Session 6-02: The Villain Storylines

Define insanity. He certainly suffers from a deep pain in his soul, he is not fully sane anymore and goes "wayward". That could be either extreme depression so he actively looks for isolation, or he really is so disturbed he loses his senses of orientation or maybe even both.His spirit/mind/heart certainly is not healthy any more, that is why this happens to him.

Then actually he should fade or die of heart break as an elf. The connection between an elvish spirit and body does not allow for one to "lose his senses of orientation". He could be looking for isolation sure, but I do doubt he could stand that for more then a few millenia without fading either. Or he is later joined by Maglor in the "restless singers' band". But insane I cannot see how.
 
I think he possibly would fade or die at one point. Him getting lost this way... i could't explain it in any other way.Elves usually don't get lost either, not if their spirit works okay.elvish spirit not working that way... is a claim.Do we have more elves who get lost or seek isolation after a crisis? I think we could find examples.they do such things.maybe even to find healing? Possibly...
 
I think he possibly would fade or die at one point. Him getting lost this way... i could't explain it in any other way.Elves usually don't get lost either, not if their spirit works okay.elvish spirit not working that way... is a claim.Do we have more elves who get lost or seek isolation after a crisis? I think we could find examples.they do such things.maybe even to find healing? Possibly...

Is Daeron’s story a tragedy? If so we just have to decide for him and with he wanted, what’s the worst outcome. What does absolute loss look like for him. If we want to plant the seeds of hope there then we can give him that tragic ending, but also planted the smallest version of what success looks like. Generally you can have absolute loss of a physical action goal with a kernel of success in acquiring some emotional need, a nugget of growth providing hope that he can come back from this
 
Is Daeron’s story a tragedy? If so we just have to decide for him and with he wanted, what’s the worst outcome. What does absolute loss look like for him. If we want to plant the seeds of hope there then we can give him that tragic ending, but also planted the smallest version of what success looks like. Generally you can have absolute loss of a physical action goal with a kernel of success in acquiring some emotional need, a nugget of growth providing hope that he can come back from this

For what we know he might have settled down with a mortal or even a dwarven woman, changed his name and adopted Elured and Eluhir when those got lost in the woods; or Sauron took him in as his personal minstrel. We simply have too little data to go on I would say. So either we give him an open ending or we decide one for him. The problem is with all those wars and people's movements going on, it would take some real effort to keep "being lost" and not getting eaten by the spiders, imho.
 
Well it’s our story, we get to decide what happens to him. Even fading into obscurity is an ending. It’s a very sad one. But like everyone in the story, we can choose where to take them.

Personally, I quite like the idea of nightingales being a recurring element through the season. Even if Daeron is wandering alone but a nightingale comes and signs to him and he smiles at it, or even it drops a berry which he eats and maybe he hums along with its song and we see him regaining himself as an artist, that very small suggestion of a metaphysical Luthien reconnection has an element of hope within it. My point is, even if we settle on him as a wanderer, we can give him a glimpse of kindness in that.
 
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For what we know he might have settled down with a mortal or even a dwarven woman, changed his name and adopted Elured and Eluhir when those got lost in the woods; or Sauron took him in as his personal minstrel. We simply have too little data to go on I would say. So either we give him an open ending or we decide one for him. The problem is with all those wars and people's movements going on, it would take some real effort to keep "being lost" and not getting eaten by the spiders, imho.

Do you honestly think that? That Daeron getting lost and going wayward is just accidentally and not the planned and intended end of his story? Ok.I have a hard time to believe that.
 
Do you honestly think that? That Daeron getting lost and going wayward is just accidentally and not the planned and intended end of his story? Ok.I have a hard time to believe that.

I recognise it as an element of the story telling of the kind like "and they lived ever after" - regardless if that is at all likelly or not. A fixed element in a song or tale - the same is used for Maglor. But I do not think is is viable in a real-pretend setting. It can be believed for a mortal who has like 50 years at most to live out in a cave in a forest while most other people seldom go there. Difficult to do for an immortal among other immortal forest-loving semi-nacturnal wandering people - and this while war is raging on and we aleady have huge populations on the move already. Either a spider or moster eats him or somebody is due to see him on occassion.
 
I recognise it as an element of the story telling of the kind like "and they lived ever after" - regardless if that is at all likelly or not. A fixed element in a song or tale - the same is used for Maglor. But I do not think is is viable in a real-pretend setting. It can be believed for a mortal who has like 50 years at most to live out in a cave in a forest while most other people seldom go there. Difficult to do for an immortal among other immortal forest-loving semi-nacturnal wandering people - and this while war is raging on and we aleady have huge populations on the move already. Either a spider or moster eats him or somebody is due to see him on occassion.

Okay, so maybe it's not entirely believable that he just wanders forever. Sure. But is there any story to tell after that. It's only worth telling anything after that point if there is something to tell. We don't need to follow him just for the sake of following him. If there is more story left, sure. But I feel like, even in our telling, most of his story will be told up to that point. We may find we are wrong as we go on and there is more to say, which, in that case, we'll have to weigh up the benefits and risks of extended his screentime in lieu of others'. But let's not think we have to follow him. If that ending isn't satisfying it doesn't mean we necessarily need to tell more, we just need to tell it better to make it satisfying. Work out what satisfying is, as I mentioned before.

I do agree with Ang1e4e5 that we should chat about villains a bit more and if we've definitely determined that Daeron is more sympathetic than villainous, conversations about him should probably be followed up elsewhere.
 
Okay, so maybe it's not entirely believable that he just wanders forever. Sure. But is there any story to tell after that. It's only worth telling anything after that point if there is something to tell. We don't need to follow him just for the sake of following him. If there is more story left, sure. But I feel like, even in our telling, most of his story will be told up to that point. We may find we are wrong as we go on and there is more to say, which, in that case, we'll have to weigh up the benefits and risks of extended his screentime in lieu of others'. But let's not think we have to follow him. If that ending isn't satisfying it doesn't mean we necessarily need to tell more, we just need to tell it better to make it satisfying. Work out what satisfying is, as I mentioned before.

I do agree with Ang1e4e5 that we should chat about villains a bit more and if we've definitely determined that Daeron is more sympathetic than villainous, conversations about him should probably be followed up elsewhere.
Maybe it is also worth to consider what it might cost the story to let him just wander freely off? It might lessen the apperent urgency of the raging war if we suggest that it is still safe for a lone elf just to wander off into the blue and to be just fine...
 
Maybe it is also worth to consider what it might cost the story to let him just wander freely off? It might lessen the apperent urgency of the raging war if we suggest that it is still safe for a lone elf just to wander off into the blue and to be just fine...

It depends if we want to leave the audience with the assumption he will be fine. We can leave it to the audience's imagination. We just need to tell the story he has to tell. I think it'll cost the story a lot more to focus too much attention on him if he really will only be a tertiary figure
 
It depends if we want to leave the audience with the assumption he will be fine. We can leave it to the audience's imagination. We just need to tell the story he has to tell. I think it'll cost the story a lot more to focus too much attention on him if he really will only be a tertiary figure

I think this will be only visible when the scene is being written. Can the story just shift the focus away from him with the rest of the Thingol's court? It might. He has served his purpose. If we show him wandering off - this might feel strange and purposeless if there is no explaination.

And if would be nice to have a familiar face around in the court of Dior.
 
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Could we have luthien take out Thuringwethil? Almost planted the seeds that the shouldn’t be taken lightly by the dark forces. And then she would just have the pelt/cloak. Just tightens things up a little more.

The one thing I’m really worried about, as Nicholas expressed, is the repetition of werewolf at adversaries. I really liked the idea of Carcharoth being a reaction to Draugluin’s defeat snd I love the seeding of him as a puppy and the rumour of a new guardian.

We still have Draugluin, then wolf Sauron then Carcharoth though. It feels repetitive if it’s just three big wolves to defeat. Could Sauron be flavoured differently to break this up. Maybe he has more of a smoke like metaphysical wolf dark ‘patronus’ surrounding him as he battles. He’s still lord of werewolves but also set apart as a different kind of foe?
I think there should still be a few werewolves, or at least one more than Draugluin, since there's a werewolf that kills Finrod's companions and is subsequently killed (and kills) Finrod.
 
Could we not make that Draugluin? Or perhaps if we go the route of Sauron have a more incorporeal wolf form, could it be that that emerges from the shadows of cells and consumed people. I just really think that a succession of werewolves puts us in a very repetitive place. If you show that Draugluin has in affect been a precursor to Carcharoth this whole time and is himself a red herring to the prophecy, that makes sense to have him (and the fact that, you know, we know Draugluin). I suppose it's truer to say that it justifies why we introduce this bigger badder werewolf in Carcharoth: we already have an expectation that the big bad wolf in the prophecy out to be Draugluin. So offing him makes the audience think it's all okay...then you drop the bombshell of Carcharoth, as discussed by Corey et al. I really love that. I just think introducing other werewolves dilutes it. A string of progressively tougher werewolves clues the audience into the fact that there is a big boss werewolf on the horizon and spoils the needle scratch that is Carcharoth. And at worst, I worry it could be comical, having werewolf after werewolf. I think once Draugluin is gone, you need an absence of any werewolve adversaries so that Caracharoth comes as a real shock. Which is why I think something different needs to be done with Sauron himself. Just to make him visually interesting and distinct as an enemy 'wolf' if nothing else.
 
Could we not make that Draugluin? Or perhaps if we go the route of Sauron have a more incorporeal wolf form, could it be that that emerges from the shadows of cells and consumed people. I just really think that a succession of werewolves puts us in a very repetitive place. If you show that Draugluin has in affect been a precursor to Carcharoth this whole time and is himself a red herring to the prophecy, that makes sense to have him (and the fact that, you know, we know Draugluin). I suppose it's truer to say that it justifies why we introduce this bigger badder werewolf in Carcharoth: we already have an expectation that the big bad wolf in the prophecy out to be Draugluin. So offing him makes the audience think it's all okay...then you drop the bombshell of Carcharoth, as discussed by Corey et al. I really love that. I just think introducing other werewolves dilutes it. A string of progressively tougher werewolves clues the audience into the fact that there is a big boss werewolf on the horizon and spoils the needle scratch that is Carcharoth. And at worst, I worry it could be comical, having werewolf after werewolf. I think once Draugluin is gone, you need an absence of any werewolve adversaries so that Caracharoth comes as a real shock. Which is why I think something different needs to be done with Sauron himself. Just to make him visually interesting and distinct as an enemy 'wolf' if nothing else.
If we make it Draugluin, that somewhat spoils the rivalry between him and Huan; that would be like dropping Arya Stark out of a tree (and somehow nobody seeing her) to take out the Night King even though she has no personal conflict with him, while the show's been building for a big confrontation between him and Jon.
 
If we make it Draugluin, that somewhat spoils the rivalry between him and Huan; that would be like dropping Arya Stark out of a tree (and somehow nobody seeing her) to take out the Night King even though she has no personal conflict with him, while the show's been building for a big confrontation between him and Jon.

I mean that's very true. I just think to have another werewolf is kind of a bit...'meh.' It just distracts from our 'hero' werewolves. Unless we flavour it so it's noticeably a different sort of creature. Maybe it doesn't need to be bigger and nastier than Draugluin. Mangier, angular. The wolf that only gets fed scraps and is savagely hungry. A Gollum werewolf. So it's a threat that needs killing, but it's just in a couple scenes and would never give the impression of being the werewolf to fulfil the prophecy. It needs to be a heroic death for Finrod but I just don't think we should get the sense that the big threats this season will be one werewolf after another. I think this is why Corey suggests the wolves being sent forth by Sauron to stop Huan should come in a wave.

An alternative it again, the idea that it is Sauron himself in another form torturing and killing prisoners and then killing Finrod, who can injure Sauron in the conflict, at least sets up Sauron as assuming the form of a wolf. And we already know that combat isn't where his strengths lie, so it's valid that Finrod rising up to defend Beren could be a valid adversary. Finrod dying at Sauron's hand, even if he doesn't know it, is a big way to go out. Sauron could then leave and resume his own form and be full of malice.
 
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I recognise it as an element of the story telling of the kind like "and they lived ever after" - regardless if that is at all likelly or not. A fixed element in a song or tale - the same is used for Maglor. But I do not think is is viable in a real-pretend setting. It can be believed for a mortal who has like 50 years at most to live out in a cave in a forest while most other people seldom go there. Difficult to do for an immortal among other immortal forest-loving semi-nacturnal wandering people - and this while war is raging on and we aleady have huge populations on the move already. Either a spider or moster eats him or somebody is due to see him on occassion.

I see it even more likely for elves, who are more extreme than humans in any way.
I really think when Daeron becomes wayward he becomes actually wayward. Can't believe he'd ever love another person again, or play/sing to an audience of elves rather than to mountains, trees or beasts.That depressed unrequited lover who seeks lonelyness is a thing, and it is how Derons story is meant to end.I really strongly believe that and understand his entire story this way.
 
I am quite happy to discuss villains more.

One problemmi always had with werewolves is that i do not yet see them much as characters... de we really have talking wolves? Do we give them much of a personality? Like Gmork? Or Maugrim?
 
I am quite happy to discuss villains more.

One problem I always had with werewolves is that i do not yet see them much as characters... de we really have talking wolves? Do we give them much of a personality? Like Gmork? Or Maugrim?
The main one we have is Draugluin, as he tells Sauron "Huan is here" right when he dies.
 
I don’t know that others need to. They could I suppose. I don’t know if it complicates things or not. I don’t feel like Carcharoth should. He’s more a force of nature in my mind.
 
I don’t know that others need to. They could I suppose. I don’t know if it complicates things or not. I don’t feel like Carcharoth should. He’s more a force of nature in my mind.
Perhaps they can, but don't. The only one we really need to hear from is Draugluin.
 
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