Session 3.12 - S3 Ep 7: The Doom of Mandos

3) The attack on the havens is a blitz attack, and the Falathrim won't have much to put against the wolves and wargs and werewolves. They more or less have to run for it, and jump onto the ships. An alternative could be that the Falathrim go to meet the attackers on the field, but are forced to retreat.


Meeting the enemy on the field implies a level of military preparedness that I don't think the Falathrim have. The raid on the havens should look like just that. A raid. Because of the speed at which the werewolves move, they will likely come upon the Havens before the untrained population can organize. It is less of a battle than a scramble, with some pockets of resistance organizing as a rear-guard action.
 
Meeting the enemy on the field implies a level of military preparedness that I don't think the Falathrim have. The raid on the havens should look like just that. A raid. Because of the speed at which the werewolves move, they will likely come upon the Havens before the untrained population can organize. It is less of a battle than a scramble, with some pockets of resistance organizing as a rear-guard action.
Yes, I agree that it seems like the most probable turn of events.
 
So... I don’t know what the correct outline says right now, but I say it would be good if Fëanor decides to take his ships - sorry, the ships - and sail to Middle-earth after the Doom, at the end of this episode.
 
One last thing about Boldog: I don’t think we can put much time on him this episode. We will show the attack on the Falas and use most of the episode on the Noldor. So it’s not going to be a big problem to fill his and the army’s time with activities.
 
One question... Do we have a leader for the werewolf- wargrider army? Who commands Angbands western host?
 
Yes - Sauron is leading this expedition. And the leader of the wolves is Draugluin.



What is the 'everybody loves me' Myers Briggs type? I have never understood Myers Brigg, and have gotten a different result every time I took it. ESTP, ENTP, INTP (and two of those results were on the *same day*, only difference being a shorter and longer version of the test.)

Because, seriously, *everyone* loves Finrod. He is a friend of both Fingon and Maedhros. And the Sindar. And dwarves. And men. And ULMO. He even gets along with Andreth, who is super bitter about his brother jilting her.

Literally the only people who do not like this dude are Celegorm, Curufin, and Sauron. Well, and Mîm, but everyone always forgets about him anyway.
 
Got to attend the session! Notes from today:

Broad adaptation Questions

Sleep of Yavanna
  • Story needs to align internally
  • We have to consolidate the elves food supply with the sleep of Yavanna somehow

Solution:
  1. bring in the Sun and the Moon earlier (everything else awakes when the elves do)
  2. Have starlight be enough to nourish
  3. Have the sleep continue and feed the elves some other way

*To adapt the laws of nature, everything would have to be covered in (attractive) fungus. But then we’d run into problems once the sun rises.
  • We should preserve the concept that Yavanna has not abandoned Middle earth
  • can be achieved by depicting her casting the sleep after the destruction of the Lamps, and then when the elves awaken, she and Varda bless the plants and animals and allow them to thrive under the stars
^ We risk losing the radical nature of the rising of the Sun and the Moon and the significance of its division of the epochs of Arda’s History

Ways we can manage this:
  • emphasize the visual effect of the rising of the Sun and Moon (make it clear that a new age has come in the reaction of the plants, i.e. flowers and blossoms). Visuals as radical as the shift in color in the Wizard of Oz


Doom of Mandos

  • relationship between Valar and Noldor a major theme
  • Only House of Feanor and those who follow bear the wrath

Q: How much of this is Mandos just stating what are the natural consequences of their choices and declaring that these consequences are what the Valar will inflict upon them? I.e. just consequence or actual punishment? Prediction vs. Cursing?

Elements of the Valar’s hand in this
  • “We will fence Valinor against you”
  • The Noldor's experience in Mandos will be changed


Response:

Finarfin

Q: Does Finarfin have any intention of leaving? (He always planned to go back to Valinor?)


Three stages of his decision-making:
  1. Pre Kinslaying
  2. Post Kinslaying, Pre Doom
  3. Post Doom

Pre Kinslaying:
  • This is the turning point for Finarfin
  • he goes to only to convince his people to turn back OR
  • He intends to go, to protect them from the folly (What does he hope to accomplish here?)
  • ^He has to believe that he will get people to follow him, or that he could influence Feanor over time (Basically he’s waiting for heads to cool off, but they don’t)

Post Kinslaying, Pre Doom
  • Completely changes his mind about going, gives up on Feanor
  • Goal now becomes talking as many people as he can out of going

Post Doom
  • Introduces a deadline

*Finarfin doesn’t end up looking weak this way (resolved to turn back before the Doom)

*Foreshadowing of War of Wrath appearance: emphasis on deliverance (Finarfin leads the army of deliverance later [So we’ll need to revisit the Noldor in Valinor storyline at some point…]). Here, deliverance from Feanor’s fey mood.



Fate and Destiny vs Free Will
  • some of the Noldor know they have a calling to ME
  • mixed up with bad choices, though

Q: What’s the difference between Finrod’s desire to rule and Galadriel’s desire to rule?
  • Galadriel’s more questionable. More about being in charge, more about her own power
  • Finrod wants to build something and find new places


Fingolfin

*Mindset Pre Kinslaying, Post Kinslaying, Post Doom

Pre-Kinslaying
  • On board with following Feanor and taking vengeance on Morgoth (Morgoth just killed his dad, so...)

Post Kinslaying
  • Dawning realization of what exactly following Feanor will entail
  • He is himself guilty, feels a degree of shame (doesn’t deserve to return to Valinor, feels he should indeed be an exile after what he did). In a way, he sentences himself.
  • So, two motivations: vengeance and guilt
Q: What is his mindset after the burning of the ships? Why does he still go after that?



Turgon
  • motivated on the premise of protecting Aredhel from the bad influence of Feanor’s sons
  • His unique role is his connection with prophecy. There’s a doom about him.
  • should be wanting to accomplish something. (Turgon should be the center of this concept). Should be most outspoken in favor of going over when they cross the Helceraxe.

*Episode should end with someone bursting in while Finarfin and Fingolfin are talking and tell them the ships are gone. (?)



Attack on Havens

*Retreat or Defeat?
  • Going to the ships should be the original plan (Emphasizes what’s important. i.e. ships vs. city)
  • They don’t flee sooner because they don’t want to leave their cities if they don’t have to
  • Some defenses set up in place to delay the enemy and allow them to get to the ships
  • Sacrificial rear guard in place (no named characters among the Falathrim besides Cirdan)
  • battle more of a stalemate rather than complete victory on either side (Sauron fails in achieving his goal to destroy them all)

Q: What is the Falathrim’s long-term plan?
  • stay safe
  • set up somewhere else if they can (the island in the Firth of Drengist)
  • run some reconnaissance on the orcs

Boldog’s Campaign
  • Boldog comes through the March of Maedhros
  • Shift Amon Ereb further north
  • No fortifying of anything on the part of the orcs
  • Boldog could use Hills of Himring as his base or closeby
  • One scene of the orcs in the hills building a wooden fortification and Boldog sending troops out to find as many elves as they can and kill them, destroy things, etc. etc.
 
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What is the 'everybody loves me' Myers Briggs type? I have never understood Myers Brigg, and have gotten a different result every time I took it. ESTP, ENTP, INTP (and two of those results were on the *same day*, only difference being a shorter and longer version of the test.)

Because, seriously, *everyone* loves Finrod. He is a friend of both Fingon and Maedhros. And the Sindar. And dwarves. And men. And ULMO. He even gets along with Andreth, who is super bitter about his brother jilting her.

Literally the only people who do not like this dude are Celegorm, Curufin, and Sauron. Well, and Mîm, but everyone always forgets about him anyway.

I think maybe the closest fit for him is ENFP...? I'd have to double check, but it definitely sounds that way, from what I remember.

Edit: Portrait of an ENFP: http://www.personalitypage.com/ENFP.html. Think that more or less fits?

As far as my personal understanding of MBTI, I seem to have been an INFJ before college and have become a consistent INFP since then. Seems about right, though I can identify with other traits in other types at times.
 
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Thank you *so* much! You are an amazing note-taker! Much appreciated. :)

Thank you! And my pleasure! I do run the risk of getting things mixed up from time to time, so part of it is also just me trying to keep the details together. :)
 
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Richol, thank you for note-taking. Question: what of that is preliminary brain-storming and what is final decisions? I can't tell which is which, nor anything in-between.

For example, I can't tell which of the 3 "solutions" for the Sleep of Yavanna was chosen. I dearly hope they have not decided retroactively that the Sun and Moon predate the Darkening of Valinor and that Mortals and Dwarves awoke at the same time as Elves. I can't even imagine why this was proposed as a possibility.

The Valar have been hanging out in Beleriand and were with the Elves at Kuivienen and all along the Great March route. Melian flat-out cancelled the Sleep in Beleriand. It's fairly easy to just say the Valar and Melian made things fruitful "enough" and they'll get even more fruitful later when the Sun does rise.

What is the 'everybody loves me' Myers Briggs type? I have never understood Myers Brigg, and have gotten a different result every time I took it. ESTP, ENTP, INTP (and two of those results were on the *same day*, only difference being a shorter and longer version of the test.)

Because, seriously, *everyone* loves Finrod. He is a friend of both Fingon and Maedhros. And the Sindar. And dwarves. And men. And ULMO. He even gets along with Andreth, who is super bitter about his brother jilting her.

Literally the only people who do not like this dude are Celegorm, Curufin, and Sauron. Well, and Mîm, but everyone always forgets about him anyway.
He also makes friends with the Teleri and Laiquendi, Turgon, Cirdan, Maglor, and Celebrimbor; and is at least tolerated by Thingol.

We don't actually know what Caranthir, Amros, and Amrod think of him. But few people seem to like Caranthir (besides his wife), and the twins are almost blank canvases.

Finrod is the best!
 
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For example, I can't tell which of the 3 "solutions" for the Sleep of Yavanna was chosen. I dearly hope they have not decided retroactively that the Sun and Moon predate the Darkening of Valinor and that Mortals and Dwarves awoke at the same time as Elves. I can't even imagine why this was proposed as a possibility.
They did not suggest that. It was mentioned that Tolkien was considering to redo things and change the introduction of the Sun and Moon.
 
Oh good. So then which things in the notes are suggestions, which are hypothetical non-suggestions, and which are final decisions? How do you tell the difference?
 
Not sure but I think that something is close to being a decision if it looks like this:
  • Marked like this
 
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