Script Discussion S06E06

Yes, Finrod and Beren know what happens to the others.

Ok. So whatever their specific accommodation pattern - my main point remains unchanged - it would be out of character for Finrod not to show a strong emotional reaction at his men's death. So a moment showing it should be included anyway - imho it would feel very strange to leave this moment out of our story. I think some time to cover that must be found, however much time-constrained we are otherwise.
 
Last edited:
Ok. So whatever their specific accommodation pattern - my main point remains unchanged - it would be out of character for Finrod not to show a strong emotional reaction at his men's death. So a moment showing it should be included anyway - imho it would feel very strange to leave this moment out of our story. I think some time to cover that must be found, however much time-constrained we are otherwise.
Yes, of course. The question is that whether or not a speech about "they shall be henceforth members of the House of Finrod" can be performed naturally in that moment, not whether or not Finrod can react to it.
 
Yes, of course. The question is that whether or not a speech about "they shall be henceforth members of the House of Finrod" can be performed naturally in that moment, not whether or not Finrod can react to it.

Would that not be an emotional reaction both fitting the circumstances and Finrod - beyond the standard "I am so sorry" and some added self-loathing?
 
Last edited:
Would that not be an emotional reaction both fitting the circumstances and Finrod - beyond the standard "I am so sorry" and some added self-loathing?

Perhaps. It could also feel odd and out of place. It would need set up, which takes time away from other matters. I'm not saying we can't do it, just that it would need some consideration as the episode structure was built.
 
Perhaps. It could also feel odd and out of place. It would need set up, which takes time away from other matters. I'm not saying we can't do it, just that it would need some consideration as the episode structure was built.

How much extra setup? Little Gildor kissing Inglor good-bye at leave-taking, Orodreth being prevented by the C-bros from trying to rescue Finrod once the news of his capture arrives in Nargothrond - most things we have to show anyway?
 
How much extra setup? Little Gildor kissing Inglor good-bye at leave-taking, Orodreth being prevented by the C-bros from trying to rescue Finrod once the news of his capture arrives in Nargothrond - most things we have to show anyway?

I would say that one thing which would have to be specifically called out is Finrod's lack of an heir. This could be a bit awkward since everyone in Nargothrond knows that.
 
I would say that one thing which would have to be specifically called out is Finrod's lack of an heir. This could be a bit awkward since everyone in Nargothrond knows that.

Would have to be done anyway as we have to establish Orodreth as the "heir presumptive". The C-bros can mention that to Celebrimbor praising him for prudently having made friends with him - something they themselves have not necessary forseen as important.
 
Would have to be done anyway as we have to establish Orodreth as the "heir presumptive". The C-bros can mention that to Celebrimbor praising him for prudently having made friends with him - something they themselves have not necessary forseen as important.

It wouldn't _have_ to be mentioned explicitly in either case. People don't typically tell each other things that everyone knows.
 
It wouldn't _have_ to be mentioned explicitly in either case. People don't typically tell each other things that everyone knows.

? Have the C-bros ever before had a reason to think about the matter? Are they not planning to take over Nargothrond now? Is Celegorm not in need to have everything explained to him several times over? Are they not discussing their plan and their current situation?
 
Last edited:
? Have the C-bros ever before had a reason to think about the matter? Are they not planning to take over Nargothrond now? Is Celegorm not in need to have everything explained to him several times over? Are they not discussing their plan and their current situation?

Well that's just it. We may or may not get a scene in which the C-bros discuss their evil plan.
 
They have a discussion in E05. Based upon that conversation, what do you suggest they have further to discuss.

Thanks for the hint:

Script Outline - S06E05
Scene 4: Nargothrond - Celegorm, Curufin, and Celebrimbor discuss Beren’s arrival. Celegorm and Curufin are confused why Beren gets a private audience and special treatment. Celebrimbor tells his father and uncle about the Oath of Barahir. They realize that Beren is here looking for help, and recognize that Finrod might be inclined to do things for Beren that he would not do for the Fëanoreans. So if they can recruit Beren, that wins them Finrod’s resources.


Would Orodreth's position and Finrod not having any other heir not naturally have comed up as a side remark in this discussion allready?
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the hint:

Script Outline - S06E05
Scene 4: Nargothrond - Celegorm, Curufin, and Celebrimbor discuss Beren’s arrival. Celegorm and Curufin are confused why Beren gets a private audience and special treatment. Celebrimbor tells his father and uncle about the Oath of Barahir. They realize that Beren is here looking for help, and recognize that Finrod might be inclined to do things for Beren that he would not do for the Fëanoreans. So if they can recruit Beren, that wins them Finrod’s resources.


Would Orodreth's position and Finrod not having any other heir not naturally have comed up as a side remark in this discussion allready?

It isn't assumed in the conversation that Finrod is going to go off and leave Orodreth in charge. That doesn't become the direction until much later in the episode.
 
It isn't assumed in the conversation that Finrod is going to go off and leave Orodreth in charge. That doesn't become the direction until much later in the episode.

Does it need to? Orodreth is the one Celebrimbor gets his info about Finrod's Oath from, so Orodreth's position in relation to Finrod and Orodreth's current position in Finrods' court has at least to been mentioned in passing?
 
Does it need to? Orodreth is the one Celebrimbor gets his info about Finrod's Oath from, so Orodreth's position in relation to Finrod and Orodreth's current position in Finrods' court has at least to been mentioned in passing?

Not in that episode. Why would it be?
 
Recall that the concept of 'heirs' is not alien to elves...but not all that pertinent, either. It's not a question of needing an heir. For instance, Finrod was king of Nargothrond when he met Bëor, and he's still king of Nargothrond when Beren, Bëor's great-great-great-great-grandson comes to visit 120 years later. So, yes, Orodreth is Finrod's nephew. Finrod's brothers are dead and he has no children. Orodreth is, therefore, heir apparent, and also currently at court. But there is no assumption that Orodreth would take over if something were to happen to Finrod - Celegorm and Curufin are banking on taking over themselves.

But more importantly, no one other than Finrod thinks that anything is going to happen to Finrod. Finrod has survived multiple battles already, and he's currently safely at home in Nargothrond. He founded Nargothrond. He has always been king of Nargothrond. There is no reason to think that Nargothrond would ever have any other king. Finrod leaving to go on a quest doesn't mean he won't be king - he has gone on many journeys since the founding of Nargothrond. Finrod takes off his crown at the end of Episode 5 because he realizes his people do not support him. He is not actually their leader any longer. He has been usurped, and takes a 'fine, then' approach to that situation.

In other words, Finrod abdicating the throne and placing the crown on Orodreth's head before leaving on the quest is a surprise to everyone. Celegorm and Curufin were building up political power, in the hopes of commanding Nargothrond's military forces. They were not under the delusion that either of them would be named King of Nargothrond at any point! But Orodreth is an easier elf to maneuver around than Finrod was, so this development suits their purposes.
 
Recall that the concept of 'heirs' is not alien to elves...but not all that pertinent, either. It's not a question of needing an heir. For instance, Finrod was king of Nargothrond when he met Bëor, and he's still king of Nargothrond when Beren, Bëor's great-great-great-great-grandson comes to visit 120 years later. So, yes, Orodreth is Finrod's nephew. Finrod's brothers are dead and he has no children. Orodreth is, therefore, heir apparent, and also currently at court. But there is no assumption that Orodreth would take over if something were to happen to Finrod - Celegorm and Curufin are banking on taking over themselves.

But more importantly, no one other than Finrod thinks that anything is going to happen to Finrod. Finrod has survived multiple battles already, and he's currently safely at home in Nargothrond. He founded Nargothrond. He has always been king of Nargothrond. There is no reason to think that Nargothrond would ever have any other king. Finrod leaving to go on a quest doesn't mean he won't be king - he has gone on many journeys since the founding of Nargothrond. Finrod takes off his crown at the end of Episode 5 because he realizes his people do not support him. He is not actually their leader any longer. He has been usurped, and takes a 'fine, then' approach to that situation.

In other words, Finrod abdicating the throne and placing the crown on Orodreth's head before leaving on the quest is a surprise to everyone. Celegorm and Curufin were building up political power, in the hopes of commanding Nargothrond's military forces. They were not under the delusion that either of them would be named King of Nargothrond at any point! But Orodreth is an easier elf to maneuver around than Finrod was, so this development suits their purposes.

Of course. Still the Feanorians are at least familiar with the heir concept as they are angry at Fingon succeeding Fingolfin - and at Feanor not having officially succeeded Finwe. - So successions and inheritance is something Curufin at least is thinking much about.

Orodreth is Angrod's son so actually a heir to the now lost Dorthonion.
But now in Nargothrond Orodreth is filling the space and role that the king's son would, or not?
Nobody expects him to leave ever or to go and recover Dorthonion?

So from all the C-bros would be saying about the situation in their discussions and from what we can see as the audience ourselves what we know is that: Finrod has no queen, Finrod has no son, Orodreth fills in the place of the Prince of the realm.

I do think this is completely enought as a set up to have Finrod declare his companions his kin when faced with their deaths in Sauron's dungeon.

I do not think any more exposition is really required, the dramatic abdication and leave taking scenes imho provide enough context themselves.
 
Last edited:
Of course. Still the Feanorians are at least familiar with the heir concept as they are angry at Finrod succeeding Fingolfin - and at Feanor not having officially succeeded Finwe. - So successions and inheritance is something Curufin at least is thinking much about.

Orodreth is Angrod's son so actually a heir to the now lost Dorthonion.
But now in Nargothrond Orodreth is filling the space and role that the king's son would, or not?
Nobody expects him to leave ever or to go and recover Dorthonion?

So from all the C-bros would be saying about the situation in their discussions and from what we can see as the audience ourselves what we know is that: Finrod has no queen, Finrod has no son, Orodreth fills in the place of the Prince of the realm.

I do think this is completely enought as a set up to have Finrod declare his companions his kin when faced with their deaths in Sauron's dungeon.

I do not think any more exposition is really required, the dramatic abdication and leave taking scenes imho provide enough context themselves.

Finrod certainly hasn't succeeded Fingolfin in the version of the story we are telling. Fingon has, and he isn't present in E03-06. So I'm not sure how relevant that is to the discussion in question. More importantly, however, that discussion centers around Beren's relationship to Finrod, not Orodreth's. How would the conversation flow from the new things Celebrimbor is telling them to the things the all know already?
 
Finrod certainly hasn't succeeded Fingolfin in the version of the story we are telling. Fingon has, and he isn't present in E03-06. So I'm not sure how relevant that is to the discussion in question. More importantly, however, that discussion centers around Beren's relationship to Finrod, not Orodreth's. How would the conversation flow from the new things Celebrimbor is telling them to the things the all know already?

Sorry, of course Fingon. Will correct this above.
I was talking about heirs and inheritences already being introduced as subjects this season both to the audience and to the Feanorians. The theme is already present enough imho and does not require any special buildup for Finrod to refer to it in the dungeon scene - for me at least.
 
Back
Top