The Stockade

Is this what you're looking for? I know, it's not exactly bluffs, there, but it's got something, I think. It's in Montenegro. View attachment 3712
Very nice looking - but how far ist that hill in the background? Good to launch an attack from there onto the plain. And the landscape seems a bit dry - no high vegetation on those hills behind.

Now I know what wrong with that one - planks - not a Neoltihic thing! No tools to make planks yet! It would have take them "ages" to make even one!
 
While I agree that historical reality is something we should keep an eye on, one would be hard-pressed to find a historical culture of Neolithic homestead farmers who start to coalesce into a single people in response to encounters with flying, supernatural monsters. To say nothing of the rumors of Orcs, or even the mysterious and (lightly) super-powered Elves.

Doesn't mean we have to throw historical cultures out the window, but we can certainly take a bit of artistic license.

So, what the story that has been decided upon calls for is a hall or longhouse that can _hold_ somewhere around 700-900 people in a dire emergency, or _house_ about 100-200 people for a week or two.

The Iriquois had structures that if scaled up.could certainly fill the bill

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Now I know what wrong with that one - planks - not a Neoltihic thing! No tools to make planks yet! It would have take them "ages" to make even one!
 
Very nice looking - but how far ist that hill in the background? Good to launch an attack from there onto the plain. And the landscape seems a bit dry - no high vegetation on those hills behind.


Now I know what wrong with that one - planks - not a Neoltihic thing! No tools to make planks yet! It would have take them "ages" to make even one!
Yeah well there are also houses in the background, the area is clearly cultivated, but a decade or so of sheep munching away at the grass would perhaps have a similar effect (minus the houses). The hills are probably too far away for an attack, in my opinion, but I could be wrong.
 
Now I know what wrong with that one - planks - not a Neoltihic thing! No tools to make planks yet! It would have take them "ages" to make even one!

If you mean the Scandinavian longhouse, I agree. The technology just wasn't there.

As to your questions about the second Native American longhouse (I _think_ it is based primarily on one from the Sussquehannocks), that is likely to be woven mats of grasses or reeds rather than skins (EDIT: On closure inspection, it is definitely tree bark). The northeastern tribes didn't have quite as much access to large hides as the plains tribes.
 
If you mean the Scandinavian longhouse, I agree. The technology just wasn't there.

As to your questions about the second Native American longhouse (I _think_ it is based primarily on one from the Sussquehannocks), that is likely to be woven mats of grasses or reeds rather than skins (EDIT: On closure inspection, it is definitely tree bark). The northeastern tribes didn't have quite as much access to large hides as the plains tribes.

Would it last 12 years? A Neolithic longhouse lasted around 30 years.
 
Would it last 12 years? A Neolithic longhouse lasted around 30 years.

Because of the bark coverings, they lasted at least a decade, but not much longer than that. Substituting a more durable outer shell would make them last longer as the framework would last quite a long time.

In the Pacific Northwest, tribes made longhouse from split logs or split log planks that were far more durable.
 
I definitely like that elevated flat space above the rivers, Haakon! I might prefer more dramatic bluffs, but this is definitely better than the floodplains I keep finding at river junctions.

Would a horseshoe or wedge-form for the stockade make some sense or not?Would a straighth "wall" be really better or possibly weaker? Especially if one counts in the possibility of either inner secondory palisades and corridors or outer artificial dikes...

Good questions! A straight design would require less work, and so may be a natural starting point for a people who have not done this before in living memory. After all, if the project remains unfinished and does not span river-to-river, it will be useless. But a horseshoe or wedge shape can be considered as well, and they do have time to build these. We show the majority of the construction occur over a 2 year time span.

I am definitely picturing a ditch dug out in front of the walls, as well as the ability to climb up onto an interior platform to look out and defend the wall. The wall will not have an open space for the gate like a hill fort, but will have a gate that can be opened/closed (and defended from above).

on the other hand we're dealing with an an enemy who may have trolls...

Or did we definitely decide:no trolls at all for Gothmog, orcs only?

Boldog's army consists of orcs only; no trolls. Trolls turn to stone in sunlight, so it is not reasonable to think that they have traveled all the way from Angband to the Ascar-Gelion Stockade without being exposed to sunlight. The orcs dislike sunlight, so they can travel/fight at night, burn fires to create smoke, and rest/hide under cover during the day. The trolls need to be able to reliably get underground each day.

The Haladin are aware of flying vampires; Haldad killing one is the impetus for building the hall and stockade in the first place.

The reason Boldog has taken an interest in attacking these people is because Gothmog knows Sauron spent time among them, and he wants to smash Sauron's experiment - so he sends Boldog to do so. The reason Sauron took interest was because. . .they killed a vampire of his.
 
I definitely like that elevated flat space above the rivers, Haakon! I might prefer more dramatic bluffs, but this is definitely better than the floodplains I keep finding at river junctions.



Good questions! A straight design would require less work, and so may be a natural starting point for a people who have not done this before in living memory. After all, if the project remains unfinished and does not span river-to-river, it will be useless. But a horseshoe or wedge shape can be considered as well, and they do have time to build these. We show the majority of the construction occur over a 2 year time span.

I am definitely picturing a ditch dug out in front of the walls, as well as the ability to climb up onto an interior platform to look out and defend the wall. The wall will not have an open space for the gate like a hill fort, but will have a gate that can be opened/closed (and defended from above).



Boldog's army consists of orcs only; no trolls. Trolls turn to stone in sunlight, so it is not reasonable to think that they have traveled all the way from Angband to the Ascar-Gelion Stockade without being exposed to sunlight. The orcs dislike sunlight, so they can travel/fight at night, burn fires to create smoke, and rest/hide under cover during the day. The trolls need to be able to reliably get underground each day.

The Haladin are aware of flying vampires; Haldad killing one is the impetus for building the hall and stockade in the first place.

The reason Boldog has taken an interest in attacking these people is because Gothmog knows Sauron spent time among them, and he wants to smash Sauron's experiment - so he sends Boldog to do so. The reason Sauron took interest was because. . .they killed a vampire of his.

It's also important to remember that this is not a large army Boldog is in command of here, but a small, mobile warband. Any large amount of soldiery issuing from Angband would have been detected. So we are talking about a few hundred Orcs at most. Enough to threaten a small, relatively unarmed group like our Haladin, but not enough to threaten the Elves.
 
I definitely like that elevated flat space above the rivers, Haakon! I might prefer more dramatic bluffs, but this is definitely better than the floodplains I keep finding at river junctions.

Imho the problem with bluff at such a place is, that will be either eroded away or overgrown fairy quickly. Rivers have currents which go the other way at such a place and they carry sand and debris which tend accumulate at such a place. The bluffs at the sea shore come from the sea eroding the ground with waves and tides working "againts" the shore "eating it away" constantly.
If you would like clear bluffs it would have been a estuary which has been created relatively recently due to one of the rivers (or boths) changing its course imho. But such an area would be a little unsafe to film on, as the ground has not yet settled and nobody can say how stable the current situation is as yet.

Good questions! A straight design would require less work, and so may be a natural starting point for a people who have not done this before in living memory. After all, if the project remains unfinished and does not span river-to-river, it will be useless. But a horseshoe or wedge shape can be considered as well, and they do have time to build these. We show the majority of the construction occur over a 2 year time span.

Some of them might seen other tribes doing it. At the triangle oppidumI have linkted to above the fortification was the shape of a soft curve. There the river bank is quite high at the tip but overgrown with trees, like in Haakon's example. The Haladin could have cleared the bank of course, but nobody will allow us to this for filming purposes. Easier it would be to create such a location on same desolate degraded area.

I am definitely picturing a ditch dug out in front of the walls, as well as the ability to climb up onto an interior platform to look out and defend the wall. The wall will not have an open space for the gate like a hill fort, but will have a gate that can be opened/closed (and defended from above).

1624379337939.png 1624379405582.png
1624379520621.png 1624379734681.png Some ideas.

There is also the possibility of a gate between two intelocking parts of the wall, but I would have to search for such an arrangement.
 
The Snake River in the Pacific Northwest cuts through some pretty rough terrain, often carving the exact sort of bluffs we're looking for. Haven't found the exact thing at a confluence yet, but I found this where the Snake meets the Salmon.

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Yes, I am counting on the river junction having a shore of eroded dirt and debris upstream of the river confluence. The Haladin will need some flat ground to stand on to be able to launch their rafts at the end. Granted, this is only suggested by a dark smudge on the sketch.

At the very least, the banks need to be rather difficult to climb up and down. It should not be the case that people are going back and forth to fetch water from the river constantly, because that would raise questions as to why the orcs have not attacked from that side during the siege. But if they are a bit overgrown, that is not a problem. It just might be nicer visually to have something that looks a bit more dramatic.
 
I am definitely picturing a ditch dug out in front of the walls, as well as the ability to climb up onto an interior platform to look out and defend the wall. The wall will not have an open space for the gate like a hill fort, but will have a gate that can be opened/closed (and defended from above).
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Switzerland - regrettably new delopment on the sandbank below but very nice buffs - marked with dark yellow dots on the map below:

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Switzerland - regrettably new delopment on the sandbank below but very nice buffs - marked with dark yellow dots on the map below:

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That looks pretty close to what we need. I'll need to see if I can get Google Earth to shave the trees off for me when I get home.

Obviously, I doubt we'd be able to clear cut the area and convince the nearby residents to let us demolish their buildings, but since the technology exists to digitally scan what we want and drop it into a scene, I'd say it looks pretty good.

One of the problems with scouting in Europe is that good locations for settlements are rarely unsettled.
 
Here is the confluence of the Pecos and Rio Grande Rivers at Seminole Canyon Historic State Park:

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I don't think we need bluffs *this* dramatic, but you can definitely see how it would be difficult to reach anything on top of that cliff from the water's edge!
 
Here is the confluence of the Pecos and Rio Grande Rivers at Seminole Canyon Historic State Park:

View attachment 3735

I don't think we need bluffs *this* dramatic, but you can definitely see how it would be difficult to reach anything on top of that cliff from the water's edge!

It seems like this tends to happen when a river has been traveling the same course for a _very_ long time. Perhaps if it were caught sometime earlier than when we are observing these rivers, the height would be less intense.
 
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