Beren's equipment

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Yeap, in all categories checked there the atlatl was a neat compromise between a spear - stong but cumbersone to use and difficult (limited in numer) to transport in a forest and a "primitive arrow". And - as the article states - an atlatl dart is capable to bring down "even the toughest game -- assuming it is in the effective range" - which said range is naturally limited in a forest anyway - due to all the trees standing around.

"No one of the three factors we looked at is an indicator of hunting effectiveness by itself. All the weapons listed have been used for killing, and all have proven themselves effective. Atlatl darts do not have as much kinetic energy or momentum as firearms, but have a better sectional density. They are higher in all three factors than arrows, and arrows are known to be very effective weapons. There is very little you can't bring down with a well-placed arrow.

Is an atlatl as powerful as a .30-06? No. It has less kinetic energy (force of impact) and less momentum (penetration). It doesn't have anywhere near the effective range and is much harder to aim. But for tens of thousands of years, it was the primary hunting weapon on earth. Dart points have been found in mammoth bones, and they have been tested on modern elephant carcasses with impressive results. While it may not be as effective as a rifle, it is certainly effective enough. Just how dead do you need your supper?"



Great! Slavs. And Antes (ancient Ukrainians). You do know how to approach me from my week side Halstein. Slavs do have a long guerilla tradition - in contrary to the Celts. But here we have exactly the limitiation of numbers I've spoken about - "two to each man". Those javelins described seems to have been cerit/djerid/jerid/jereed-like: Djerid (weapon) - Wikipedia https://worcester.emuseum.com/internal/media/dispatcher/36543/resize:format=full;jsessionid=F7ED9951138AACF942832C0206101295
which the Slavs have used historically also. [Here short old very low quality video showing and explaining a Slavic jerid - regrettably only in Polish - build, wood (hazel or ash), length, weighting and the way to throw it Dziryt budowa - YouTube - sorry, this was the best I could find].

Beyond that generally the woods South of the Danube tend not to be very dense. "densely wooded, narrow, and steep places" seems more like ravines than real woods.

And as : "Short bows naturally have shorter draw lengths than long bows" (Short Bow Vs. Long Bow (sportsrec.com) ) and "Arrow length refers to draw length plus about 2 inches. " (Draw Length vs Arrow Length Explained - Archery for Beginners ) the use of "short arrows" does exclude the use of a longbow - sorry Haerangil - at least in this reported case - which makes sense for a wooded area - where the possible range is naturally limited by the trees anyway. And as I've stated before, even a short arrow is enough to bring down a human, but not necessary an orc, who are generally more robust.

But I am all for the use of forged metal jerids in Dorthonion - but on the orcs' part. Orcs are strong enough to carry bundles of those on their shoulders. And metal jerids do also look very nice - even when imagined covered in Blackspeech runes.

https://dygtyjqp7pi0m.cloudfront.net/i/15532/15525639_1.jpg?v=8CFD9E6248990B0

No idea. Do not know if poison does work on elves - if not, orcs might have some resistance to them - or maybe not - as they are corrupted. But orcs could have been immunised to the poisons of Angband during their warrior training.

I am sure Angband has a research bio lab where all kinds of poisons and pestillences are invented, lead by some fallen Maiar of Estë and Irmo.

So, I live in a heavily forested area where people hunt at range all the time including with bows. Forests are not a problem for bowhunters, or even bow snipers. And just because humans might not be as preternaturally good at archery as Elves does not mean they would not utilize it to the proficiency at which they were capable.

Forgive me if I've missed it in all of this, but has anyone come up with an example of a steel-forging culture that was still using an atatl?

Also an atatl and accompanying darts have the issue of being nearly as cumbersome as a spear, but not as versatile, not as useful in as many situations. I definitely don't see that as something Beren carry with him in a situation where he could not carry a spear.

 

[Odola]

Do those hunters hunt huge bears with arrows? Do they use huge longbows in the forests?

Also an atatl and accompanying darts have the issue of being nearly as cumbersome as a spear, but not as versatile, not as useful in as many situations. I definitely don't see that as something Beren carry with him in a situation where he could not carry a spear.

?
An atlatl itself you can take tucked behind your belt (it could double as a club if needed, much better than a bow, and an Austalian styl woomera can even serve to draw water - so versatile enough), and the darts in a quiver? A little longer than the one for arrows? Here a very easy solution:

https://scontent-waw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/67186669_1354776711344149_967691028398080000_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-6&_nc_sid=666b5a&_nc_ohc=wBlMBR5GRE0AX8LOBmT&_nc_ht=scontent-waw1-1.xx&oh=00_AT9Wv3mLP7SVeTYoMjfMzoAofU7TB7uzz6eFU2QHka2Unw&oe=62A71AAF

Even jerids quivers are much heavier than the atlatl ones, and carry much less? And atlatls are much more versatile, a javelin once thrown is gone for this one fight - if you have hit your target - that is, and you can carry only two with you at one time - with no free hands, 3 when in a quiver -. Atlatl darts you can have about half a much as arrows. And you can also have darts you put together from 2-4 pre-prepared pieces. https://i.etsystatic.com/13763011/r/il/488a88/1534701555/il_794xN.1534701555_bblh.jpg

And multipiece darts are confirmed in the historic records.

As I've said, an atlatl is a neat compromise between javelings and bow and arrows.

Bow and arrow we have seen and will seen ad nauseam in the whole series, and this would have been the moment to see something else in order to explain without words on screen that Barahir's band and its methods are "special" in comparison to what came before and what will come after (and that genuinly human ideas can be successfull, one does not always have to rely only on elvish-derived stuff).

But I understand the intention here is to play down the legendary status of Barahir's men as much as possible to just a failed attempt as resistance that had as little strategic importance for the enemy as Faramir's band of Ithilien rangers. O.K. Fits well with the portayal of Beren as a clueless next door guy.

Steal was invented after the people stopped being hunters for a living ad hunted only most for middle size game or fur animals. For those purposes - when you no longer needed to bring a whole mammoth home - bow and arrow was enough. Bur orc are not "middle size game", I would count them as "big game" myself.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Bow and arrow we have seen and will seen untill nausea in the whole series, and this would have been the moment to see something else in order to explain without words on screen that Barahir's band and its methods are "special" in comparison to what came before and what will come after.

The atatl is something we could have and would have seen in our newly arrived humans. The bow is an extremely effective weapon, which is why it nearly always replaced the atatl. So we should absolutely expect it to be ubiquitous.

But I understand the intention here is to play down the legendary status of Barahir's men as much as possible to just a failed attempt as resistance that had as little strategic importance for the enemy as Faramir's band of Ithilien rangers. O.K. Fits well with the portayal of Beren as a clueless next door guy.

None of this is true about our adaptation. If that is the impression you are getting, I'm truly baffled.

Steal was invented after the people stopped being hunters for a living ad hunted only most for middle size game or fur animals. For those purposes - when you no longer needed to bring a whole mammoth home - bow and arrow was enough. Bur orc are not "middle size game", I would count them as "big game" myself.

Orcs are hardly mammoths. And if the atlatl were preferable for killing human-sized targets in armor, it would not have been as widely replaced with the bow.

 

[Haerangil]

Do those hunters hunt huge bears with arrows? Do they use huge longbows in the forests?


?
An atlatl itself you can take tucked behind your belt (it could double as a club if needed, much better than a bow, and an Austalian styl woomera can even serve to draw water - so versatile enough), and the darts in a quiver? A little longer than the one for arrows? Here a very easy solution:

https://scontent-waw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/67186669_1354776711344149_967691028398080000_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-6&_nc_sid=666b5a&_nc_ohc=wBlMBR5GRE0AX8LOBmT&_nc_ht=scontent-waw1-1.xx&oh=00_AT9Wv3mLP7SVeTYoMjfMzoAofU7TB7uzz6eFU2QHka2Unw&oe=62A71AAF

Even jerids quivers are much heavier than the atlatl ones, and carry much less? And atlatls are much more versatile, a javelin once thrown is gone for this one fight - if you have hit your target - that is, and you can carry only two with you at one time - with no free hands, 3 when in a quiver -. Atlatl darts you can have about half a much as arrows. And you can also have darts you put together from 2-4 pre-prepared pieces. https://i.etsystatic.com/13763011/r/il/488a88/1534701555/il_794xN.1534701555_bblh.jpg
View attachment 4286
And multipiece darts are confirmed in the historic records.

As I've said, an atlatl is a neat compromise between javelings and bow and arrows.

Bow and arrow we have seen and will seen untill nausea in the whole series, and this would have been the moment to see something else in order to explain without words on screen that Barahir's band and its methods are "special" in comparison to what came before and what will come after (and that genuinly human ideas can be successfull, one does not always have to rely only on elvish-derived stuff).

But I understand the intention here is to play down the legendary status of Barahir's men as much as possible to just a failed attempt as resistance that had as little strategic importance for the enemy as Faramir's band of Ithilien rangers. O.K. Fits well with the portayal of Beren as a clueless next door guy.

Steal was invented after the people stopped being hunters for a living ad hunted only most for middle size game or fur animals. For those purposes - when you no longer needed to bring a whole mammoth home - bow and arrow was enough. Bur orc are not "middle size game", I would count them as "big game" myself.

The general tactic for hunting big animals with either darts or bow and arrow was to hit them at a sensitive spot so they bleed and get slow and eventually even die of bloodloss... mammoths included!

I always keep on mentioning that Javelins are made for enemies who use shields, even Arrows are somewhat effective against these in making them harder to use if hit by multiple projectiles.

 

[Haerangil]

By the way, what are our decissions about Beren's sword, his general equipment, what he takes into Ered Gorgoroth, what he losses in Nan Dungortheb, what he receives in Doriath - from Luthien, Melian - anybody else?

I had posted a small list of possible items, we could choose cor every item where exactly he gets it and where he loses it again. I believe he changes equipment 1. Before Barahirs death 2nd before his exitus to dungortheb 3rd possibly improvised equipment IN dungortheb 4th in doriath when he meets luthien 5 when he lives as a somewhat tolerated but shunned woodwose in doriath and luthien pays him on off visits 6 at thingols court 7th at Nargothrond, 8 at the orc camp he and Finrod ambush 9 at Tol in gaurhoth 10 at angband 11 again in Doriath? 12 in ossiriand

 

[Odola]

The atatl is something we could have and would have seen in our newly arrived humans. The bow is an extremely effective weapon, which is why it nearly always replaced the atlatl.

There were and are cultures who kept using both. For different purposes - the horseless Aztecs in warfare and the Inuit for bigger marine mammals. The bow is easier to carry and you can have more arrows with you. That are all its main advantages.

Even Tolkien's Silmarillion world is anachronistic enought to use weapons from different times - if wanted.

None of this is true about our adaptation. If that is the impression you are getting, I'm truly baffled.

We are continiously cutting out any achievements and continent-wide fame and the importance the enemy places on them - both of the band and of Beren himself. That is where my impression comes from.

But I start to see that one of the main themes of the story is: "anybody can get that elvish princess" (a very democratic idea) - then it does make sense to tell the story this way.

In Beren is "anybody" then Barahir's band has to be that too - so it cannot fall out of the already established ordinary.

 

[Odola]

I had posted a small list of possible items, we could choose cor every item where exactly he gets it and where he loses it again. I believe he changes equipment 1. Before Barahirs death 2nd before his exitus to dungortheb 3rd possibly improvised equipment IN dungortheb 4th in doriath when he meets luthien 5 when he lives as a somewhat tolerated but shunned woodwose in doriath and luthien pays him on off visits 6 at thingols court 7th at Nargothrond, 8 at the orc camp he and Finrod ambush 9 at Tol in gaurhoth 10 at angband 11 again in Doriath? 12 in ossiriand

So:

Item

band time

revenge

leaving Dorthonion

Doriath alone

Doriath with Luthien

Thingol's court

leaving Doriath

Nargothrond

orcs ambush

Tol-in-Gaurhoth

Beren's Leap

recovery in Brethil

Angband

Doriath

Ossiriand

ultimate death

Barahir's Hand

Barahir

gained

buried

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

Barahir's Ring

Barahir

gained

there

there

there

there

there

there

there

?

there

there

there

there

there

passed on to Dior

Bregor's Bow

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

Curufin's Coat of Mail

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

gained

there

there

?

?

?

Grey Orc Helmet

orc

orc

orc

orc

orc

orc

orc

orc

gained

lost

n

n

n

n

n

n

grey dwarven hauberk

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

Hide of Draugluin

Draugluin

Draugluin

Draugluin

Draugluin

Draugluin

Draugluin

Draugluin

Draugluin

Draugluin

gained

there

there

?

?

?

?

Horn of Brethil

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

Knife (Angrist)

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

gained

there

broken

n

n

n

Great orcish Spear

orc

orc

orc

orc

orc

orc

orc

orc

gained

lost

n

n

n

n

n

n

Kitchen-Knife of Angband

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

Sword (Dagmor)

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

buried?

wooden Club

orc

orc

orc

orc

orc

orc

orc

orc

gained

lost

n

n

n

n

n

n

So, the four items I do know nothing about are marked in purple.
Above marked in red the places where Beren can resupply.

What about all those question marks?

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

We are continiously cutting out any achievements and continent-wide fame and the importance the enemy places on them - both of the band and of Beren himself. That is where my impression comes from.

That's a strange way to put that. The outlaws are shown to be doing exactly what the book says they're doing. And Sauron and Thuringwethil literally have a whole conversation about them in episode 2. The only change that has been made is to the length of time Beren remains. Still, we have paid special attention to making it clear that Beren is an extremely competent guy.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

The Horn of Brethil is, once again, an innovation of S04 in SilmFilm. During the time the band is in Dorthonion, it is in the possession Belegund, son of Bregolas.

What has not yet been decided is its fate following the band's destruction. It seems to me that we should see it broken at Belegund's side and that it should be buried with him.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

That's a strange way to put that. The outlaws are shown to be doing exactly what the book says they're doing. And Sauron and Thuringwethil literally have a whole conversation about them in episode 2. The only change that has been made is to the length of time Beren remains. Still, we have paid special attention to making it clear that Beren is an extremely competent guy.

Who happens to get his ass kicked by everything after he winds up in Doriath.

 

[Haerangil]

-The Bow of Bregor is a later heirloom of Numenor, it is an artefact of Ladros... we COULD have Beren as the one who takes it up and saves it... or we could just ignore it and say it somehow survived with one of the refugees from Ladros.Personally i think it woukd be cool to tie it in with beren's story... not that i have any personal hate for Atlatls!

-the grey dwarven hauberk... this is from the lay of leithiean i believe, it is a piece of nogrodic origin and originally worn by Barahir... beren might take it after his father? But he'd most likely loses it in dungortheb then i guess?

-the kitchen knife of Angband is a relic from lost tales... i believe Beren took it when he was a slave of Tevildo's cook. I guess we can ignore it for silmfilm, or maybe he somehow steals such a knife to try or plan defend himself at the dungeons of Tol in Gaurhoth... anyway it is ot an important item as it gets replaced by Angrist!

-wooden club.Beren uses this weapon in dorthonion to slay orcs, seemingly after he has lost his former, better equipment somehow.It is not an important weapon but a necessity weapon, its only function in the tale was to show what a great fighter Beren was as he slew orcs and wolves with just a wooden club! I guess we might use it or ignore it, however i am certain he has lost it already when he stumbles into Doriath

-mighty shield and spear - these are Barahirs weapons which he used to save Finrod, Berens equipment may have been the same i guess, but probably not anymore in Doriath.wall of spears is his tactic,so most likely a very large weapon, one would use against cavalry or huge creatures

-spear.Beren uses this weapon against Carcharoth... i believe it is most likely an elven spear,either of Doriathrin or Greenelvish making.

-Orc spear.Almost certainly looted from the orc camp Finrods company ambushes... also as certainly lost during the confrontation wirh Sauron.

-Berens bow.Along with Dagmor his weapon in Dorthonion, in the other version where he does not only use a wooden club.Could be the same as bregors bow or just could be his own bow.Possibly lost in Dungortheb or even before.

-Dagmor. This is Berens weapon in Dorthonion along with his bow.either aternative to his club or before, so he loses it, either already in Dorthonion or in Dungortheb, he seemingly doesn't have it in Doriath anymore.

 

[Halstein]

Great! Slavs. And Antes (ancient Ukrainians). You do know how to approach me from my week side Halstein. Slavs do have a long guerilla tradition - in contrary to the Celts. But here we have exactly the limitiation of numbers I've spoken about - "two to each man". Those javelins described seems to have been cerit/djerid/jerid/jereed-like: Djerid (weapon) - Wikipedia https://worcester.emuseum.com/internal/media/dispatcher/36543/resize:format=full;jsessionid=F7ED9951138AACF942832C0206101295
which the Slavs have used historically also. [Here short old very low quality video showing and explaining a Slavic jerid - regrettably only in Polish - build, wood (hazel or ash), length, weighting and the way to throw it Dziryt budowa - YouTube - sorry, this was the best I could find].

Beyond that generally the woods South of the Danube tend not to be very dense. "densely wooded, narrow, and steep places" seems more like ravines than real woods.

And as : "Short bows naturally have shorter draw lengths than long bows" (Short Bow Vs. Long Bow (sportsrec.com) ) and "Arrow length refers to draw length plus about 2 inches. " (Draw Length vs Arrow Length Explained - Archery for Beginners ) the use of "short arrows" does exclude the use of a longbow - sorry Haerangil - at least in this reported case - which makes sense for a wooded area - where the possible range is naturally limited by the trees anyway. And as I've stated before, even a short arrow is enough to bring down a human, but not necessary an orc, who are generally more robust.

The Strategikon advises to attack the Slavs in winter, because the defoliated trees made ambushes harder. So it's not that lightly forested, or might not have been so at the time.

I found no description of the javelins besides short. The number of javelins are not that unusual. The later "Praecepta Militaria" (attributed to Nikephoros II Phokas) says two to three javelins to a man. I do not know if they used the amentum. The amentum strap is a alternative to the atlatl.

We should also be aware that not all short bows are weak. And if the Slavs used poison, the draw-strength don't have to be as great.

 

[Odola]

-The Bow of Bregor is a later heirloom of Numenor, it is an artefact of Ladros... we COULD have Beren as the one who takes it up and saves it... or we could just ignore it and say it somehow survived with one of the refugees from Ladros.Personally i think it woukd be cool to tie it in with beren's story... not that i have any personal hate for Atlatls!

As I said a bow does not have to exclude an atlatl as a sword might not exclude a wooden club - Beren clearly has both of the latter.
In a context where there are giant spiders as neighbours an incentive to keep ones' higher caliber weapon in use still is present.

Also in a band of 12 some might specialise for some weapon over the other, I might imagine even someone carrying a bear spear with him as his very own speciality - huge as it is.

So Beren has two bows? Feasible.

-the grey dwarven hauberk... this is from the lay of leithies i believe, it is a piece of nogrodic origin and originally worn by Barahir... beren might take it after his father? But he'd most likely lose it in dungortheb then i guess?

Not buried with Barahir? Somehow it seems difficult to me to see Beren take it off, especially with Barahir's hand having been cut.

-the kitchen knife of Angband is a relic from lost tales... i believe Beren tookmit when he was a slave of Tevildo's cook. I guess we can ignore it for silmfilm, or maybe he somehow steals such a onife to try or plan defend himself at tze dungeons of Tol in Gaurhoth... anyway it is ot an important item as it gets replaced by Angrist!

Beren could take it in Angband it to replace the broken Angrist so he is not wholly defenseless when he leaves. Which would make Beren and Luthien leave through the kitchen of Angband - would be an interesting place to see: "Hell's Kitchen".

-wooden club.Beren uses this weapon in dorthonion to slay orcs, seemingly after he has lost his former, better equipment somehow.It is not an important weapon but a necessity weapon, its only function in the tale was to show what a great fighter Beren was as he slew orcs and wolves with just a wooden club! I guess we might use it or ignore it, however i am certain he has lost it already when he stumbles into Doriath

This could be even the spear-thrower when one's darts are gone and remembered as a club when retold by next generations unfamiliar with one. Or a broken off twig in necessity. Whatever works.

-mighty shield and spear - these are Barahirs weapons which he zsed to save Finrod, Berens equipment may have been the same i guess, but probably not anymore in Doriath.wall of spears is his tactic,mso most likely a very largevweapon, one would use against cavalry or huge creatures

Doubt Beren would manage to get those down the sheer precipices of Ered Gorgoroth. But he could slide down the mountains with the camp dog on the shield before going over the edge down - in a hommage to movie Legolas. (Always time for some fun in the snow. )

-spear.Beren uses this weapon against Carcharoth... i believe it is mist likely an elven spear,either of Doriathrin or Greenelvish making.

A bear spear of the Sindar. O.K.

-Orc spear.Almost certainly looted from the orc camp Finrods company ambush... also as certainly lost duringbthe confrontation wirh Sauron.

Clear.

Berens bow.Along with Dagmor his wePon in Dorthonion, in the other version where he does not only use a wooden club.Could be the same as bregors bow or just could be his own bow.Possibly lost in Dungortheb or even before.

Beren might have two bows, not much of a problem, you get the bow string of at one end, wind it around, put it in the quiver and have a spare one. A wise move.

-Dagmor. This is Berens weapon in Dorthonion along with his bow.either lternative to his clubnor before, so he looses it, either alteady in Dorthonion or in Dungortheb, he seemongly doesn'tbhave it in Doriath anymore.

It should fight darkenss according to its name - so maybe broken fighing the spiders?
Or is it a wedding gift from Melian? Named to commemorate Beren's deeds? A left-handed one, as Beren lost his hand (actually, which one was that lost one?)? Buried then with Beren's body after his first death? - BTW is his body buried after his first death? Has it been handed over to his mother in Brethil for burial? Elves do not have cementeries (the Noldor have some burrows or mausoleums for great heros, but I do not think Sindor do?) Is Dior being rejected because he has been conceived from Beren's restored "new" body that has not been born from Beren's human parents?

 

[Odola]

The Strategikon advises to attack the Slavs in winter, because the defoliated trees made ambushes harder. So it's not that lightly forested, or might not have been so at the time.

The undergrowth might have foliage too.

I found no description of the javelins besides short. The number of javelins are not that unusual. The later "Praecepta Militaria" (attributed to Nikephoros II Phokas) says two to three javelins to a man. I do not know if they used the amentum. The amentum strap is a alternative to the atlatl.

As I said, javelins ARE limited in number for one person. Amentum does not change the limited number nor the long end sticking out in the back. But it for sure helps to throw the javelin more efficiently. If somebody from Barahir's band were to use javelins, amentums fixed to them would be highly advisable.

We should also be aware that not all short bows are weak. And if the Slavs used poison, the draw-strength don't have to be as great.

Not weak. But generally with a shorter range - if not recurve bows.

 

[Haerangil]

As I said a bow does not have to exclude an atlatl as a sword might not exclude a wooden club - Beren clearly has both of the latter.
In a context where there are giant spiders as neigbours the impulse to keep ones' higher caliber weapon in use still is present.

Also in a band of 12 some might specialise for some weapon over the other, I might imagine even someone carrying a bear spear with him as his very own speciality - huge as it is.

So Beren has two bows? Feasible.



Not buried with Barahir? Somehow it seems difficult to me to see Beren take it off, especially with Barahir's hand having been cut.



Beren could take it in Angband it to replace the broken Angrist so he is not wholly defenseless when he leaves. Which would make Beren and Luthien leave through the kitchen of Angband - would be an intersting place to see. - "Hell's Kitchen".



This could be even the spear-thrower when one's dart are gone and remembered as a club when retold by next generetions unfamiliar with one. Or a broken off twig in necessity. Whatever works.



Doubt Beren would manage to get those down the sheer precipices of Ered Gorgoroth. But he could slide down the moutains with the camp dog on the shield before going over the edge down - in a hommage to movie Legolas. (Always time for some fun in the snow. )



A bear spear of the Sindar. O.K.



Clear.



Beren might have two bows, not much of a problem, you get the bow string of at one end, wind it around, put it in the quiver and have a spare one. A wise move.



It should fight darkenss according to its name - so maybe broken fighing the spiders? Or is it a wedding gift from Melian? Named to commemorate Beren's deeds? A left-handed one, as Beren lost his hand (actually, which one was that lost one?)? Buried then with Beren's body after his first death? - BTW is his body buried after his first death? Has it been handed over to his mother in Brethil for burial? Elves do not have cementeries (the Noldor have some burrows or mausoleums for great heros, but I do not think Sindor do?) Is Dior being rejected because he has been conceived from Beren's restored "new" body that was not born from his human parents?

Oh, just suggestions, i am not adamant in any of these points,I just wish to emphasize that Dagmor explicitly was Berens weapon in dorthonion, so most likely not a doriathrin gift! Perhaps a noldoric weapon, one the feanorians equipped their beorian auxiliaries with...

On Sindarin burial tradition... Sarch implies a flat grave, Sarnas Cairns, possibly atop a hill? But the Elves of Doriath knew mounds too... so i guess their larger graves would include tombs.

 

[Odola]

Oh, just suggestions, i am not adamant in any of these points,

Neither am I. Just enganging with the valuable data that you've provided.

I just wish to emphasize that Dagmor explicitly was Berens weapon in dorthonion, so most likely not a doriathrin gift! Perhaps a noldoric weapon, one the feanorians equipped their beorian auxiliaries with...

Yes, but it seem to accomplish little to deserve its name. It seems not to pay off. That is my problem with it.

On Sindarin burial tradition... Sarch implies a flat grave, Sarnas Cairns, possibly atop a hill? But the Elves of Doriath knew mounds too... so i guess their larger graves would include tombs.

But would they not have send Beren's body to his peole for burial - given the proximity? The Sindar certainly do not follow Bëorim burial rites and ceremonies? Doubt Luthien would have really cared for the burial itself?

 

[Haerangil]

Neither am I. Just enganging with the valuable data that you've provided.


Yes, but it seem to accomplish little to deserve its name. It seems not to pay off. That is my problem with it.



But would they not have send Beren's body to his peole for burial - given the proximity? The Sindar certainly do not follow Bëorim burial rites and ceremonies? Doubt Luthien would have really cared for the burial itself?

What do we know of the burial traditions of the edain?

Beren buried his father in a flat grave with a small stone cairn above...
But was thatbtheir true ancestral burial tradition or was it just a necessity burial, for he wasn't able to perform a more proper rite/elaborate grave?

 

[Odola]

What do we know of the burial traditions of the edain?

Beren buried his father in a flat grave with a small stone cairn above...
But was thatbtheir true ancestral burial tradition or was it just a necessity burial, for he wasn't able to perform a more proper rite/elaborate grave?

I would think the latter, as he has had time only until nighfall. But he could have cut or even shaven off his hair.

 

[Haerangil]

Do they do that stuff?

If we do not know of their rites, we may invent something...

The Beorians are very much like the old hebrews aren't they? Could there be something we might borrow?

Cutting off head hair reminds me of two things, Vana (?) cutting her long hair and the orcs shaving their thralls heads, first thing could be taken as a sign of modesty or piety, second one of degrading and humiliation. Maybe not a good symbolism?

The Edain of Beleriand were related to the culture that originated the barrow downs in Eriador...
Those were barrows, burial mounds, tumuli... and megaliths

Something known or interesting from megalithic burial customs we know and could borrow?

 

[Odola]

Do they do that stuff?

If we do not know of their rites, we may invent something...

The Beorians are very much like the old hebrews aren't they? Could there be something we might borrow?

Cutting off head hair reminds me of two things, Vana (?) cutting her long hair and the orcs shaving their thralls heads, first thing could be taken as a sign of modesty or piety, second one of degrading and humiliation. Maybe not a good symbolism?

It is an old sign of mourning when done to oneself willingly. It is quite dramatic and visible from afar. It is a self-humilation to show one's current situation in society as a mourning person with its tabus and special rights.