Session 6-02: The Villain Storylines

Allright. So we also do not build them up more as characters, as they don't need dialogue?

Then all we have is Morgoth, Gothmog, Sauron, Thuringwethil, Boldog, Gorgol. Enough evil characters for evil dialogues still in my opinion. Gorgol will de dead soon though...
 
Haerangil said:
Allright. So we also do not build them up more as characters, as they don't need dialogue?

Then all we have is Morgoth, Gothmog, Sauron, Thuringwethil, Boldog, Gorgol. Enough evil characters for evil dialogues still in my opinion. Gorgol will de dead soon though...
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Gothmog is probably going to be shunted to the side this season.
 
Rob Harding said:
I mean that's very true. I just think to have another werewolf is kind of a bit...'meh.' It just distracts from our 'hero' werewolves. Unless we flavour it so it's noticeably a different sort of creature. Maybe it doesn't need to be bigger and nastier than Draugluin. Mangier, angular. The wolf that only gets fed scraps and is savagely hungry. A Gollum werewolf. So it's a threat that needs killing, but it's just in a couple scenes and would never give the impression of being the werewolf to fulfil the prophecy. It needs to be a heroic death for Finrod but I just don't think we should get the sense that the big threats this season will be one werewolf after another. I think this is why Corey suggests the wolves being sent forth by Sauron to stop Huan should come in a wave.

An alternative it again, the idea that it is Sauron himself in another form torturing and killing prisoners and then killing Finrod, who can injure Sauron in the conflict, at least sets up Sauron as assuming the form of a wolf. And we already know that combat isn't where his strengths lie, so it's valid that Finrod rising up to defend Beren could be a valid adversary. Finrod dying at Sauron's hand, even if he doesn't know it, is a big way to go out. Sauron could then leave and resume his own form and be full of malice.
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I could get behind Sauron being the werewolf.
 
So apart from Morgoths scene with Luthien and Gorgol killing Barahir and getting killed by Beren...
Maybe Boldogs end by Thingol.

Our villain scenes would mainly focus on Sauron and Thuringwethil then?
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
I could get behind Sauron being the werewolf.
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I think it’s also nice to not make Sauron purely the one pulling strings. He’s desperate enough to get his hands dirty. I think once Beren learns Sauron was behind it, there’s a moment where it might reignite that sense of seeking vengeance for a fallen friend BUT he knows Luthien is the one to save the day and he steps aside. An obvious moment of change for the character and the first time we see Luthien let loose. Or even, you could have Beren try to stop Sauron despite Luthien’s protests and Luthien has to step in to save him. Which would add drama to the Morgoth scene: Will Beren allow Luthien to be who she is and surrender his identity as warrior, which would be nice to see him stop defining himself by the sword as the series progresses.

I wonder if maybe Sauron’s departure could be him wanting to go somewhere without elves. Less licking his wounds and hiding more, I’ve had it with these folks. I’m starting somewhere they can’t interfere
 
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Haerangil said:
So apart from Morgoths scene with Luthien and Gorgol killing Barahir and getting killed by Beren...
Maybe Boldogs end by Thingol.

Our villain scenes would mainly focus on Sauron and Thuringwethil then?
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Well, we also have Sauron taking Tol Sirion at the start of the season, since the place is known as the Isle of Werewolves (the translation of Tol-in-Gaurhoth is Isle of Werevolves in Sindarin). Draugluin will likely play a part in that.
 
Haerangil said:
He isn't completely incarnate at that point? I thought he was by the time he visited Hildorien and certainly the time he dueled Fingolfin?

Anyway... i think of Melkor as a corruptor, so when he becomes aware of Luthien he would wish to corrupt her, spoiling her by harassing and contaminating her physically would suit him, that incorporates sexually, no hormones needed, it is domination and humiliation.
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What do you mean exactly by "completely incarnate"? Does he need to sleep, eat, drink and use a bathroom? He can sleep, but does he have to - at certain intervalls? That is the kind of incarnation which would make hormones (like e.g. insulin) necessary.
 
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Odola said:
What do you mean exactly by "completely incarnate"? Does he need to sleep, eat, drink and use a bathroom? He can sleep, but does he have to - at certain intervalls? That is the kind of incarnation which would make hormones (like .g. insulin) necessary.
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I’m not sure it matters too much that we get into the weeds on the technical mechanics of it. Just need to know if it facilitates emotions or if he’s cold and distant. Well, we know emotions are definitely present, regardless of chemistry or biology. So then we just decide for our story if it’s an emotional longing/sexual lusting or if it’s a power trip. Then we have to work out how to visually present that choice
 
Rob Harding said:
I’m not sure it matters too much that we get into the weeds on the technical mechanics of it. Just need to know if it facilitates emotions or if he’s cold and distant. Well, we know emotions are definitely present, regardless of chemistry or biology. So then we just decide for our story if it’s an emotional longing/sexual lusting or if it’s a power trip. Then we have to work out how to visually present that choice
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Whatever we decide it has to make sense (to be at least superficially internally coherent). Nothing puts audience off so much than the impression that the filmmakers consider the audience to be "stupid".
 
Odola said:
Whatever we decide it has to make sense (to be at least superficially internally coherent). Nothing puts audience off so much than the impression that the filmmakers consider the audience to be "stupid".
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My point was as long as it is consistent with what we have established, then it works. We know Maiar have emotions and physical attributes. I don't think we need to consider the biological makeup in terms of hormones.
 
Rob Harding said:
I also like that this repeats the idea of men in her life trying to save her and she does not need that at all. She is not a Disney Princess. But she can still be stunning and enchanted and beautiful without bring delicate.

What was the conclusion from way back about differentiating orc ‘heroes’? How do we make sure Gorgol stands out? Does he just carry a big butcher’s knife style sword? I know these chats were had but can’t think where (searching ‘orcs’ brings up A LOT).
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There wasn't much of one outside of making Boldog much bigger than most other Orcs (Boldog's actor Conan Stevens is just over 7 feet tall and was established as the ceiling for Orcs). My thoughts about Gorgol were to make him more skilled than the average Orc, but physically unlike Boldog, similar to how the T-800 and T-1000 were (and why I opened the thread on Gorgol with a suggestion of Ray Park).
 
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Yeah, i liked the somewhat sneering, disrespectful take on his character.Not just another stereotypical towering humungous-orc. He doesn't need to be physical imposing to be a good adversary for Barahir and Beren, he can still be a tough fighter but maybe more deceptive, planful and clever.We hadn't had such orcs yet..
 
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FWIW, "hormones" was a euphemism, please don't take it literally. Don't forget Morgoth 'ravished' Arien Myths Transformed, even though they were both Ainur, as a means of degrading and punishing her, not to satisfy his own sexual desire. He could conceivably be considering something for Luthien, with the extension that it would be a means of hurting/insulting Thingol, Melian et; cf the maiming of Gelmir to taunt the Noldor army.
 
I completely agree with this and was rather my pointy. I guess I hadn’t interpreted the use of hormones as euphemistic in the same way. I just wanted to say we don’t need to try and quantify everything. It’s often easier to overexplain a concept. I agree, the audience will piece together what is happening based on the world we lay out if we make the intentions clear enough
 
Oh, I was the one who started using "hormones", so I take the blame for the conversation veering off onto a slight tangent ...

piece together what is happening based on the world we lay out if we make the intentions clear enough
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yes, that was my point: whatever we want to convey, it just needs careful setting up, rather than Morgoth being a 1960s cartoon character acting like a wolf when seeing Luthien...
 
I do worry that we may end up spending lots of time on Gorlim and the betrayal and backstory before we even get to Beren and setting up his story and quest. I mean, if we end the first episode with Barahir’s death perhaps that’s a way to have your cake snd eat it, show backstory but also make the turning point for him very clear. Then we’d have to work out that Luthien is doing. But that seems very slowburn for a season with so much to pack in. I think the Gorlim story might need to be entirely down in a couple of scenes up top then get straight into the story. I’m just conscious we have some really fun villains with juicy scenes and don’t want to have our characters take a back seat before we meet them.
 
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