How Many People in the Council Had Never Seen a Hobbit?

R

Rachel Port

Well-Known Member
And how many more only knew Bilbo?

Elrond says, after all the stories have been told, "Of the tales that we have heard this day the tale of Frodo was most strange to me. I have known few hobbits, save Bilbo here; and it seems to me that he is perhaps not so alone and singular as I had thought him."

I have always thought that Elrond as well as Gandalf went into the Council with the end already in his mind. But going through the whole Council taking the time we are taking in this class I had my own eye-opener: Elrond has only just met Frodo. Frodo was unconscious while Elrond was treating him, and the night before, at the feast, they do not talk, and though Elrond takes him to Bilbo in the Hall of Fire, they do not have any real conversation together. Elrond needs the Council so he can observe Frodo closely. He has heard the story of the journey from Aragorn and the other hobbits, but he has not heard it from Frodo. He watches Frodo listening to others, interrupting them, telling his story, dealing with questions, and finally struggling to volunteer to take the Ring. By then he has made up his mind. He knew Gandalf believed it was so, but had no basis to form his own opinion.

So Frodo was Elrond's eye-opener. And Bilbo and Frodo, both their mere existence and all the trials they have been through, were the real eye-openers fro everybody else. I completely agree with Gandalf.
 
The only person in the Council who had never seen a Hobbit, was possibly Boromir.

The Elves of Rivendell all knew Bilbo. Galdor, travelling from the Havens to Rivendell probably went through The Shire, and/or Bree. Gimli probably met Bilbo when Bilbo visited Erebor, after leaving Bag End. Legolas probably met Bilbo when Bilbo guested with the Wood Elves after the Battle of the Five Armies. He also probably had met Gollum.

Even Boromir might well have seen Hobbits, as it is quite likely that he passed through The Shire and/or Bree on his quest for Imladris.

All in all, it is quite possible that everyone at the Council had seen a Hobbit before. For some of them, that might only have been Bilbo.
 
But those were not the only people at the Council. Dwarves and elves passing through the Shire may have seen hobbits, but think they are just dull farmers, and don't interact with them - think what Thorin says to Gandalf when he suggests taking a hobbit along to the Lonely Mountain. The elves of Rivendell of course know Bilbo. Remember how Gildor tells Frodo he has seen him with Bilbo before without being seen. That's my point. The hobbits sent archers to some of the early wars when there was still a king in the north, so some of the older elves might have seen them, but not for a long time, even for elves.
 
H, i Rachel,

Who else do you think was at the Council? We are told who was at the Council. Elrond, Glorfindel, Gloin, Aragorn, Gimli,. 'several other counsellors of Elrond's household, of whom Erestor was the chief', Galdor, Legolas, Boromir, Gandalf, Bilbo, Frodo and Sam. That's it. No one else was there.

We don't know for sure, but there is a very good chance that all of them 'had seen a Hobbit before'. Most of them knew Bilbo. The others had probably travelled through The Shire or Bree and seen Hobbits there.

Of course, having seen Hobbits before does not mean that they know Hobbits well, or might not have prejudiced impressions of them. So, Bilbo and Frodo could certainly have surprised them at the Council.

I totally agree with you that Bilbo and Frodo were 'eye-openers' to many at the Council. But the question you asked was, 'How many people in the Council had never seen a Hobbit?' My answer is that possibly none had never seen a Hobbit.
 
Rachel
Elrond's line at the council is most confusing on this subject "I have know few hobbits, save Bilbo here; and it seems to me that he is perhaps not so alone and singular as I had though him." I think this indicates Elrond has met other hobbits but it is unclear. He has of course spent some time with Sam, Pippen and Merry.
Gloin has certainly met many hobbits as he was in the shire at the start of the Hobbit.
As others have said, Galdor and Boromir have probably seen hobbits but have probably had few interactions with them.
Aragorn has definitely known hobbits prior to meeting Frodo's party and knows Frodo's party well.
This leaves the Elves of Rivendell. Glorfindel spent time with Frodo's party on the road so he would have a feel for Frodo and them. It is unclear whether any of the rest would.
Legolas and Gimli probably not

Edit to the above: This was a response to who knew a hobbit other than Bilbo
 
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Hi Longtimer,

You are right that Legolas and Gimli might not have seen Hobbits before they got to Rivendell, however they well could have.

When Bilbo left Bag End at the start of TLOTR he went to visit Eriador. It is quite possible (even likely) that Gimli met Bilbo then.

Bilbo travelled with the Mirkwood Elves back from The Lonely Mountain to the fringes of Mirkwood. That is when The Elven-king named him 'elf-friend'. It is possible that Legolas had accompanied his father and the host of Elves to the Battle of the Five Armies, and had met Bilbo there, or on the journey back to Mirkwood. Of course, it is possible that Legolas remained behind to look after the home-front while Thranduil led the host of Elves to Erebor. I would say that Legolas was the least likely of the Council participants to have previously encountered Hobbits, were it not for the fact that he almost certainly had some lengthy experience with Gollum, who, after all, was a Hobbit.
 
Flammifer I was not precise I should have said who knew a hobbit other than Bilbo. Totally agree that Gimli and Legolas would know Bilbo the silly hobbit who started it all :)
I am adding an edit note to my previous post
 
thinking on the fact that Elrond was treating an unconscious Frodo (though there is the implication that Frodo was talking in his delirium), it seems to me that Elrond probably got to observe Sam more closely than any of the others. I expect he fully expected that Sam would attend the Council. There’s something of both Glorfindel and Beleg in Sam.
 
Longtimer said:
Elrond's line at the council is most confusing on this subject "I have know few hobbits, save Bilbo here; and it seems to me that he is perhaps not so alone and singular as I had though him." I think this indicates Elrond has met other hobbits but it is unclear. He has of course spent some time with Sam, Pippen and Merry.
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I have always thought Elrond meant in earlier centuries, perhaps even before they crossed the River into the Shire. I would guess that in the past couple of centuries Bilbo is the only hobbit he has gotten to know. He goes on at the meeting to talk of how long it's been since he travelled the western roads.

Longtimer said:
Glorfindel spent time with Frodo's party on the road so he would have a feel for Frodo and them. It is unclear whether any of the rest would.
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Glorfindel has dealt with Sam, Merry, and Pippin in an emergency, so yes, he has a feel for that. Frodo was in process of being wraithified, so he didn't actually get a feel for much more than how long Frodo endured that wound, which was important info, granted. But that's different from hearing Frodo tell his story.

Flammifer said:
I would say that Legolas was the least likely of the Council participants to have previously encountered Hobbits, were it not for the fact that he almost certainly had some lengthy experience with Gollum, who, after all, was a Hobbit.
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Oh, really! Yes, you get a real feel for life in the Shire from spending time with Gollum. Though perhaps any hobbit who took a Ring of power from his friend by murdering him, ending up after a few years under a mountain in a deep cave, where he spent a few hundred years - perhaps any hobbit under those circumstances would turn out like Gollum. Thank goodness we'll never find out. And Gollum is hardly an advertisement for the fitness of hobbits to bear the One Ring.

Longtimer said:
Gloin has certainly met many hobbits as he was in the shire at the start of the Hobbit.
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I just reread The Hobbit. I think the dwarves passed through the Shire to get to Bag End, but I wouldn't call that meeting hobbits. Gloin after all thought Bilbo looked more like a grocer than a burglar. They were camping that trip. I do think it's possible that some dwarves who visited Bilbo during the years between The Hobbit and the Long Expected Party may actually have interacted with some hobbits at least commercially.

Kate Neville said:
thinking on the fact that Elrond was treating an unconscious Frodo (though there is the implication that Frodo was talking in his delirium), it seems to me that Elrond probably got to observe Sam more closely than any of the others. I expect he fully expected that Sam would attend the Council. There’s something of both Glorfindel and Beleg in Sam.
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Yes. Frodo's talk in his delirium was probably fragmented. He got to observe Sam's fitness to accompany Frodo, should Frodo survive and be chosen. My guess is that he got much of the story of the journey from the Shire from Merry and Pippin as well, or course, as from Aragorn.

The only person at the Council who has gotten a sense of what hobbits are like is still Gandalf. He first saw them endure hardship during the Long Winter, and has known several generations of some hobbit families. I think Elrond knows Bilbo well, but not hobbits in their natural habitats.
 
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I tried last night to change the title to How Many Poeple in the Council Had Never Known a Hobbit - but apparently that didn't work.
 
We also know that Gandalf has been arranging for select Hobbits to go off on adventures for quite some time (centuries?)
It seems unlikely that he wouldn't have directed (or taken) any of them to Rivendell.
So, I think it more likely than not that Elrond and his household have had dealings with other adventurous Hobbits from the Shire in the past, but none over the same timescale or with the same depth of relationship as Bilbo, and it seems unlikely to have been in a Shire-like setting.
 
Does he? I thought that was one possible backstory in some of the drafts. It never has really seemed like it to me.
 
Rachel Port said:
Does he? I thought that was one possible backstory in some of the drafts. It never has really seemed like it to me.
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Hi Rachel,

It's not a backstory in some of the drafts. It is in The Hobbit. Bilbo says to Gandalf, "Dear me! Not the Gandalf who was responsible for so many quiet lads and lasses going off into the Blue for mad adventures, anything from climbing trees to stowing away aboard the ships that sail to the Other Side? Bless me, life used to be quite inter -- I mean, you used to upset things badly in these parts once upon a time."
 
Flammifer said:
Hi Rachel,

It's not a backstory in some of the drafts. It is in The Hobbit. Bilbo says to Gandalf, "Dear me! Not the Gandalf who was responsible for so many quiet lads and lasses going off into the Blue for mad adventures, anything from climbing trees to stowing away aboard the ships that sail to the Other Side? Bless me, life used to be quite inter -- I mean, you used to upset things badly in these parts once upon a time."
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Which edition is that? Mine words it a little differently.
Not the Gandalf who was responsible for so many quiet lads and lasses going off into the Blue for mad adventures? Anything from climbing trees to visiting elves—or sailing in ships, sailing to other shores!

Though, still explicitly mentioning elves, of course.
 
Hi JJ48,

My quote is from the first authorized paperback edition of The Hobbit to be published in the USA, by Ballantine Books. Second printing from 1965.

Which edition is your quote from?

I wonder when the text changed, who changed it, and why?
 
I'm using the Kindle eBook, which was based on the HarperCollins 1995 Fifth Edition.
 
Flammifer, your version doesn't mention elveso that's an interesting difference. But meeting elves can be done in the Shire, or the Havens if they are taking ship. I don't know why Rivendell would have been on any itinerary, since there's not much to see in between. Adventures for hobbits, who are so parochial would involve meeting other people. Maybe Bree.

But I guess I think of that as a different sort of Gandalf. I wonder if that's where the early drafts where Trotter was Peregrin come from. That's what I associated the adventures with. I think of Gandalf's association with the Shire in terms of generations, not centuries.
 
Listening through Corey's book (Exploring J.R.R. Tolkien's The Hobbit) again, he mentioned three phases of The Hobbit. First, was the initial writing. Second, was the major revision to bring it in line with The Lord of the Rings. Third, was a series of minor changes to bring it more and more in line with the greater legendarium. I'm guessing, then, that the change happened to remove the reference to hobbits stowing away on ships sailing to Valinor, as that would be a little too silly when placed in the larger story.
 
Rachel Port said:
Gollum is hardly an advertisement for the fitness of hobbits to bear the One Ring
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Actually, I think he is, to some extent at least; Gollum's lack of fading is remarked upon (by Gandalf, somewhere) as evidence that Hobbits are resistant to this effect of the Ring.
 
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