Aspen Convallin
New Member
Gandalf not the traitor:
So, after Gandalf visits Gondor, Gollum is caught and taken to Mirkwood. We thought maybe this was because they had facilities to hold him and were more open to keeping prisoners at all. But also, maybe Aragorn and Gandalf sought the help of Mirkwood because it is not connected to the White Council, and the wood elves are less communicative with the other elves; this would lessen any chance that Saruman would hear about Gollum.
Gandalf goes to Mirkwood to question Gollum and requested the wood elves treat him respectfully because there was still hope for his cure.
Gandalf then goes to The Shire, proves it is the One Ring, and prepares Frodo to leave.
"I have heard something that had made me anxious" we know not what or how but off he goes and runs into Radagast, who has a message for him from Saruman.
Radagast says "They have crossed the River secretly and are moving westward." about the Nine.
Well, if it's "secretly" then how does Saruman know?
"I knew then what I had dreaded without knowing it."
His dread had finally crystallized - the dread he'd felt when he had to threaten Bilbo with uncloaking to get him to leave the ring for Frodo. "I spoke yet of my dread to none...seventeen years ago" when his "doubts were awakened again to sudden fear". His dread then and his dread now frame all the time he had seriously suspected Saruman of purposely lying, not just mistaken.
And about "knowing": Gandalf insists on final definitive proof sometimes like when he answered Frodo's question about "knowing all this" Gandalf said he had known much but "still do not know, one might say. There is a last test to make. But I no longer doubt my guess." Same thing here to himself.
Hearing the message from Radagast, Gandalf longer had any doubt that Saruman was purposely lying; because how else would Saruman know for sure that the Nine had crossed the Anduin unless he was in league or at least communicating with Sauron. And Saruman must have learned from the same source that the ring was suspected to be in The Shire - a place of great interest to Gandalf. Saruman now seriously suspects that Gandalf has proof of his deception.
So Gandalf was quite aware that Saruman was luring him to Isengard, with the offer of time-limited help, in order to get the ring or knowledge of the ring's whereabouts.
So, why would Gandalf go to Isengard if he knew it was a trap? Because he needed irrefutable evidence that Saruman was lying and because he hoped he was wrong. He had to give Saruman a chance to explain and if wrong, maybe Saruman did have a weapon or strategy to defeat the Nine. If not wrong, perhaps there was hope for rehabilitation for Saruman, ever the hope of Gandalf, that the tools of evil could be reformed and healed.
"now that I learn your mind...You have unmasked yourself at last".
Also, if he doesn’t go, if he goes back to the Shire to get Frodo, Saruman will know for sure where the ring is, chase them and get the ring. Gandalf going to Isengard provides a distraction which will allow Frodo enough time to get to Rivendell, if Butterburr delivers the letter, he hopes.
When we get to Isengard next, we can re-examine Gandalf's motivations for going to Isengard
So, after Gandalf visits Gondor, Gollum is caught and taken to Mirkwood. We thought maybe this was because they had facilities to hold him and were more open to keeping prisoners at all. But also, maybe Aragorn and Gandalf sought the help of Mirkwood because it is not connected to the White Council, and the wood elves are less communicative with the other elves; this would lessen any chance that Saruman would hear about Gollum.
Gandalf goes to Mirkwood to question Gollum and requested the wood elves treat him respectfully because there was still hope for his cure.
Gandalf then goes to The Shire, proves it is the One Ring, and prepares Frodo to leave.
"I have heard something that had made me anxious" we know not what or how but off he goes and runs into Radagast, who has a message for him from Saruman.
Radagast says "They have crossed the River secretly and are moving westward." about the Nine.
Well, if it's "secretly" then how does Saruman know?
"I knew then what I had dreaded without knowing it."
His dread had finally crystallized - the dread he'd felt when he had to threaten Bilbo with uncloaking to get him to leave the ring for Frodo. "I spoke yet of my dread to none...seventeen years ago" when his "doubts were awakened again to sudden fear". His dread then and his dread now frame all the time he had seriously suspected Saruman of purposely lying, not just mistaken.
And about "knowing": Gandalf insists on final definitive proof sometimes like when he answered Frodo's question about "knowing all this" Gandalf said he had known much but "still do not know, one might say. There is a last test to make. But I no longer doubt my guess." Same thing here to himself.
Hearing the message from Radagast, Gandalf longer had any doubt that Saruman was purposely lying; because how else would Saruman know for sure that the Nine had crossed the Anduin unless he was in league or at least communicating with Sauron. And Saruman must have learned from the same source that the ring was suspected to be in The Shire - a place of great interest to Gandalf. Saruman now seriously suspects that Gandalf has proof of his deception.
So Gandalf was quite aware that Saruman was luring him to Isengard, with the offer of time-limited help, in order to get the ring or knowledge of the ring's whereabouts.
So, why would Gandalf go to Isengard if he knew it was a trap? Because he needed irrefutable evidence that Saruman was lying and because he hoped he was wrong. He had to give Saruman a chance to explain and if wrong, maybe Saruman did have a weapon or strategy to defeat the Nine. If not wrong, perhaps there was hope for rehabilitation for Saruman, ever the hope of Gandalf, that the tools of evil could be reformed and healed.
"now that I learn your mind...You have unmasked yourself at last".
Also, if he doesn’t go, if he goes back to the Shire to get Frodo, Saruman will know for sure where the ring is, chase them and get the ring. Gandalf going to Isengard provides a distraction which will allow Frodo enough time to get to Rivendell, if Butterburr delivers the letter, he hopes.
When we get to Isengard next, we can re-examine Gandalf's motivations for going to Isengard