Session 3.09 - S3 Ep 4: Khazad Ai Menu
- Thread starter MithLuin
- Start date
How many other Petty-Dwarves are still alive at this point, besides Mim...?
Wait, wait... Dwarves live about 250-300 years normally, 340 years at the absolute most. How is Mim around during "Meanwhile in Beleriand" and then still alive in year 502 of the Sun when Hurin kills him? That's a span of 2428 years!
Argh I wish I'd caught this earlier.
Is it too late to rename the guy you've been calling "Mim"? If not, the Mim in the Narn is going to have to be a descendant named after him, and he'll have to look different and perhaps call himself "Mim the Fifth" or something so the audience doesn't think he's 2450 years old...
Wait, wait... Dwarves live about 250-300 years normally, 340 years at the absolute most. How is Mim around during "Meanwhile in Beleriand" and then still alive in year 502 of the Sun when Hurin kills him? That's a span of 2428 years!
Argh I wish I'd caught this earlier.
Is it too late to rename the guy you've been calling "Mim"? If not, the Mim in the Narn is going to have to be a descendant named after him, and he'll have to look different and perhaps call himself "Mim the Fifth" or something so the audience doesn't think he's 2450 years old...
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Yes, we are aware that Mim's lifespan isn't that long. What we are doing is making it a hereditary name. So, in Hurin's story, we'll get Mim son of Mim son of Mim or something like that. And he can be the same actor. So, it's like Durin the Deathless, but for the petty-dwarves.
There have to be more petty-dwarves now, in the beginning, so they'll be severely diminished on Amon Rudh.
There have to be more petty-dwarves now, in the beginning, so they'll be severely diminished on Amon Rudh.
amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
That whole word "petty". Is there some older usage Tolkien was going for that is different from what it would mean now?
Richol Richards
Well-Known Member
You mean "little"?
Marielle
Well-Known Member
1) This is a more complex question than I first realized.
[DIGRESSION, BUT WITH A POINT! I PROMISE!]
Considering that Khuzdul was given by Aule to the dwarves and therefore is in some sense sacred, I've long suspected that the language would change much less over the ages than spoken languages, though bastardized slang and mannish vocabulary surely would enter in eventually. Maybe at some point the language becomes "frozen", like Latin did in the early Middle Ages, and becomes a language of court, law, and scholarship more than a spoken language. But I think that process would be very, very slow. Much slower than human languages, and maybe even as slow as elven. [/DIGRESSION]
ANYWAY, because I tend to think of Tolkien cultures in a primarily linguistic lens, I realized I had been assuming that this shared language would create a rather homogeneous culture among dwarrow, but I'm not sure the text supports that -- the Sindar have their differences, as do the Quenya-speaking races, after all. Still, I do think that dwarrow culture would be highly interconnected and lean towards insularity. They're always going to be a minority in M.E., given their low birthrates and dearth of females, and we have plenty of textual evidence for dwarves having an "us-vs-them" mindset. I do think fashion varies from kingdom to kingdom, and there should be some visual distinctions between the Families (though that would probably fade as years went by, due to intermarriage). I think we can show dwarves having vast trading networks that connect their different settlements and kingdoms long before men do, and cultural blending tends to follow trade.
We can't, however, have each dwarven city or kingdom look identical: it's boring and lazy, not to mention confusing for the audience if we ever plan to show more than one dwarrow place. An easy (-ish?) lead to follow here would be the Fathers: the craft best-loved by each Father might give visual clues to their descendants' surroundings: if the Father of the Firebeards, for example, was a glassblower (too on the nose?), than circular shapes and a blending of color and smooth surfaces might be very popular, but things might tend to be more compact or dwarf-sized, whereas if Durin was a stonecarver or mason, well, then it makes sense that his great kingdom has some truly astonishing architecture, but it might be a bit bare besides.
This is too say that I suspect the mores, attitudes, and mindsets of dwarves across Arda are probably rather similar, with the exception perhaps of the petty dwarves, but that their fashion and architecture could vary quite largely, if we wanted.
2) I don't have that much to say here, other than that I agree with Haakon that the dwarves should kick Mim out. I would not have his exile be "the first iniquity the elves inflicted upon the dwarves" but rather come from his own people. Why, though? Is he a weirdo outsider they're happy to see go, or are they assuming he'll gather up his stuff and move back to town? Is it his king who kicks him out to give Thingol the caverns, or is his presence there a surprise to the dwarrow workmen sent to prepare the halls for the elven king?
3) I have the idea of a Sindar scouting party, maybe with Mablung?, hearing the sounds of quarrying, and coming to investigate. It could be a play on the theme of hearing music/singing to new peoples, and establishes dwarves early as hardy, crafty folks, especially since the Sindar don't mine yet.
EDITED IMMEDIATELY TO HAVE: Is it obvious I have thoughts about dwarves? I have thoughts about dwarves.
amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
Yeah. Is Petty simply used meaning little, lesser, small? In stature and/or character?
Or is there something more particular to it - like some specific moral deficit or something?
Basically, "petty-dwarf" is going to sound weird to new viewers. That's where I'm going.
About the name ‘petty-dwarves’. I don’t have English as my native language of course so I can only wonder...does it imply that they are small, insignificant ...or that they complain about unimportant things and quarrel about small grievances? In any case, it sounds derogatory and even if the petty-dwarves themselves use it, they might not have initially. I suggest that other dwarves have given them this name to mock them, and that, if they use it themselves it’s in bitter irony.
I suggest that we hear the name first from the dwarves who kick them out of Menegroth.
I suggest that we hear the name first from the dwarves who kick them out of Menegroth.
2.
I think we have to expand this 'kicking out' and include more than one individual. Mîm should have a family and we should see 10-20 petty-dwarves kicked out of Menegroth. Or maybe we do it differently than we've discussed so far. I think that, if we make this a dwarves vs. petty-dwarves issue, we really don't have to introduce Mîm at all this season. The more I think about it, it complicates things more than it simplifies. We could just show a group of petty-dwarves being kicked out. If we identify the petty-dwarves this season and return to them later (building of Nargothrond for example), it will be easy to introduce Mîm later. If we introduce him now though we will have to explain who the Mîm we encounter later is and how they are related. Since we don't follow the petty-dwarves that closely it's harder to do that.
1.
I agree. But I do think that we should show different approaches towards the elves, so that the Firebeards are more prone to social interaction and are more open and perhaps even talkative. The Broadbeams should tend to be more secretive and keep more to themselves.
3.
Then we have to show a scene when they try to communicate. That's when it gets tricky. I see some kind of meeting where elves show things and tell dwarves their sindarin names, but that's all.
Yes, this is more or less what I've been thinking as well. In my mind, Melian actually advises Thingol to send out a scouting party, but that may be to search for enemies as well as potential allies. The idea could be that there are Avari who might be straying in the borderlands of Beleriand or that there are Sindar that they simply don't keep track of. Alternatively, Melian senses the presence of another kind of people close by. Anyway, I agree, Mablung is sent on a scouting mission along with a rather large group of Sindar. They should absolutely hear dwarves working - if it's mining or constructing a tunnel or a door into the mountain doesn't matter really, or maybe it does - do we want the first impression to be hard workers or craftsmen?
Then we have to show a scene when they try to communicate. That's when it gets tricky. I see some kind of meeting where elves show things and tell dwarves their sindarin names, but that's all.
Oh - both parties, elves and dwarves, should pretty early on, as soon as they can communicate reasonably well, talk about the grwing number of evil beasts and creatures, including orcs, that they've seen. The Sindar have seen orcs in Beleriand, and the dwarves should talk about wolves and fell beasts in the east, that forces the cousins of the Sindar to flee or hide. This is to prepare us for the coming of the Green Elves. (Perhaps this should be in a meeting with Thingol)
Marielle
Well-Known Member
In common usage, "petty" means the later: holding onto grudges for small offenses, taking perverse pleasure in seeing minor enemies suffer, etc. According to the Concise OED, it means "1) trivial. 2) mean; small-minded. 3) minor. Law --> (of a crime) of lesser importance."
Origin is from Middle English, derived from the French petit, or small.
So it is in no way a compliment, ever.
So he is "petty" before he losing his home? It's a possibility. If he's already called "the petty one" by his peers, then it makes sense that his exiled children might claim that term almost as a badge of honor. They could be consumed in their grudges, a bit like how the Feanoreans get consumed by the Oath.
I still think we should consider waiting with the introduction of Mîm and just deal with a group of petty-dwarves this season. I also think that the dwarves and petty-dwarves should have a previous history so when the Firebeards will say ‘oh no, petty-dwarves’ when they find the group in Menegroth.
Marielle
Well-Known Member
I'm fine with Mim being just one of a group. I'm torn about whether he needs to be there at all or anything more than a face in the crowd... We want the audience to know who/what he is when he comes back later, but if we set it up that being a "petty-dwarf" is enough to make them wary, we don't need to have featured him personally in the drama. On the other hand, he'll be more sympathetic if we get his side of the story, if only in his facial expressions, before he enters the story as a villain.
I like the idea that the Firebeards would already know and dislike the petty-dwarves. The Tolkien Gateway theorizes that the petty-dwarves are exiles of several clans, so it's entirely possible that the Firebeards could go "didn't we just kick you out last month? What are you doing back in our king's territory?" and kick them out again.
If he’s there we have to explain later why he’s still alive so long after. If the Firebeards treat them roughly as a group he has some sympathy from the start just from being of that group. We don’t need to see him specifically