Script Discussion S06E12

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Currently scheduled for 12JAN23 at 8 ET!

Beren and Luthien's wedding reception and The Great Wolf Hunt!

Edit: The recording of the script discussion may be found here: on Signum U's Twitch channel

 

[Odola]

My proposed points:

* dancing - almost everybody except for Luthien and Galadriel - Galadriel is in mourning and Luthien has already danced her share in this series
(would love to see Thingol and Melian have a dance together to honour the occasssion)
* reciprocal culture shock of kinds
* Saeron gets a very negative impression of humans - especially the human women
* Morwen get a very positive impression of Doriath and the royal couple
* Nimloth as part of Galadriel's entourage (no need to be named or to speak, but we should start to get familiar with her face)

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

My proposed points:

* dancing - almost everybody except for Luthien and Galadriel - Galadriel is in mourning and Luthien has alredy danced her share in this series
(would love to see Thingol and Melian have a dance together to honour the occasssion)
* reciprocal culture shock of kinds
* Saeron gets a very negative impression of humans - especially the human women
* Morwen get a very positive impression of Doriath and the royal couple
* Nimloth as part of Galadriel's entourage (no need to be named or to speak, but we should start to get familiar with her face)

Certainly dancing, though I find the idea that Luthien should not dance at her own wedding celebration because she has danced a bunch in our show a little silly.

Definitely some evidence of the differences in cultures, though I think most of that can be done subtextually without any dialogue.

As to Nimloth, I’m not sure that any appearance in this episode will do more to help the audience recognize her than her presence throughout Season 4.

 

[MithLuin]

I think that this episode is the place to show Beren and Lúthien in the briefest of domesticity. I would like to have one scene of them just being a married couple between the end of the celebration and the beginning of the hunt.

Until now, they have not been married. Beren was going through a lot of 'i am not worthy' feelings. But...they are accepted and together and have a home. I want them to just be. . .really happy to be starting their life together in civilization. So much of their time together has been the two of them alone in the woods. Lúthien was fine with the 'To a Shepherdess' lifestyle. Beren, though, had the more practical 'Nymph's Reply to the Shepherd' point of view. He didn't want to carpe diem Lúthien away from her family. Well...here they are, with her family. What does that look like? How is he feeling about life in Doriath? How are they settling in?

And just a note - our show is not going to include a sex scene between them. We can imply that here, though, if we'd like.

 

[Odola]

.
Until now, they have not been married. Beren was going through a lot of 'i am not worthy' feelings. But...they are accepted and together and have a home. I want them to just be. . .really happy to be starting their life together in civilization. So much of their time together has been the two of them alone in the woods. Lúthien was fine with the 'To a Shepherdess' lifestyle. Beren, though, had the more practical 'Nymph's Reply to the Shepherd' point of view. He didn't want to carpe diem Lúthien away from her family. Well...here they are, with her family. What does that look like? How is he feeling about life in Doriath? How are they settling in?

When they come back from the death they move out to Ossiriand. Either Doriath has not suited them here or Luthien can"t stand the place anymore after the trauma of Beren"s death there.

 

[Odola]

Certainly dancing, though I find the idea that Luthien should not dance at her own wedding celebration because she has danced a bunch in our show a little silly.

Maybe. But even if she were to be shown dancing among others imho her performance should not be the focal point. She just has had her performance in front of Morgoth and we will have her song before Mandos shortly.
I think it is the time for others to show off here.

Definitely some evidence of the differences in cultures, though I think most of that can be done subtextually without any dialogue.

Agreed, but this makes it just more difficult to set up for the audience to get the point clearly.

As to Nimloth, I’m not sure that any appearance in this episode will do more to help the audience recognize her than her presence throughout Season 4.

So she was shown in season 4? Good to know, the search engine on the forum has not shown me that before, I have just found her discussed regarding hair colour. But that can only be my clumsiness using the search engine here.
But her rule and her spectacular death is now still 2-3 seasons away while in the in-story-years it is just less than half a century already. Should the audience not be reminded in between of her existance from time to time? A distance of 5 seasons is little much to remember her? I assume the audience should care when the C-bros kill her when it comes?

 

[Icon5235]

My main hope for this episode is that we carry our momentum through till the end of the season.
And as such I am concerned about bogging down the first half of this episode with too many nods or foreshadowings.
In my view, this episode should focus on Beren and Luthien being happy. Being in love. Putting a spotlight on their bliss is an investment into the audience' reaction when Beren is killed during the hunt.
Therefore I would like to keep their happiness front and center as much as possible.
We should definitely see Luthien dance here.
We should see her dance with Beren.
We should see her pulling other people away from what they're doing to join in celebrating her joy.

Now, I agree that there are things that can be useful nods to our upcoming stories. But cameos are like salt, they add flavor, if used sparingly

As such I don't see a lot of use in a Nimloth cameo here. We have time to get the audience familiar with her again down the road. This doesn't feel like a 'Right Now Or Not At All' situation.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

So she was shown in season 4? Good to know, the search engine on the forum has not shown me that before, I have just found her discussed regarding hair colour. But that can only be my clumsiness using the search engine here.
But her rule and her spectacular death is now still 2-3 seasons away while in the in-story-years it is just less than half a century already. Should the audience not be reminded in between of her existance from time to time? A distance of 5 seasons is little much to remember her? I assume the audience should care when the C-bros kill her when it comes?

You know what, I think I somehow conflate her with Celeborn's sister. My apologies. Carry on.

 

[Odola]

You know what, I think I somehow conflate her with Celeborn's sister. My apologies. Carry on.

You mean Galathil original Nimloth's father but in this story her mother?
Galathil was shown still unwed and without a daughter yet?

Remember that Nimloth and Dior wed in 497 when he is just 27 (Dior is born 470 - four years after Luthien's wedding)
but Nimloth must be at least 50 by elvish rules
- this means the Nimloth must be around at the time of Luthien's wedding in 466 (at least 19 by that time if you are willing to make Dior marry an elvish girl which has barely passed the age of consent 31 years from now).

Neither Turin's nor Tuor's stories cover Ossiriand much so there is not much opportunity to introduce Nimloth - as I understand - Beren and Luthien's time in Ossiriand is not feature too much in our story?

Both Dior and Nilmloth are then killed by the C-bros in 506 - which is in 40 years from Luthien's wedding, 9 years after their own wedding, 4 years after Thingol's death and 3 years after Luthien's ultimate 2nd death.

If you go by the extremely young age of Nimloth of 50 at her own wedding then she would be just 59 at her death - very young for an elf, and an elvish queen - to die. Would she be at all accepted to be Doriath's queen at that young an age? Her husband has the excuse of being halfelven but she has not.

A such I postulate for Nimloth to be post 50 already at the time of Luthien's wedding and the simplest, most natural and least cumbersome way is to make her be on of the maids-in-waiting of Galadriel her noble kinswoman. That needs no special accomodations nor explanations in-story. And Galadriel needs some maids-in-waiting anyway, so what's the trouble?

[Still remarkable that both Dior's twins (born 500) and Elwing (born 503 - the year of Luthien's 2nd death and Dior her father becoming King of Doriath) are born after pregnancies of at most 2 years + only 1 year recovery at most. Would be very demanding for any elleth and especially for one only barely over 50 - that would show Dior in not so favourable a light].

Or you decide to get rid of Nimloth altogether as a separate character and just merge her with her mother - let Dior rename Galathil to Nimloth at their falling in love. That way Nimloth would be not acompletely stranger that we have to get attached to fast now to before she is soon to be killed.
Still it would be good to keep in touch with her not to lose the connection completely before her spectacular death.

[so we are nearing the same problem with Nimloth that the RoP has with Celebrian - is she to be born yet she will much too young to be married when we need her to]

 

[Ilana Mushin]

My understanding of SilmFilm chronology so far is that we’ve adjusted birth dates when needed for storytelling purposes. So I don’t think we are required to keep Nimloth and her children’s birth dates the same as the published chronology if there is a problem getting things to line up. I do agree though that there will be time to introduce Nimloth as a character in the next season. She could be ‘present‘ at this wedding but I don’t think we need draw much attention to her yet.

 

[Odola]

My understanding of SilmFilm chronology so far is that we’ve adjusted birth dates when needed for storytelling purposes. So I don’t think we are required to keep Nimloth and her children’s birth dates the same as the published chronology if there is a problem getting things to line up. I do agree though that there will be time to introduce Nimloth as a character in the next season. She could be ‘present‘ at this wedding but I don’t think we need draw much attention to her yet.

Of course we can change it if we decide to. But we we change it, we should decide about it and plan it now - as most of the possible changes would have an effect on our story now. We cannot just have Nimloth fall out the sky in ca 30 years from now fully grown and mature. But we also cannot add in more then 2 decades in the story as otherwise the human lifespans attached to the stories will get all out of sychronisation. So all this requires carefull planning.

In the original timeframe Dior marries Nimloth a year before Turin marries his sister Nienor (Turin then being 34 and Nienor 25). In whatever season we plan to have Turin and Nienor marry, Nimloth should already be an established character by then, or we have changed the timeframe to an extend that the other paraller timeplots to have to be adjusted accordingly. And even if we decide to add 2 extra decades in, then this should be in portions of a few years added in here and there. We have the 4 years saved in Dorthonion which we could start to add in carefully. Still imho it is not enough to introduce Nimloth from a baby - she is an elf, not a human. Imho Luthien's wedding is a most natural and least troublesome event to start that process. And I do agree that there is no "need draw much attention to her yet". She just should start out "being there".

BTW connected to those decissions would be the question if not to remove Elured and Elurin altogether as Elladan and Elrohir were removed from Peter Jackson's movies. Would save us some time, and make Elwing a natural heiress to all of Dior's heirlooms.

 

[David_M_R]

Hmm, but the tragedy of Elured and Elurin is a massive shock, and highlights just how far the Fëanorians have fallen. One might not need to establish their characters massively, but show Dior/Nimloth+family scenes. In movies the lost/refuge child is a rather effective trope even with minimal establishing screentime. For instance the girl in the red coat in Schindler's List. Since Elwing is the oldest (contra Arwen and her brothers), they aren't necessarily going to get a lot of lines/dramatisation.

 

[Odola]

Hmm, but the tragedy of Elured and Elurin is a massive shock, and highlights just how far the Fëanorians have fallen. One might not need to establish their characters massively, but show Dior/Nimloth+family scenes. In movies the lost/refuge child is a rather effective trope even with minimal establishing screentime. For instance the girl in the red coat in Schindler's List. Since Elwing is the oldest (contra Arwen and her brothers), they aren't necessarily going to get a lot of lines/dramatisation.

[Still remarkable that both Dior's twins (born 500) and Elwing (born 503 -

Timeline/First Age

.

tolkiengateway.net

In the original they seem not. At the Fall of Doriath the twin boys are 6 while Elwing is 3. So why she has all the Dior's heirlooms with her is unclear. We could of course change the seniority. But if we make them all be born later - to make Dior marry later compared to Turin's story - to have more time to establish Nimloth's character, then we have to adjust e.g. the Tuor's Gondolin timeline adding the additional years here and there accordingly. Otherwise we will get the stories desychronised against each other.

We must be carefull not to end up with Elwing too young to birth Elros and Elrond in time (532 when Elwing is 29 after 7 years marriage to Earendil - both Earendil and Elwing were 22 at their wedding - [so Elwing's pregnacy seem to take longer then both of her mother's Nimloth's were]. Were we to delay Dior's and Nimloth's wedding for 10 years to make more room to introduce Nimloth as a character Elwing would end up 19 at Elros' and Elrond's birth - and 12 at her own wedding! We surely do not want this?

That is the reason why delaying Dior's story against Turin's and Tuor's is not without dangers. Dior's and Nimloth's marriage is relatively short (9 years) and Dior dies very young (36 years old). There is little room to cut from Nimloth's and Dior's story if we wants them still to end up having 3 children. But we make their story start or take longer we delay the Fall of Doriath against the Gondolin timeline (Doriath is supossed to fall in 506 while Gondolin in 510).

What I mean is: we cannot just randomly add or cut years out of the story at completely random places or we might even end up with Elwing still a baby at the time of the 3rd Kinslaying (538 - Elwing should be 35 and Elros and Elrond 6). Which would bring trouble for the Earendil story and the End of the First Age.

We have to think through our timeline changes carefully in advance from now on in the story as the Fall of Doriath is within the reach of a human lifespan now. We are no longer in the comfortable part of the story when we worked with millenia and a century more or less did not matters much.
I am not saying we cannot make changes to the timeline - just saying we should plan them well in advance and keep track of them.

We have to check in the timeine whether there are times when nothing important happens to try to cut out years there and add in where too much happens in the original story for us to cover simultaniously - and then adjust the other plotlines accordingly so they still do fit together in the end.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Another Ep 12 problem:

Beren's funeral after Beren's 1st death
- it takes time for Luthien to die of grief in the original story but I assume we do not wants to show her in despair next to his decomposing corpse. What happens to his 1st body? Where is it buried and according to which customs?

 

[David_M_R]

Huh. Tolkien Gateway drew the family tree a bit wonky then. I should have checked the dates on the respective pages!

 

[Ilana Mushin]

Timeline/First Age

.

tolkiengateway.net

In the original they seem not. At the Fall of Doriath the twin boys are 6 while Elwing is 3. So why she has all the Dior's heirlooms with her is unclear. We could of course change the seniority. But if we make them all be born later - to make Dior marry later compared to Turin's story - to have more time to establish Nimloth's character, then we have to adjust e.g. the Tuor's Gondolin timeline adding the additional years here and there accordingly. Otherwise we will get the stories desychronised against each other.

We must be carefull not to end up with Elwing too young to birth Elros and Elrond in time (532 when Elwing is 29 after 7 years marriage to Earendil - both Earendil and Elwing were 22 at their wedding - [so Elwing's pregnacy seem to take longer then both of her mother's Nimloth's were]. Were we to delay Dior's and Nimloth's wedding for 10 years to make more room to introduce Nimloth as a character Elwing would end up 19 at Elros' and Elrond's birth - and 12 at her own wedding! We surely do not want this?

That is the reason why delaying Dior's story against Turin's and Tuor's is not without dangers. Dior's and Nimloth's marriage is relatively short (9 years) and Dior dies very young (36 years old). There is little room to cut from Nimloth's and Dior's story if we wants them still to end up having 3 children. But we make their story start or take longer we delay the Fall of Doriath against the Gondolin timeline (Doriath is supossed to fall in 506 while Gondolin in 510).

What I mean is: we cannot just randomly add or cut years out of the story at completely random places or we might even end up with Elwing still a baby at the time of the 3rd Kinslaying (538 - Elwing should be 35 and Elros and Elrond 6). Which would bring trouble for the Earendil story and the End of the First Age.

We have to think through our timeline changes carefully in advance from now on in the story as the Fall of Doriath is within the reach of a human lifespan now. We are no longer in the comfortable part of the story when we worked with millenia and a century more or less did not matters much.
I am not saying we cannot make changes to the timeline - just saying we should plan them well in advance and keep track of them.

We have to check in the timeine whether there are times when nothing important happens to try to cut out years there and add in where too much happens in the original story for us to cover simultaniously - and then adjust the other plotlines accordingly so they still do fit together in the end.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Another Ep 12 problem:

Beren's funeral after Beren's 1st death
- it takes time for Luthien to die of grief in the original story but I assume we do not wants to show her in despair next to his decomposing corpse. What happens to his 1st body? Where is it buried and according to which customs?

I’m not sure how long it did take Luthien to leave her body after Beren dies the first time. But it is something to discuss for Ep12 script discussion for sure. Not sure if it is necessary to show a funeral for Beren. It might detract from the pacing of following Luthien to Mandos and her plea before Namo.

 

[Odola]

I’m not sure how long it did take Luthien to leave her body after Beren dies the first time. But it is something to discuss for Ep12 script discussion for sure.

As far I do rmember it took at least several months? We can of course change that.

Not if it is necessary to show a funeral for Beren. It might detract from the pacing of following Luthien to Mandos and her plea before Namo.

If we do not change Luthien's death to follow his only several days later at most we run into the "decaying corpse" problem. Elves do bury their dead too. Melian as a Maia of Lorien might put a spell on it like one was put on the body of Miriel the mother of Feanor. But why would she do it - what for?

Have Emeldir with Morwen and Rian left Brethil for Dor-Lomin before Beren dies the 1st time already? When does she knows of his death? How does the experience of Carcharoth rage and Beren's death contribute to Emeldir's decission to leave Brethil?

 

[MithLuin]

Emeldir et al leaving Brethil will be an Episode 13 storyline, specifically setting up things we need for Season 7. In Episode 12, those who visited Doriath for the wedding will be returning to Brethil.

I imagine that episode 12 will end with Beren's death and farewell to Lúthien. So, Lúthien's death will be a matter for Episode 13.

As for timeline beyond Season 6, that is not within the scope of this thread.

 

[Odola]

I imagine that episode 12 will end with Beren's death and farewell to Lúthien. So, Lúthien's death will be a matter for Episode 13.

O.K so those deaths are apart in our series and that still leaves the problem of a possible Beren's funeral and burial that must be decided on: Does it take place? Accoding to which customs? Do we show it at all, maybe in the tag? Do we just let Beren's body lie there in a meadow slowly decomposing away - whatever - it is still a matter to decide on.

 

[Ilana Mushin]

O.K so those deaths are apart in our series and that still leaves the problem of a possible Beren's funeral and burial that must be decided on: Does it take place? Accoding to which customs? Do we show it at all, maybe in the tag? Do we just let Beren's body lie there in a meadow slowly decomposing away - whatever - it is still a matter to decide on.

We do need to decide how to deal with the Hröar of Beren and Luthien when they return from the dead, but I’m not keen on showing an elaborate funeral ritual. I don’t think the way this will be shown on screen has been worked out yet. However, as I said above, I don’t think we necessarily need to show much of what happens to Beren’s body between his first death and his return. We could open episode 13 with some shots of people weeping/mourning over Beren’s body as he is brought back to Menegroth but I imagine the scenes in Doriath will be related to Thingol’s ‘winter’ rather than what happens to Beren. I can imagine that Elves would not do embalming as part of treatment of their dead (when such deaths arise), especially not the Sindar. We’ve seen Noldor build cairns (eg. Fingolfin‘s tomb), and Beren buries Finrod human-style. But I can see the Sindar leaving dead bodies to be absorbed back into nature, or doing ‘tree-burials’ (an Australian Aboriginal practice) Perhaps Beren could be kept in a cool place (somewhere deep in the caves of Menegroth), while the Elves decide how best to return his body to his family?

 

[Odola]

We do need to decide how to deal with the Hröar of Beren and Luthien when they return from the dead,

A creepy experience - you get reembodied and return to find your previous body still lying around there partially decomposed...