórien, and thus greet Elrond in such a way that it is clear the greeting is from not just Galadriel, but also Arwen. A hint, if you will, so that it won't seem like we 'invented' this 3rd child in the next season.
 
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So what is Arwen's story for this season?

I mean, obviously she would be mourning the loss of her mother, and going to live in Lothlórien would be an attempt to 'reconnect' with her mother's people.

Arwen is born in TA 241. She is 111 years younger than her brothers, so they are fully grown adults when she is born.* Celebrían was injured by orcs in 2509 and departed oversea in 2510. Our first frame is set in 2941-2, so it has now been over 400 years since the loss of her mother (Celeborn's daughter). But for an elvish perspective, that might still feel 'recent'? Celeborn has been alive for over 5,000 years, though whether he is a Sindar of Doriath or a Teleri of Alqualondë depends on which version of the story we go with.

The events at Dol Guldor and Erebor are closer to home in Lothlórien than they were in Rivendell, and there is a bit of hopefulness about the renewal of Greenwood the Great after that battle, I would think. Sauron will not send the Nazgul to reoccupy Dol Guldor until the year that Arwen returns home to Rivendell, so we have a bit of a reprieve here. Lothlórien is, of course, the most isolationist community in Middle Earth, so a distrust of the current peace would be likely there. An ominous 'good days never last' wisdom should prevail among the people there, and allow Arwen and Celeborn to discuss that in history. Celeborn is likely to be quite anti-Noldor in his sensibilities, and yet he married Galadriel (a princess of the Noldor, if you will), and watched his daughter marry Elrond (who, forget being part human, was raised by Maglor son of Fëanor!)

I am not trying to paint Celeborn as a racist (that role is reserved for Thingol, of course ;) ), but rather to point out that a lot of this history affects him personally and he likely has a nuanced and involved view of who was at fault for what. Galadriel calls him wise - let's show him as wise rather than showing him getting shown up by his wife all the time! But his is not the calm wisdom of Elrond (who practically embodies Lore) but the hard-won wisdom of living through a lot of shit and still maintaining an even-keel. He is also smart enough to stay out of other peoples' fights, I would think.


*Taking into account both elvish and half-elven maturation rates - by any standard, they are adults!
 
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Yes I think that Celeborn (Teleri or Doriath Sinda) carries a lot of tragedy and sadness: the tragedy of the sundered, forsaken, betrayed Teleri, and the loss of Celebrian - which I agree must feel recent to the family.
 
Do we want to portray the isolation of Lothlorien as being the result of the elves who live there rejecting the world around them or as the world outside the forest rejecting the elves. Obviously, the forest is very well guarded, but I'm also thinking of both Boromir and Gimli's reactions to hearing that they have to enter Lothlorien.

And we can just as easily portray the situation as being both. I guess my larger question is how do we envision the history of Lothlorien, because the history of the place itself will inform the narrative as much as the history of the individual characters.
 
There are a couple of things we could include. We could show the world outside being afraid of the elves - perhaps we are by the borders at some point, seeing someone off, or waiting for someone, and some men are spotted and we are told that some of them fear the elves; or there could even be an orc patrol, showing the viewers the danger the elves are in and making them think of Celebrian.
We could also show the strange time phenomenon that's so special in Lothlorien; the slow passing of time compared to the rest of Middle-earth. Has that always been the case? Did it evolve slowly? Is it a side effect of the grief of the rulers? Or is it connected to the fading of the elves?
 
The strange timelessness of Lothlórien is a direct result of Galadriel's ring Nenya. It's similar to the effect of Elrond's ring on Rivendell, but while Elrond welcomes visitors and set up his place as a haven/refuge.....the Galadhrim have a very suspicious take on visitors and patrol their borders. It has the same effect (no evil can enter either place, because magic), but it has to be the result of different views of the rulers. Elrond is in a hidden valley, and can let his geography protect him - but he's not ultra paranoid about it like Turgon was in Gondolin.

Oh, shoot. The more I think about this, the more I want this as the frame for the *next* season - Lothlorien would be a good setting to deal with Thingol in Doriath, finding out about the Kinslaying and banning Quenya. And that season has the foundation of Nargothrond AND Turgon moving his people from Nevrast to Gondolin.

Frames
Season 1: Estel in Rivendell learns about the Creation of the World and the Powers from Elrond
Season 2: Bilbo returns to the Shire and begins to learn the history of the Elves from a variety of sources
Season 3: Arwen and Celeborn in Lothlórien discuss safety, grief, loss and the sundering of the Noldor and Sindar
Season 4: Frodo and friends have adventures in the Shire and tale hobbit tales of the Elf-friends of old?
Season 5: Estel in Rivendell learns the tale of Beren and Luthien from his mother Gilraen, and meets Arwen newly returned from Lothlórien
Season 6: Thranduil decides it's time for Legolas to learn why battle is terrible, not glorious, and we have the Unnumbered Tears?
Season 7: Aragorn goes adventuring in the Wild and tries to reunite the Dunedain, and every time he is discouraged, his friend Halbarad says, 'You think this is bad?' and tells him tales of Turin.
Season 8: Shire setting of some sort for the tale of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin?
 
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Haakon said:
One concern: If we're doing a frame that's primarily about Celeborn and Arwen, we are doing another season with a young woman and an older man. It's not the same as Gilraen and Elrond, obviously, but we will have to come up with several ways to emphasise the differences.
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I was trying to think through this frame idea today. Another concern we would need to explain is the fact that as full grown adults, both characters would know these stories quite well. What is the reason these stories are being retold? Are Arwen and Celeborn taking acting classes at the local Lothlorien community college and their assignments consist solely of historical monologues? [note: sarcasm] [another note: The Lothlorien CC mascot is, in fact, The Fighting Silver Swans. This will be useful when we get to the Kinslaying.]
 
Alex Long said:
What is the reason these stories are being retold?
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Good question. Perhaps just because they love them? Perhaps because Celebrian is in Valinor? Or because something is happening that is reminding them of the old days...but what could that be?
 
I hesitate to say this should be a rule, but generally speaking I feel like the person listening to the story in the frame should be hearing it for the first time; sort of an audience surrogate-type.

I feel like everybody already being in the know really changes the context of the story in a way that feels wrong.
 
ouzaru said:
I hesitate to say this should be a rule, but generally speaking I feel like the person listening to the story in the frame should be hearing it for the first time; sort of an audience surrogate-type.

I feel like everybody already being in the know really changes the context of the story in a way that feels wrong.
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Well...maybe Arwen hasn't been told the story of the Teleri. She might have had less interest in that, or had trouble keeping the different groups of Teleri elves apart... 'Tell me again... Who were the Laiquendi?'... 'Are they all considered Dark Elves?'...
 
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It is official. This Friday's session will include discussion about the frame for Season 2. I now just have to catch up with all your discussion. I did relisten to part of Session 0.2 which included broad discussuon about the frame. They said it should be from the point of view of 3rd age characters from the LOTR that the viewers will be familiar with, and one anchor story per season. From some of the earlier posts I really liked the idea of passing the torch from Estel to Bilbo which would be his journey in becoming Mad Baggins. Finding out about the elves fits in well which is where he is at after his big adventure. I am aware that the hosts reacted negatively to a Bilbo frame, but that was old Bilbo sitting in the library at Rivendell. This is a different story and one that will not have the capacity for boredom.

My recollection about the desire for the frame to be Sam's was really a way to finish the whole series with Sam going into the west at the very end of all the stories, and we also need a post LOTR setting for when we do LOTR. I feel as if the frame should continue in its own time line. I think a lot will be lost by jumping around from one time to another, and then in later seasons having the frame jump to an earlier time may be confusing. I also think the frame should keep to material that is outside of the published novels, but intertwining is good and clever.

One thing that I don't think was said outright in the Outlines session 1.20 was that this is the year of the assault on Dol Guldor. It would be cool if Gilraen had convinced Elrond that due to the short lifespan of humans it was important to do things now rather than at elvish timeframe, and that this was the deciding moment when Elrond was inspired to counsel the attack to the White Council. That would be so cool if it became known later down tyhe track that Gilraen was the impetus for the preemptive strike on Dol Guldor. As I said I did not hear that said outright but it may have been and I missed it.
 
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