Script Discussion S06E06

Nicholas Palazzo

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
This episode dealing with the capture of Finrod, Beren & Co by Sauron, as well as Luthien's arrival in Nargothrond will be discussed on August 5 (maybe) , @ 8 PM ET.
 
Last edited:
Question:

Who cames up with the idea of the orc disguise and which orc camp do they ambush? How do they go about it? What is Beren's contribution?
 
Odola said:
Question:

Who cames up with the idea of the orc disguise and which orc camp do they ambush? How do they go about it? What is Beren's contribution?
Click to expand...

Beren's experience as an outlaw would certainly lend towards his being the source of the idea, though Finrod might magically elaborate upon it.

As to which camp, I'm not sure there is a list of camps to choose from. However, I think it likely that our story would be better served by having it be a patrol they come upon then a camp.
 
There was a discussion in casting about Finrod's companions. I have copied it over here.
Odola said:
I propose that while in Sauron's prison Finrod - knowing of his own near death and having nor offsping on his own (yet) declares that the offspring of his comrades who die with him would carry on his name in ME and be given the honorific title "of the House of Finrod" as a sign of their fathers' loyalty to their king (maybe even mentioning that they are more faithfull to him than his own family - seeing that no one from Nargothrond bothered to come to his rescue when the news of his capture must have reached them). Beren would be the one witnessing this and passing on the message of the decree to the families in Nargothrond once his is back in Doriath or even before when he is in Brethil recovering.
Click to expand...
Nicholas Palazzo said:
I do like that. It ties the issue up in a neat bow. It'll depend on if there is a natural place to put it, but I'll try to keep it in mind.
Click to expand...
Odola said:
If we see Inglor die as one example of the companions being killed and we before have been shown little Gildor kissing him good-bye at taking leave from Nargothrond, then Iglor's death would be a natural place for Finrod to declare this in a moment of bitterness and grief. But I am not yet sure how exactly the deaths of the comrades will be handled in the end? There were several ideas, as far I do remember.
Click to expand...
Nicholas Palazzo said:
Yeah, the issue is that our focus in the scene is on Finrod and Beren. The death of the other prisoners happens off-screen but nearby. Let me get the thread for the episode in question started and we can discuss it there.
Click to expand...
kanji_d said:
You're gonna make me tear up... gosh I love Gildor...
Click to expand...
kanji_d said:
If we follow the suggestion that Guilin is one of the companions, that does put us under some obligation to introduce Gwindor now - I seem to recall us kicking the can on that to this or next season but since Finduilas has been introduced I don't see too many issues with it. We don't know much about his life (the Lay of the Children of Hurin puts him in Nargothrond while Turin is there, but it's a passing mention and never returns in the later tellings afaik).
Click to expand...
 
kanji_d said:
You're gonna make me tear up... gosh I love Gildor...
Click to expand...
kanji_d said:
If we follow the suggestion that Guilin is one of the companions, that does put us under some obligation to introduce Gwindor now - I seem to recall us kicking the can on that to this or next season but since Finduilas has been introduced I don't see too many issues with it. We don't know much about his life (the Lay of the Children of Hurin puts him in Nargothrond while Turin is there, but it's a passing mention and never returns in the later tellings afaik).
Click to expand...

As a reminder, Gwindor and his now-captive brother were introduced in Season 5 Episodes 12 and 13. We kicked the can on the Gwindor/ Finduilas relationship, which will be a story for next season.

Their father has not been introduced, so it would be possible to make him one of the companions.
If we do that, AND have Finrod declare his dying companions his kin, that would mean that Gwindor or Gildor could be considered Finrod's heir. So we have to be careful there. Whatever Finrod says can justify 'Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod', but can't leave Orodreth challengers to the throne.
 
MithLuin said:
Whatever Finrod says can justify 'Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod', but can't leave Orodreth challengers to the throne.
Click to expand...

Also Finrod has officially abdicated. That could let his "line" in a position like the Feanorians -"dispossessed". If we wished to elaborate on that we could let Finrod say something like his "family places kingship over kinship" and "let Orodreth be king, but you are my kin from now on." Finrod himself places his honour duty over his kingship, so he might be bitter at that moment: "To each their choice."
 
Last edited:
Just asking, but when people talk of the house of X, that doesnot necessarily mean that they are the sons or daughters of that person, right?
 
Vibes said:
Just asking, but when people talk of the house of X, that doesnot necessarily mean that they are the sons or daughters of that person, right?
Click to expand...


Never saw it used differently in Tolkien besides by Gildor. He seems the odd one out. That what we try to explain - if we find time and place for it, that is.
 
Last edited:
And even then, Gildor is rooted in the pre-LOTR legendarium when Finrod was Inglor and Finarfin was Finrod (this is before the moment when we get the first identification with of Sauron with the Necromancer and the story of Beren and Luthien - see HOME VII.10). Presumably, when Tolkien wrote Gildor in, he wasn't quite connecting it to the story of the Silmarillion. Connecting to the characters, yes, but not the story. Hence why he could have said Inglor-Finrod had children to give the impression of depth present throughout LOTR. The fact that he never went back to change it in his multitudinous Silmarillion revisions afterwards is strange, though not unsurprising given how much he was working on.

Making Gildor "of the house of Finrod" also has the problem of maybe making Gildor High King after Gil-Galad... or perhaps he would even have a claim to it before. There are a few ways to resolve this:
  1. Finrod, ever caring for his people, makes a final decree to call either the ten companions (or possibly even the whole of Nargothrond, which I think might be interesting) the House of Finrod, as a symbol of his love. "House," in this case, is not a matter of lineage but they literally live in the same house (well, cave, but the symbol of Nargothrond as Finrod's sanctuary for his people is the same). If we choose our words carefully, we can ensure that Kingships pass through the line of Finwë, not the house of Finwë.
  2. Also an interesting idea is that if Gildor is young enough, Orodreth can become as father to him and the other children of the ten companions. This cleverly bypasses the issue of Orodreth's succession (since Gil-Galad is already his eldest), and Orodreth can confer on them the House of Finrod epithet.
  3. If any of the children of the ten companions do have a claim to the High Kingship, there is of course an opportunity in Season Whatever-After-The-War-of-Wrath for the Noldor to discuss if they actually need a High King. They eventually do, but Gildor could stand as representative for those who don't want a High King, joined by the other of the children of the ten (loyal to the diplomatic Finrod and/or the anti-political Orodreth, they might see the High Kingship as an unnecessary formality that only serves to foster division). Then, after the War of the Las Alliance, they revisit this, and with no remaining descendants of Finwë, nobody really wanting the title, and their numbers much reduced, they end up fracturing into small communities in Lindon, Imladris, Eregion, to the situation mostly like that in the rest of the Third Age.
 
kanji_d said:
And even then, Gildor is rooted in the pre-LOTR legendarium when Finrod was Inglor and Finarfin was Finrod (this is before the moment when we get the first identification with of Sauron with the Necromancer and the story of Beren and Luthien - see HOME VII.10). Presumably, when Tolkien wrote Gildor in, he wasn't quite connecting it to the story of the Silmarillion. Connecting to the characters, yes, but not the story. Hence why he could have said Inglor-Finrod had children to give the impression of depth present throughout LOTR. The fact that he never went back to change it in his multitudinous Silmarillion revisions afterwards is strange, though not unsurprising given how much he was working on.

Making Gildor "of the house of Finrod" also has the problem of maybe making Gildor High King after Gil-Galad... or perhaps he would even have a claim to it before. There are a few ways to resolve this:
  1. Finrod, ever caring for his people, makes a final decree to call either the ten companions (or possibly even the whole of Nargothrond, which I think might be interesting) the House of Finrod, as a symbol of his love. "House," in this case, is not a matter of lineage but they literally live in the same house (well, cave, but the symbol of Nargothrond as Finrod's sanctuary for his people is the same). If we choose our words carefully, we can ensure that Kingships pass through the line of Finwë, not the house of Finwë.
  2. Also an interesting idea is that if Gildor is young enough, Orodreth can become as father to him and the other children of the ten companions. This cleverly bypasses the issue of Orodreth's succession (since Gil-Galad is already his eldest), and Orodreth can confer on them the House of Finrod epithet.
  3. If any of the children of the ten companions do have a claim to the High Kingship, there is of course an opportunity in Season Whatever-After-The-War-of-Wrath for the Noldor to discuss if they actually need a High King. They eventually do, but Gildor could stand as representative for those who don't want a High King, joined by the other of the children of the ten (loyal to the diplomatic Finrod and/or the anti-political Orodreth, they might see the High Kingship as an unnecessary formality that only serves to foster division). Then, after the War of the Las Alliance, they revisit this, and with no remaining descendants of Finwë, nobody really wanting the title, and their numbers much reduced, they end up fracturing into small communities in Lindon, Imladris, Eregion, to the situation mostly like that in the rest of the Third Age.
Click to expand...

Are this not mixing up the High Kingship and "normal" kingship? Orodreth became King of Nargothrond, not the High King, after Finrod's death. Is Finrod ever thinking of the High Kingship in his "extended" line? I do not think he does.
 
I'm mostly thinking of the post-Orodreth line, which includes Gil-Galad. Finrod isn't thinking of the High Kingship, you're right, which is why it's a problem we might have to solve. If people have a claim on the normal kingship, it follows they might have a claim on the High Kingship once the line of Fingolfin dies out (which, as we know, it does). I'm coming up with ways of resolving that potential issue. The immediate succession to Orodreth is, I think, an easier problem to solve.
 
kanji_d said:
I'm mostly thinking of the post-Orodreth line, which includes Gil-Galad. Finrod isn't thinking of the High Kingship, you're right, which is why it's a problem we might have to solve. If people have a claim on the normal kingship, it follows they might have a claim on the High Kingship once the line of Fingolfin dies out (which, as we know, it does). I'm coming up with ways of resolving that potential issue. The immediate succession to Orodreth is, I think, an easier problem to solve.
Click to expand...

If Finrod says "let Orodreth be king but you are my kin", then it is clear the title is meant as a honorific and not affecting political succession. Finrod does not want to cause the offspring of his companions to be involved in future succession fights - that would not be a blessing but a curse.
 
Vibes said:
Just asking, but when people talk of the house of X, that does not necessarily mean that they are the sons or daughters of that person, right?
Click to expand...

Not necessarily, but usually it's a reference to lineage of some sort. So, in the Appendices, we see references to the "House of Finarfin" referring to Galadriel and her brothers - those are direct children of Finarfin. But in other places, we see a reference to the House of Fëanor being 'the Dispossessed' - this includes his sons, obviously, but also Celebrimbor...his grandson. Also, Celebrimbor uses the 8-pointed star, or Star of Fëanor, to indicate that he is of the House of Fëanor. It appears on the West Gate of Moria, and Gandalf explains the meaning of that part of the decoration in the text:

J.R.R._Tolkien_-_Doors_of_Durin.jpg



But it is also the case that an entire group of people (not all of whom are direct descendants of the leader) can be referred to as the "House of -". So, for instance, with the Edain, we have the House of Bëor, the House of Hador, and the House of Haleth. While the members of those houses are related (ie, they travelled together and married mostly within the group for multiple generations), they are not all literally children of Bëor (or Hador, or Haleth - who had no children of her own).


So. Could "House of Finrod" just mean "From Nargothrond"? I suppose. But it's not like that is how elves describe themselves in other places. Also, as Dillon explained, as written, "Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod" means "Star-lord son of Inglor of the House of Finrod"...but what that meant was "Star-lord son of Finrod of the House of Finarfin" (to update the names in the family trees). So, yes, it meant Gildor was supposed to be Felagund's son, and therefore "of the House of" just indicated his paternal grandfather. It obviously doesn't mean that, and we aren't going to make that family tree happen...but we can try to preserve the line in the published Lord of the Rings and find a new meaning for it. There is a way to include Inglor (father of Gildor) in our story this season, and we've suggested making him one of Finrod's companions to show his loyalty to Finrod. So, 'of the House of Finrod' now (in our story) does not mean "Son of Finrod", no, but does not just mean "anyone from Nargothrond," either. It's designating these 10 guys who went with Finrod on his final quest and died with him.
 
What I think such a handling of this matter would prevent is to make Finrod looking like: "my companions are all dying - yeah, whatever, Beren is the only one that counts here..."

I know Finrod has the premonition about the quest leading to his own death but still being eaten alive by werewolves (in his formerly very own basement- of all places) might not be exactly what he has anticipated for his people - those who were true to him.

He might feel disgraced himself by having lead them to such a disgraceful death. They were headed to face Angband with him - at least that would have been heroic.

So he might fell compelled to make it up to them and to the families left behind by honouring them - by bestowing them and their descendants an official post-mortem title of honour.

[Even if we treat them - following the texts - as "disposable companions" - he himself should not - imho. ]
 
Last edited:
I rather like the idea of playing up Sauron stripping them of their dignity even in death... feels very Sauronic.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
You may recall that in the story as planned, this is dealt with by having Beren be the only one in the room with him.
Click to expand...

(Sorry, there were several ideas thrown around and I've ended up unsure, what exact constellation the talk ultimately resulted in and how binding it was).
But Finrod and Beren still do know what happens to the others? Is not the whole aim of Sauron's arrangement of letting the werewolves eat them up one by one not to terrorize Finrod himself into submission? - How could that work if Finrod does not helplessly witness what happens to his men?
 
Last edited:
Odola said:
(Sorry, there were several ideas thrown around and I've ended up unsure, what exact constellation the talk ultimately resulted in and how binding it was).
But Finrod and Beren still do know what happens to the others? Is not the whole aim of Sauron's arrangement of letting the werewolves eat them up one by one not to terrorize Finrod himself into submission? - How could that work if Finrod does not helplessly witness what happens to his men?
Click to expand...
Yes, Finrod and Beren know what happens to the others.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top