Timdalf
Active Member
Prof Corey summed up the Orc Problem at the beginning of Session 182 by quoting two statements in Tolkien about the nature of evil in Middle-earth that appear to cause a contradiction in his ever-developing legendarium. Talking about the superficial comment by some (who obviously have not read the work) that all things are black and white in LotR. This, Prof Corey notes is ironic, because Tolkien, never got the Orcs to fit into the overall "landscape" of his world. On the one hand Tolkien implies at one point, that if they were Elves corrupted by Morgoth, then what is their eternal destiny? If they are children of Iluvatar, however badly corrupted, then it is not right to treat them as they are in LotR, as merely to be destroyed in a game of scoring points by the number of them killed. It is not really possible for Morgoth to so overrule the intent of Iluvatar and create beings of no free will, mere constructs of Morgoth's evil, whom it is right to annihilate, the more the better. They were originally thought of in the "Book of Lost Tales" as not really living beings. But then in LotR he has Elrond say, "Nothing was evil in the beginning" and further Frodo says, "Evil cannot create, it can only mar." Which means apparently that Tolkien has to change the origin and nature of the Orcs. And this creates the ontological-theological problem of how to treat the Orcs if they were originally created by Iluvatar and could not be by Morgoth.
However, I want to suggest two simple implied (in my mind) and obvious emendations to these two statements by characters (technically not by Tolkien himself, please note). They should read, "Nothing created by Iluvatar was evil in the beginning." and "Evil cannot create life, it can only mar it." With these two clarifications I think we have Tolkien's real point and nothing in conflict with Orcs as non-living, non-Iluvator manufactures of Morgoth (and perhaps Sauron?). Such theological-ontological precision would not be appropriate to either character. Frodo is simply a Hobbit, and Elrond is not an omniscient Elf. They are not addressing an academic symposium on the cosmology of Middle-earth. They are speaking somewhat spontaneously in a rather informal context.
There is thus not really an Orc Problem. Orcs can remain soulless mechanisms and agents of evil who are nothing but evil. If Tolkien changed his mind about them and tried to make them corrupted Elves, this is another case of him overthinking himself like his misguided attempt to reconcile his mythic cosmology with modern astronomy. His usual gift for retcon failed him on these points. Myth is myth and should not be restricted to modern literal science any more than fantasy and its fantastic bestiary or novel species should. It must operate on an every day level of reality, but not be forced to live within modern non-fiction criteria. It is not non-fiction, after all!
And in the end, even if the Orcs are corrupted Elves, if they then basically cooperate with that corruption wholeheartedly and become stubbornly and unrepentantly evil, then there should be no qualms about ending their existence any more than Christian theology is rightly willing to consign fallen angels, who being eternal beings have made the eternal choice for evil, and thus need to be confined to Hell... or more accurately have chosen to confine themselves to the Hell they so desire. That is the world they have collectively created and they fully deserve to share it with those of like kind. Free will has it consequences. As some have perceptibly noted, Hell is not a punishment imposed from without, but rather the chosen fulfillment of what is within, the River of the Fire of God's love is a searing hellish heat to those who prefer to do evil and a warming light to those who seek to make themselves like unto it by cooperating with Grace. This goes for both Angels and men...
So perhaps the Orc Problem is a false one, albeit self-imposed by Tolkien himself.
However, I want to suggest two simple implied (in my mind) and obvious emendations to these two statements by characters (technically not by Tolkien himself, please note). They should read, "Nothing created by Iluvatar was evil in the beginning." and "Evil cannot create life, it can only mar it." With these two clarifications I think we have Tolkien's real point and nothing in conflict with Orcs as non-living, non-Iluvator manufactures of Morgoth (and perhaps Sauron?). Such theological-ontological precision would not be appropriate to either character. Frodo is simply a Hobbit, and Elrond is not an omniscient Elf. They are not addressing an academic symposium on the cosmology of Middle-earth. They are speaking somewhat spontaneously in a rather informal context.
There is thus not really an Orc Problem. Orcs can remain soulless mechanisms and agents of evil who are nothing but evil. If Tolkien changed his mind about them and tried to make them corrupted Elves, this is another case of him overthinking himself like his misguided attempt to reconcile his mythic cosmology with modern astronomy. His usual gift for retcon failed him on these points. Myth is myth and should not be restricted to modern literal science any more than fantasy and its fantastic bestiary or novel species should. It must operate on an every day level of reality, but not be forced to live within modern non-fiction criteria. It is not non-fiction, after all!
And in the end, even if the Orcs are corrupted Elves, if they then basically cooperate with that corruption wholeheartedly and become stubbornly and unrepentantly evil, then there should be no qualms about ending their existence any more than Christian theology is rightly willing to consign fallen angels, who being eternal beings have made the eternal choice for evil, and thus need to be confined to Hell... or more accurately have chosen to confine themselves to the Hell they so desire. That is the world they have collectively created and they fully deserve to share it with those of like kind. Free will has it consequences. As some have perceptibly noted, Hell is not a punishment imposed from without, but rather the chosen fulfillment of what is within, the River of the Fire of God's love is a searing hellish heat to those who prefer to do evil and a warming light to those who seek to make themselves like unto it by cooperating with Grace. This goes for both Angels and men...
So perhaps the Orc Problem is a false one, albeit self-imposed by Tolkien himself.
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