Session 3.17 - S3Ep12: Penultimate to the Season Finale

Haakon said:
1. Do we include the Battle of the Lammoth (but without Argon)?
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The idea that Fingolfin's Host marches down the coast to Lammoth might be something we could incorporate into the story. I'm not sure we'd want to send them that way, but it's not like they know where to go now that they're in Middle Earth, either. They want to find Morgoth (to kill him) and Fëanor (to make him pay), but they don't know where anyone is, nor do they have a map to follow.

So...what do they do? Send out some scouts to explore, while moving the Host south into more hospitable lands?

Certainly, they could encounter orcs, but this is the time of 'look, new moonlight!', so no doubt the orcs would be a bit timid. The moon still sets, of course, so it's only out for some of the time, but I can definitely see that being an issue for a standing army of orcs in the field. Not as big of an issue as sunlight, but still, it's *brand new*.

I am fine with including a skirmish of some sort with orcs, but that likely means that Morgoth then knows they are there. Maybe we just have them march off the Ice and start exploring Beleriand in the end of Episode 12, and then show some sort of skirmish/encounter in Episode 13 that leads them to march to Thangorodrim?
 
MithLuin said:
The idea that Fingolfin's Host marches down the coast to Lammoth might be something we could incorporate into the story. I'm not sure we'd want to send them that way, but it's not like they know where to go now that they're in Middle Earth, either. They want to find Morgoth (to kill him) and Fëanor (to make him pay), but they don't know where anyone is, nor do they have a map to follow.

So...what do they do? Send out some scouts to explore, while moving the Host south into more hospitable lands?

Certainly, they could encounter orcs, but this is the time of 'look, new moonlight!', so no doubt the orcs would be a bit timid. The moon still sets, of course, so it's only out for some of the time, but I can definitely see that being an issue for a standing army of orcs in the field. Not as big of an issue as sunlight, but still, it's *brand new*.

I am fine with including a skirmish of some sort with orcs, but that likely means that Morgoth then knows they are there. Maybe we just have them march off the Ice and start exploring Beleriand in the end of Episode 12, and then show some sort of skirmish/encounter in Episode 13 that leads them to march to Thangorodrim?
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Have those under Fingolfin put two and two together and realized that Orcs work for Morgoth?
 
MithLuin said:
Maybe we just have them march off the Ice and start exploring Beleriand in the end of Episode 12, and then show some sort of skirmish/encounter in Episode 13 that leads them to march to Thangorodrim?
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Yes, that could work!
 
I would prefer not to include any such battle. It strains credulity to the breaking point that starving, freezing, exhausted people who just barely survived the Helkaraxe and desperately need rest wouldn't just get slaughtered, Calaquendi or no. Nor would the Orcs respond to the Moon by doing anything other than hide, or flee back to Angband. The story really doesn't make sense to me.



EDIT: I've been thinking more about this.

My concern is that, if the Elves emerge from the Helkaraxe and they're not exhausted, too exhausted to fight, that it will trivialize the Helkaraxe.

As it is, we are going to have difficulty depicting just how awful the Grinding Ice is. We can show the Elves suffering and the bad terrain, but we're having to use animals as a comparison to convey that the conditions would kill Humans, and that's only going to vaguely get the idea across. Hundreds or thousands of Elves probably die on the Helkaraxe (plus the animals we added), but depicting that is by no means easy. I know how to show thousands of dead bodies on a battlefield, or write a scene in which falling ice kills a dozen Elves. But how do we convey that hundreds or thousands of Elves have died... in twos and threes, in hundreds of isolated incidents, of hypothermia, drowning, starvation, and falling ice? That's going to be very hard and probably we can't convey how terrible it's really supposed to be.

If we then add that, after what should be a harrowing, exhausting, frequently fatal journey, they come off the Ice... fresh, energetic, ready to fight a battle? A battle for which they're utterly unprepared against an enemy they didn't know existed, so they're not armored? Or if they are armored, it's because they're so full of energy they're marching hundreds of miles while wearing their armor (which is terribly exhausting all by itself)? And in this battle they aren't slaughtered, instead they win?

What message would that send to the audience? I think it would convey that the Helkaraxe was no big deal.



I think when they come off the Ice they should be exhausted. Not too weak to walk, but badly in need of rest and warm food, not at all able to fight a battle, not even ready to march to Thangorodrim right away. Instead of fighting a pitched battle, they should rest and take a head count to reckon up their losses (to convey that they lost a lot of people).

A plausible time for such a battle could be chosen, instead of Lammoth right after emerging from the Helkaraxe. After they have rested enough to start marching hundreds of miles north to Thangorodrim, they can probably handle a minor skirmish... perhaps with Orcs who are on their way back to Angband because of the Moon. That way we can delay it till Ep 13, where there's more time for extra scenes. The Orcs would still have to attack first, though, since the Elves don't know what they are.
 
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I don't think a skirmish would turn the Helcaraxë into something else than a big deal. They're obviously not lying down being unable to move. Also, the trials of the crossing will have hardened them. Their fighting will be affected, and they would use their energy economically, but they would be able to fight.
 
The issue is that Fingolfin doesn't know where Morgoth is. While I realize you can see Thangorodrim from quite some distance away, you can't really *know* that it was built recently or sits atop a fortress or anything like that.

So, how does the Host of Fingolfin know to march right up to the gate of Angband? How do they know Angband is even there? This sequence will make more sense if they've followed some fleeing orcs home. It will also somewhat mirror Fëanor's deadly reckless approach to Angband with a much stronger show of force - Fingolfin's host is not in any danger standing at Morgoth's gate in the sunlight at this time.

That is why I suggested some sort of skirmish in Episode 13 - it gives Fingolfin a reason to march to Thangorodrim. We will also need to give him a reason to go to Mithrim, so he'll probably have to have sent scouts out who have spotted the Fëanorean camp. But by saving all of this for Episode 13, Episode 12 can be about stepping off the ice onto green land, and recuperating their strength, catching their breaths. So it might not feel like *instant* battle if we save the skirmish for the next episode.

Perhaps we are saying the same thing. Lammoth is not anywhere near the place where the Helcaraxë dumps you off into Middle-earth. A trip along the coast of Beleriand to get there would take time -- time the Host of Fingolfin uses to recuperate from their ordeal.
 
Haakon said:
I don't think a skirmish would turn the Helcaraxë into something else than a big deal. They're obviously not lying down being unable to move. Also, the trials of the crossing will have hardened them. Their fighting will be affected, and they would use their energy economically, but they would be able to fight.
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Just take a bite of lembas and they’ll be good, right?
 
The other question is how the land will react to the moonlight. We don't have the sun yet, so it shouldn't be all the plants leaping into full bloom, but surely this will be the *start* of spring.

Regardless, we should have a stark contrast between the harsh icy environs of the Helcaraxë and the brutal far northern lands that do have grass and trees and growing things. Simply the sound of flowing water without ice in it would seem like a thaw to Fingolfin's Host.

I don't want to copy the coming of spring to Narnia, but the contrast should be nearly that blatant...just shot in moonlight.
 
MithLuin said:
The other question is how the land will react to the moonlight. We don't have the sun yet, so it shouldn't be all the plants leaping into full bloom, but surely this will be the *start* of spring.

Regardless, we should have a stark contrast between the harsh icy environs of the Helcaraxë and the brutal far northern lands that do have grass and trees and growing things. Simply the sound of flowing water without ice in it would seem like a thaw to Fingolfin's Host.

I don't want to copy the coming of spring to Narnia, but the contrast should be nearly that blatant...just shot in moonlight.
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Perhaps the tides rising? The moon affects the tides, I have no idea how the moon affects the ground.
 
You know, it hadn't even occurred to me that Middle Earth has been non-tidal up to this point. But yes, clearly the tides are a new phenomenon, which will no doubt confound Círdan's people at first.

Will we want to think of some mythological connection between Ossë and Tilion to make this happen, or does it just happen?
 
They don’t talk too much about the sea, except that the Teleri long for it, as do Tuor and Earendil. There’s not a battle on the sea during the First Age.

As far as a mythological connection, we can make one.
 
In our story, Ulmo is one of the Valar who are behind the initiative to send Tilion across the sky, right? So there could be something happening between them. But as you say, something involving Ossë would perhaps be better.
 
Haakon said:
In our story, Ulmo is one of the Valar who are behind the initiative to send Tilion across the sky, right? So there could be something happening between them. But as you say, something involving Ossë would perhaps be better.
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Well, maybe Tilion likes to fly down toward the Earth sometimes? His course is described as erratic. Or the tides produce waves and Ulmo and Osse decide to keep it for rule of cool?
 
But I thought that Fingolfin was still on the Helcaraxe when the moon rises and the Sun rises as he steps onto Middle-Earth. And this would weaken the Orcs.
 
We have to talk about the parley.

I agree that the Sons of Feanor will try to conceal their father's death from Morgoth's emissary. Is the messenger Sauron or someone else? When do we reveal to the audience that the mastermind behind this offer of parley is in fact Sauron?

Next, we need to consider the debate the Sons of Feanor would have about what to do. Yes, the offer of a silmaril is tempting, but of course they are suspicious. How do they get to the decision that just Maedhros will go, but with more soldiers than agreed upon? Do they assume it's a trap, and Maedhros forbids the others from going because it's too dangerous? Does he sneak off without them? Or do they think going is a bad idea, and he's the only one willing to parley? Is there a challenge over leadership here?

Personally, I want whatever is going to give us the most payoff later. I want Maglor promising on Maedhros' return that he'll never let his brother go into combat without him again. Etc. And while I am sure Curufin will exploit Maedhros' absence, I am less certain he would do anything to deliberately get rid of him here. We have to leave room for more depravity later.

What does everyone else think about this parley?
 
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I think Sauron should be deeply involved as soon as possible and could very well be the emissary himself, like an effective version of his own Mouth ages later.
 
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