Unmasked?

[No One in Particular]

Ooh, now there's a small detail I never noticed.

I think I always took "the Nine he had gathered to himself" as metaphorical: he's gathered the Nazgul; the Nazgul wear the Rings. But Galadriel is a bit more explicit: the Nine are in the hands of Sauron: the Nazgul do NOT wear them. I guess.

I did also. Growing up it never occurred to me that the Nazgul did not actually wear their rings, and I disagreed with all who said that when I later discovered the notion. My "eye-opener" was when I realized that if the Witch King had been in posession of his ring when he was destroyed at The Pelennor, Gandalf would have torn his toenails off trying to get down to the battlefield to make disposition of it before some hapless Rohirrim picked it up out of curiosity or greed and become ensnared. That's too important, it would have been mentioned.

 

[Beech27]

Well, Elrond does state that the Nazgûl “keep” their rings, whatever contradiction is offered by Gandalf and Galadriel. Frankly this never bothered me. Why should they know for certain? And anyway, I find the physical evidence — or lack — more compelling. As you say, there is no indication that a great ring remains on the field after the Witch King was destroyed, nor does Frodo seem to perceive any on Weathertop.

We do have Tolkien’s statement in his letters, some commentary by Christopher in HOME, and an almost identical sentiment expressed in Unfinished Tales, that Sauron held the nine rings, however canonical one wants to consider those sources. (For myself, I think the letters are useful, if not gospel. Hammond and Scull respond to Ordway’s claims regarding them, here, suggesting that we have virtually everything pertinent to Middle-earth lore, and nothing there was excised or compromised regarding that topic: https://wayneandchristina.wordpress.com/2021/05/25/tolkiens-modern-reading/)

 

[Flammifer]

What, you mean their similarities in that they both speak, both can have physical effect, and both can be affected by weapons (at least some)? And ignoring, apparently, as a minor exception the fact that one has a form that can be seen and the other has none? These are superficial similarities, at best, and tell us nothing of the actual nature of either creature. These traits apply also to Men, Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits, Orcs, Wizards, Dragons, and giant spiders. Can we then use what we know of their natures and apply them to Ringwraiths, as well?

And I can't help but feel we're getting a bit off-track here. You keep saying you don't think it's obvious to the reader that the Nazgul were stripped of power and had to return to Sauron to get it back (despite the text saying something very much to that effect). How, then, do you think a first-time reader would understand the ford and the subsequent search reports?

I think the first time reader would think that the Black Riders had lost their horses, lost their cloaks, were stranded in hostile territory, with Elves around who could see them even though they were invisible to others, , they were scattered and didn't know how to join up again. They had failed in their mission. The decision to return to Mordor to re-group was probably not a collective decision, since they were scattered and could not communicate with one another. Each had to decide what to do on his own. None of them decided to do anything other than return. They were probably not disembodied spirits (how fast could disembodied spirits get back to Mordor? Instantaneously? How do disembodied spirits travel? Fly? Drift? Move at all?) They had to walk. That's why it took them over a month to get back to Mordor, and why, when the Company left Rivendell, two months after arriving, there were no spies observing the departure. There just had not been enough time between the Nazgul getting the report back to Mordor and the ability to get new spies out to Rivendell.

Use some common logic. Having the Nazgul turn into disembodied spirits just stacks problems and questions on top of one another. How do disembodied spirits travel? If they can just think themselves somewhere, then there would be plenty of time for Mordor spies to infest the environs of Rivendell before the company sets out. If they cannot move at all (because, hey, disembodied) then how does Mordor learn what has happened and have wargs lined up in Hollin? How do the Nazgul turn up mounted on flying beasts over the Anduin? Most logical solution is they had to walk back to Mordor, which takes time, so Mordor did not learn what happened fast enough to get their spies in position as quickly as they would have liked. If they walked, then, logically, not disembodied.

Every time I try to think through the implications of The Supposition, it just raises more and more issues and problems than it solves.

 

[JJ48]

Use some common logic. Having the Nazgul turn into disembodied spirits just stacks problems and questions on top of one another. How do disembodied spirits travel? If they can just think themselves somewhere, then there would be plenty of time for Mordor spies to infest the environs of Rivendell before the company sets out. If they cannot move at all (because, hey, disembodied) then how does Mordor learn what has happened and have wargs lined up in Hollin?

So, you've demonstrated that there are problems if they move instantly or if they don't move at all. This remains a true problem regardless of whether they are corporeal or not, and is solved by having them move at a finite speed regardless of whether they are corporeal or not. I don't see that this line of reasoning really helps us get anywhere.

Furthermore, I guess I can only speak for myself, but I don't think I've ever claimed that they were pure spirit or disembodied; just that they're less than fully corporeal. Your argument sounds less like common logic, and more an attack on strawmen.

 

[Anthony Lawther]

I agree with you here completely. The subdistinctions of the Ainur in rank do not change any of their nature's mechanics. If they are called "Maiar" or "people of the Valar" is just a terminology question, not any of real essence imho. And Ainur (named "Valar" and "people of the Valar") are part of TLOTR.

The distinction between Maiar and Valar isn't the issue here.

Where in TLotR is it made known that those of the Ainur that entered Arda wear their physical substance like clothes, rather than them being an essential part of their being? Without that knowledge questions of whether Sauron needs to clothe their nothingness may not even occur to a reader.

The term Wraith certainly draws a connection with spirits, but as we see them interacting with physical objects it might be reasonable to draw a parallel with poltergeists. I'm not aware of any folklore that suggests poltergeists need a boost from some other being to interact with the physical realm.

Until someone points out something in text to unambiguously support the 'discarnate' version of Ringwraiths, then it must remain a questionable theory no matter who or how many support it. Every interaction with the Nazgul that I've found in the text involves some ability to manipulate the physical realm, suggesting an inherently incarnate form (their natural state as Men) that has been modified (to become invisible and immortal).

The text does explain that they don't perceive the world as mortals do, and if they have been scattered and unhorsed they might have no option but to return to a known reference point to start again. Otherwise they would be like a group of mortals scattered in a blizzard: groping around unseeing, and potentially never regrouping.
The unmasking, then is the element that needs explanation, but JRRT seems to have felt that only the effect was important for us to know, not the method.

While it is interesting that a theory has been proposed that has been received well, I sincerely hope that it does not make it's way into further discussions as one of those things 'we know'.

 

[JJ48]

The text does explain that they don't perceive the world as mortals do, and if they have been scattered and unhorsed they might have no option but to return to a known reference point to start again. Otherwise they would be like a group of mortals scattered in a blizzard: groping around unseeing, and potentially never regrouping.

And all the way down in Mordor is the nearest rallying point they can reach? Dol Guldur, at least, seems a more convenient meeting place, being about half the distance yet still a friendly stronghold. I think we're forgetting, too, that the Nazgul can certainly see one another (at any rate, Frodo could see them when he put on the Ring, and they could see him, too) as well as hear one another. The Flood certainly scattered them, but seeing how close together the horses' bodies were, I find it nigh inconceivable that the Ringwraiths were so separated that their only option was starting over completely from Mordor.

 

[Anthony Lawther]

And all the way down in Mordor is the nearest rallying point they can reach? Dol Guldur, at least, seems a more convenient meeting place, being about half the distance yet still a friendly stronghold. I think we're forgetting, too, that the Nazgul can certainly see one another (at any rate, Frodo could see them when he put on the Ring, and they could see him, too) as well as hear one another. The Flood certainly scattered them, but seeing how close together the horses' bodies were, I find it nigh inconceivable that the Ringwraiths were so separated that their only option was starting over completely from Mordor.

And Sauron found it inconceivable that anyone that came into possession of the One, that had sufficient power to wield it, would choose to do otherwise.

My point is that just because we can't see the sense in it, doesn't mean there is no sense to it, nor does it require elaborate explanations.

 

[Odola]

And all the way down in Mordor is the nearest rallying point they can reach? Dol Guldur, at least, seems a more convenient meeting place, being about half the distance yet still a friendly stronghold. I think we're forgetting, too, that the Nazgul can certainly see one another (at any rate, Frodo could see them when he put on the Ring, and they could see him, too) as well as hear one another. The Flood certainly scattered them, but seeing how close together the horses' bodies were, I find it nigh inconceivable that the Ringwraiths were so separated that their only option was starting over completely from Mordor.

If they do need Sauron and Sauron is currently in Mordor then Mordor it is imho.

 

[Flammifer]

This thread has led me to consider a new method of analysis to determine how likely a speculation or supposition is.

Someone has probably pointed out this method before, but for now, I am going to call it 'Flammifer's test':

"If a supposition creates more new issues and problems than it solves, then it is not a good supposition."

In this case, The Supposition tries to solve what JRRT means when he has Gandalf say that he hopes the Nazgul, "were scattered, and have been obliged to return as best they could to their Master in Mordor, empty and shapeless."

No one in this thread has yet pointed out that this is an expression of hope by Gandalf, rather than an expression of fact. (Which, I think, is relevant.) Still, The Supposition, is trying to solve the problem of what is meant by obliged, empty, and shapeless.

At first glance The Supposition offers an interesting explanation of these words. However, with further thought, The Supposition raises more and more issues and problems:

How is Sauron's 'boost' removed from the Nazgul in the flood? If removed by the power of Gandalf and/or Elrond, why are there not other instances of using this to defeat the Nazgul? How does Sauron 'boost' corporality? Does he do this in other instances? Why not? If the 'boost' is removed in the flood, how do in-corporeal Nazgul travel back to Mordor? How can incorporeal beings travel at all? If they can travel instantly or swiftly, why no spies near Rivendell when the Company sets out? If they cannot travel, how do they come to appear again on winged beasts? If they can travel incorporeally, why do they need winged beasts at all? For most 'black breath' missions in the war, corporality would seem unnecessary?

I'm sure there are other issues and problems which arise under the conditions of The Supposition. So, I propose that The Supposition fails the rule of 'Flammifer's test'.

What do you think of the rule? (I'm sure that it already exists, and has a name. Does anyone know what that might be? It is similar, though perhaps not quite the same, as Occam's razor?)

Do you think the rule applies well in this case?

 

[Odola]

This thread has led me to consider a new method of analysis to determine how likely a speculation or supposition is.

Someone has probably pointed out this method before, but for now, I am going to call it 'Flammifer's test':

"If a supposition creates more new issues and problems than it solves, then it is not a good supposition."

In this case, The Supposition tries to solve what JRRT means when he has Gandalf say that he hopes the Nazgul, "were scattered, and have been obliged to return as best they could to their Master in Mordor, empty and shapeless."

No one in this thread has yet pointed out that this is an expression of hope by Gandalf, rather than an expression of fact. (Which, I think, is relevant.) Still, The Supposition, is trying to solve the problem of what is meant by obliged, empty, and shapeless.

At first glance The Supposition offers an interesting explanation of these words. However, with further thought, The Supposition raises more and more issues and problems:

How is Sauron's 'boost' removed from the Nazgul in the flood? If removed by the power of Gandalf and/or Elrond, why are there not other instances of using this to defeat the Nazgul? How does Sauron 'boost' corporality? Does he do this in other instances? Why not? If the 'boost' is removed in the flood, how do in-corporeal Nazgul travel back to Mordor? How can incorporeal beings travel at all? If they can travel instantly or swiftly, why no spies near Rivendell when the Company sets out? If they cannot travel, how do they come to appear again on winged beasts?

I'm sure there are other issues and problems which arise under the conditions of The Supposition. So, I propose that The Supposition fails the rule of 'Flammifer's test'.

What do you think of the rule? (I'm sure that it already exists, and has a name. Does anyone know what that might be? It is similar, though perhaps not quite the same, as Occam's razor?)

Do you think the rule applies well in this case?

As I stated before Gandalf might be deliberatly vage here at the cost of being technically unspecific. His aim is to communicate to the hobbits that the Nazgul are temporally gone without an attempt to give them any real insights into the nature of wraithification. So I am not convinced his statement here will help us much at all.

 

[Flammifer]

Hi Odola,

Gandalf might be being 'deliberately vague' or, he might just be being 'vague'. It could be that he just does not know exactly what became of the Nazgul after the flood, but hopes that they have been scattered and will return to Mordor. However, his choice of words to describe his hope is certainly curious. "What does Gandalf mean, or imply, by the words 'obliged', 'empty' and 'shapeless'. This is a very interesting problem and question for a close reader.

I am all in favor of speculations and suppositions on the meaning of those words. It is just that The Supposition, which led to this thread seemed quite compelling at first, but after careful consideration, the number of new issues and new problems that would arise if we go with The Supposition, just seem too numerous and too difficult to make it easy to accept The Supposition.

So, I return (pro-tem) to the easier explanation that the Nazgul were not boosted. They just lost their cloaks and horses and had to walk back to Mordor. Still, that interpretation does not really explain 'obliged', 'empty' or 'shapeless' very well. So I think there is still a question around Gandalf's use of these words. I just don't think anymore that The Supposition is a very good interpretation of them.

 

[Odola]

So, I return (pro-tem) to the easier explanation that the Nazgul were not boosted. They just lost their cloaks and horses and had to walk back to Mordor. Still, that interpretation does not really explain 'obliged', 'empty' or 'shapeless' very well. So I think there is still a question around Gandalf's use of these words. I just don't think anymore that The Supposition is a very good interpretation of them.

Hi Flammifer,
but leaving out Gandalf's audience and his assumption about the effect his word choice will have on his listeners first - which assumption might very well influence this word choice a lot more than Gandalf's real or assumed knowledge about the nature of the relationship between Sauron and the Nazgul - is contaproductive imho in any sensible evaluation of the passage.

 

[Flammifer]

Interesting observation Odola. Why do you think that Gandalf chose the words 'obliged' 'empty' and 'shapeless' for his audience of Hobbits. Those words would seem to me to portray the Nazgul as more mysterious ominous than necessary (though perhaps less immediately threatening and scary).

 

[Odola]

Interesting observation Odola. Why do you think that Gandalf chose the words 'obliged' 'empty' and 'shapeless' for his audience of Hobbits. Those words would seem to me to portray the Nazgul as more mysterious ominous than necessary (though perhaps less immediately threatening and scary).

"Obliged" gives a sense of security as it implies Nazgul are constrained and as such not "all-powerfull", "empty" implies lack and weakness, and "shapeless" similarly their current inability to take shape and scare or threaten the hobbits.

 

[JJ48]

This thread has led me to consider a new method of analysis to determine how likely a speculation or supposition is.

Someone has probably pointed out this method before, but for now, I am going to call it 'Flammifer's test':

"If a supposition creates more new issues and problems than it solves, then it is not a good supposition."

In this case, The Supposition tries to solve what JRRT means when he has Gandalf say that he hopes the Nazgul, "were scattered, and have been obliged to return as best they could to their Master in Mordor, empty and shapeless."

No one in this thread has yet pointed out that this is an expression of hope by Gandalf, rather than an expression of fact. (Which, I think, is relevant.) Still, The Supposition, is trying to solve the problem of what is meant by obliged, empty, and shapeless.

At first glance The Supposition offers an interesting explanation of these words. However, with further thought, The Supposition raises more and more issues and problems:

How is Sauron's 'boost' removed from the Nazgul in the flood? If removed by the power of Gandalf and/or Elrond, why are there not other instances of using this to defeat the Nazgul? How does Sauron 'boost' corporality? Does he do this in other instances? Why not? If the 'boost' is removed in the flood, how do in-corporeal Nazgul travel back to Mordor? How can incorporeal beings travel at all? If they can travel instantly or swiftly, why no spies near Rivendell when the Company sets out? If they cannot travel, how do they come to appear again on winged beasts? If they can travel incorporeally, why do they need winged beasts at all? For most 'black breath' missions in the war, corporality would seem unnecessary?

I'm sure there are other issues and problems which arise under the conditions of The Supposition. So, I propose that The Supposition fails the rule of 'Flammifer's test'.

What do you think of the rule? (I'm sure that it already exists, and has a name. Does anyone know what that might be? It is similar, though perhaps not quite the same, as Occam's razor?)

Do you think the rule applies well in this case?

I think, as with Occam's Razor, it's a rule that ends up being highly subjective and which can be easily misapplied. A lot of the "issues and problems" you mention, for instance, are not the result of The Supposition itself, but rather come from your own assumptions (e.g. the assumption that incorporeal beings would move instantaneously or not move at all). Someone else not making the same assumptions would not encounter the same issues and problems.

 

[Odola]

I think, as with Occam's Razor, it's a rule that ends up being highly subjective and which can be easily misapplied. A lot of the "issues and problems" you mention, for instance, are not the result of The Supposition itself, but rather come from your own assumptions (e.g. the assumption that incorporeal beings would move instantaneously or not move at all). Someone else not making the same assumptions would not encounter the same issues and problems.

Even if they would move instantaneously toward Sauron, who knows how long the process of their "re-masking" would take, whatever it is. It still might warranty the expectation that they are on time-out for a while.

 

[Flammifer]

So, you've demonstrated that there are problems if they move instantly or if they don't move at all. This remains a true problem regardless of whether they are corporeal or not, and is solved by having them move at a finite speed regardless of whether they are corporeal or not. I don't see that this line of reasoning really helps us get anywhere.

Furthermore, I guess I can only speak for myself, but I don't think I've ever claimed that they were pure spirit or disembodied; just that they're less than fully corporeal. Your argument sounds less like common logic, and more an attack on strawmen.

Hi JJ48,

For incorporeal spirits to move at all is a problem. How do they move if they are purely spiritual, and cannot interact with the physical world?

1. They could move by their own will. But then what would stop them from moving very quickly, or instantaneously?

2. They could not move at all. So how do they get back to Mordor to be re-mounted on flying steeds?

3. They can drift, with the winds. But, how can physical winds move an incorporeal spirit?

4. They can be moved by Sauron. But, if they can communicate with Sauron, to explain that they need to be moved, why can't they communicate to Sauron that the Ring is in Rivendell in time for spies to detect the exit of the Company?

5. Any other ways they could move? Some can be supposed, but they are less and less logical.

For incorporeal spirits to move, creates a lot of issues and problems. On the other hand, if the Nazgul are still partly corporeal, they can just walk to Mordor. Problems solved.
.
This is just one of the problems which arises if we consider The Supposition that the wraiths are purely spiritual unless boosted by Sauron, and that they somehow lose that boost in the flood of the Bruinen.

 

[JJ48]

Hi JJ48,

For incorporeal spirits to move at all is a problem. How do they move if they are purely spiritual, and cannot interact with the physical world?

1. They could move by their own will. But then what would stop them from moving very quickly, or instantaneously?

2. They could not move at all. So how do they get back to Mordor to be re-mounted on flying steeds?

3. They can drift, with the winds. But, how can physical winds move an incorporeal spirit?

4. They can be moved by Sauron. But, if they can communicate with Sauron, to explain that they need to be moved, why can't they communicate to Sauron that the Ring is in Rivendell in time for spies to detect the exit of the Company?

5. Any other ways they could move? Some can be supposed, but they are less and less logical.

For incorporeal spirits to move, creates a lot of issues and problems. On the other hand, if the Nazgul are still partly corporeal, they can just walk to Mordor. Problems solved.
.
This is just one of the problems which arises if we consider The Supposition that the wraiths are purely spiritual unless boosted by Sauron, and that they somehow lose that boost in the flood of the Bruinen.

Are we not told that there is a wraith-world? When Frodo puts on the Ring, he enters in and is able to see those in it quite clearly, and they him; and elves who have visited the Blessed Realm can also see both worlds at once, it seems. And yet, places there and places here seem to correspond with one another. It seems to me that even were the wraiths completely incorporeal in the physical realm, they could still travel in the wraith-world, which would translate to movement in our world without being caused by interaction with it.

 

[Flammifer]

Excellent supposition JJ48,

It might be that the wraith-world is somehow parallel to the visible world, and incorporeal beings could travel in the wraith world (somehow).

Still, the wraith world which is alluded to in TLOTR is manifest to the Ring-wraiths when they are 'boosted' (according to The Supposition), to Glorfindel, who 'lives at once in both worlds', and is certainly not incorporeal, and to Frodo when he puts on the Ring on Weathertop, and is certainly not incorporeal. Their movement could well be in the 'Seen world' (as they are all partly corporeal) without implying that they can move in the 'Unseen world'.

I don't think that it is very clear that the wraith world is somehow parallel with the real world and allows totally incorporeal beings to move through it as though through the visible world.

Neat supposition however.

 

[Jim Deutch]

This speculation comes from the conversation Gorbag has with Shagrat in the tunnel under Cirith Ungol. "Those Nazgul give me the creeps. And they skin the body off you as soon as look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side."

That sounds to me like Gorbag has heard of, or witnessed the Nazgul turning living beings into wraiths. How they do it, I don't know. But it leads me to speculate that the Nazgul created the Barrow-wights (transformed living beings into them, I mean) back when they were hanging out in Angbad and defeating Arnor.

Ooh, that does sound like turning Orcs into Wraiths, doesn't it? I'd always thought of it more metaphorically, but it could be quite literal!

OTOH, I don't think it's at all similar to creating a Barrow-wight. I think of Barrow-wights as dead bodies inhabited and reanimated by evil spirits: exactly the opposite of separating the spirit and the body of a living being.