Session 3.18 - S3Ep13 Season Finale!

Will we see men in that episode?
I mean...

In a way it would be cool if we won´t see men yet and the Rising sun is the last scene for this season, while a rising sun is the first scene of the next season too... in which we totally should see the awakening of men...

I mean the same Take of a rising sun as last scene for this and opener of the next season would be kinda cool.
Yes. We will.
 
Will we see men in that episode?
I mean...

In a way it would be cool if we won´t see men yet and the Rising sun is the last scene for this season, while a rising sun is the first scene of the next season too... in which we totally should see the awakening of men...

I mean the same Take of a rising sun as last scene for this and opener of the next season would be kinda cool.

The reason I would prefer to have Men in the final sequence of S03 rather than the opening one of S04 is mostly because doing it at the end of S03 is a teaser for events in the indeterminate future. Doing it at the beginning of S04 is a setup for events in S04.
 
I think you are taking this point further than it was meant. It is a reference to several textual elements: Melkor's reaction to Turgon in Valinor, Ulmo's intention to use Turgon as a rallying point to get the other Valar involved, and the descent of Earendil from Turgon.

No one is suggesting that Turgon is infallible, nor whitewashing his legacy.
I haven't listened to the latest podcast yet so I will take your word for it. Correct me if I am wrong, Turgon is not going to care about being a Kinslayer and he will be the FIRST Elvish king to order a capital punishment.

Maybe it's my bias showing, but in his most noblest characters Tolkien stresses their lack of pride: Finnarfin, Elendur and Aragorn. All of the Noldor princes have fallen.
 
I haven't listened to the latest podcast yet so I will take your word for it. Correct me if I am wrong, Turgon is not going to care about being a Kinslayer and he will be the FIRST Elvish king to order a capital punishment.

Maybe it's my bias showing, but in his most noblest characters Tolkien stresses their lack of pride: Finnarfin, Elendur and Aragorn. All of the Noldor princes have fallen.

I don't think we have any reason to assume that Turgon is out baying for Feanor's blood. That is pretty much the point that was made.
 
This isn't going to make sense. Turgon is going to make a number of really bad calls.
1. Keeps everyone except his messages locked away, but shows favouritism and allows Aredhal to leave.
2. Forces Maeglin to stay in Gondolin, but will later let Huor and Hurin leave.
3. Orders the brutal execution of Eol, which makes even Idril distance herself from the Noldor.
4. After all Hurin/Huor have done for him he refuses to let Hurin back in the city.

These are just big mistakes he makes off the top of my head.

I also think it will take away from the true near-Messianic figure Earendil.

The Noldor are no saints and it's very telling that the lore master Elrond prefers to trace his lineage through Thingol. I feel we are whitewashing the House of Fingolfin.
2. Maeglin wasn't forced to stay until after Tuor arrived. He wanted to come to Gondolin after being told of it by his mother. Besides, Maeglin has another incentive to stay in Gondolin: Idril. And considering that Maeglin got himself caught outside Gondolin and this led to the betrayal of Gondolin, Turgon might have had a point with not allowing people to leave. When people leave Gondolin, it led to the Fall of Gondolin. Let's recap:
  • Aredhel leaves Gondolin, gets captured and raped by Eol, with Maeglin as the result. When they return, Eol pursues them, kills Aredhel, while Maeglin lusts for Idril, which becomes an incentive to betray Gondolin
  • Hurin and Huor want to leave Gondolin and partake in their people's suffering. Years later, Hurin speaks the general location of Gondolin. Morgoth hears.
  • Maeglin sneaks out for work in the mountains and is captured. Morgoth offers him Gondolin and Idril as his reward for betraying Gondolin.
  • End result: the Fall of Gondolin.
4. I thought Turgon repented, but Hurin was gone by then. Anyways, he's not the only one to refuse entry to someone who was a former prisoner of Angband. It was a recurring pattern.
 
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I don't think we have any reason to assume that Turgon is out baying for Feanor's blood. That is pretty much the point that was made.
I will take your word for it, because I have yet to listen to the Podcast, but comparing Turgon to a messianic figure until his fateful decision to remain in Gondolin is something I disagree with. I may be wrong, but that's the direction I have gotten from other podcast and the outline actually said as much this time. When a final decision has been made, then I will always accept it and cease any arguments.

I don't have a problem with Turgon not wanting an execution, I am arguing against making Turgon an Earendil or Luthien.
2. Maeglin wasn't forced to stay until after Tuor arrived. He wanted to come to Gondolin after being told of it by his mother. Besides, Maeglin has another incentive to stay in Gondolin: Idril. And considering that Maeglin got himself caught outside Gondolin and this led to the betrayal of Gondolin, Turgon might have had a point with not allowing people to leave. When people leave Gondolin, it led to the Fall of Gondolin. Let's recap:
  • Aredhel leaves Gondolin, gets captured and raped by Eol, with Maeglin as the result. When they return, Eol pursues them, kills Aredhel, while Maeglin lusts for Idril, which becomes an incentive to betray Gondolin
  • Hurin and Huor want to leave Gondolin and partake in their people's suffering. Years later, Hurin speaks the general location of Gondolin. Morgoth hears.
  • Maeglin sneaks out for work in the mountains and is captured. Morgoth offers him Gondolin and Idril as his reward for betraying Gondolin.
  • End result: the Fall of Gondolin.
4. I thought Turgon repented, but Hurin was gone by then. Anyways, he's not the only one to refuse entry to someone who was a former prisoner of Angband. It was a recurring pattern.
Maeglin was forced to stay and Eol too. They had a choice, stay or die. My argument was that Turgon played favourites. He allowed those close to him to leave, despite the danger, but kept others there.

Maeglin has a very valid point when he says 'The King's grace is greater than you know, and the law is become less stem than aforetime; or else no choice would be given you but to abide here to your life's end.'

Small changes are going to lead to lots of big changes. Apart from Morgoth, Turgon is going to be the very first person to hand out the death penalty as punishment on screen. Now it can be portrayed in a way, that the audience is celebrating the death of Eol, but he is going to be thrown off a cliff.

It was appointed that Eöl should be brought on the next day to the King's judgement; and Aredhel and Idril moved Turgon to mercy.

Therefore when Eöl was brought before Turgon he found no mercy; and they led him forth to the Caragdûr, a precipice of black rock upon the north side of the hill of Gondolin, there to cast him down from the sheer walls of the city.

Then they cast Eöl over the Caragdûr, and so he ended, and to all in Gondolin it seemed just; but Idril was troubled, and from that day she mistrusted her kinsman.

Then the audience are going to see arguably the greatest last stand with one of the most memorable lines from Hurin. Hurin's men are going to be killed to the last and finally Hurin will be dragged away in chains. He will watch Morgoth completely destroy his family and not even once will he ever contemplate betraying Turgon. Then Turgon, even though he repented of it later, will abandon him. It's going to look very bad to the audience, unless a lot is changed.

I think I have rambled a bit. So in conclusion.
Do I have any arguments or objections to Turgon not wanting Feanor's execution? No, but I would prefer it.
Do I have arguments and objections to Turgon being a messianic figure? Yes.

However, it's a decision for the host to make.
 
I will take your word for it, because I have yet to listen to the Podcast, but comparing Turgon to a messianic figure until his fateful decision to remain in Gondolin is something I disagree with. I may be wrong, but that's the direction I have gotten from other podcast and the outline actually said as much this time. When a final decision has been made, then I will always accept it and cease any arguments.

I don't have a problem with Turgon not wanting an execution, I am arguing against making Turgon an Earendil or Luthien.

Maeglin was forced to stay and Eol too. They had a choice, stay or die. My argument was that Turgon played favourites. He allowed those close to him to leave, despite the danger, but kept others there.

Maeglin has a very valid point when he says 'The King's grace is greater than you know, and the law is become less stem than aforetime; or else no choice would be given you but to abide here to your life's end.'

Small changes are going to lead to lots of big changes. Apart from Morgoth, Turgon is going to be the very first person to hand out the death penalty as punishment on screen. Now it can be portrayed in a way, that the audience is celebrating the death of Eol, but he is going to be thrown off a cliff.

It was appointed that Eöl should be brought on the next day to the King's judgement; and Aredhel and Idril moved Turgon to mercy.

Therefore when Eöl was brought before Turgon he found no mercy; and they led him forth to the Caragdûr, a precipice of black rock upon the north side of the hill of Gondolin, there to cast him down from the sheer walls of the city.

Then they cast Eöl over the Caragdûr, and so he ended, and to all in Gondolin it seemed just; but Idril was troubled, and from that day she mistrusted her kinsman.

Then the audience are going to see arguably the greatest last stand with one of the most memorable lines from Hurin. Hurin's men are going to be killed to the last and finally Hurin will be dragged away in chains. He will watch Morgoth completely destroy his family and not even once will he ever contemplate betraying Turgon. Then Turgon, even though he repented of it later, will abandon him. It's going to look very bad to the audience, unless a lot is changed.

I think I have rambled a bit. So in conclusion.
Do I have any arguments or objections to Turgon not wanting Feanor's execution? No, but I would prefer it.
Do I have arguments and objections to Turgon being a messianic figure? Yes.

However, it's a decision for the host to make.

That's all fine, but I don't think it is necessary to get bound up in minutiae over an off-the-cuff remark.
 
I will take your word for it, because I have yet to listen to the Podcast, but comparing Turgon to a messianic figure until his fateful decision to remain in Gondolin is something I disagree with. I may be wrong, but that's the direction I have gotten from other podcast and the outline actually said as much this time. When a final decision has been made, then I will always accept it and cease any arguments.

I don't have a problem with Turgon not wanting an execution, I am arguing against making Turgon an Earendil or Luthien.

Maeglin was forced to stay and Eol too. They had a choice, stay or die. My argument was that Turgon played favourites. He allowed those close to him to leave, despite the danger, but kept others there.

Maeglin has a very valid point when he says 'The King's grace is greater than you know, and the law is become less stem than aforetime; or else no choice would be given you but to abide here to your life's end.'

Small changes are going to lead to lots of big changes. Apart from Morgoth, Turgon is going to be the very first person to hand out the death penalty as punishment on screen. Now it can be portrayed in a way, that the audience is celebrating the death of Eol, but he is going to be thrown off a cliff.

It was appointed that Eöl should be brought on the next day to the King's judgement; and Aredhel and Idril moved Turgon to mercy.

Therefore when Eöl was brought before Turgon he found no mercy; and they led him forth to the Caragdûr, a precipice of black rock upon the north side of the hill of Gondolin, there to cast him down from the sheer walls of the city.

Then they cast Eöl over the Caragdûr, and so he ended, and to all in Gondolin it seemed just; but Idril was troubled, and from that day she mistrusted her kinsman.

Then the audience are going to see arguably the greatest last stand with one of the most memorable lines from Hurin. Hurin's men are going to be killed to the last and finally Hurin will be dragged away in chains. He will watch Morgoth completely destroy his family and not even once will he ever contemplate betraying Turgon. Then Turgon, even though he repented of it later, will abandon him. It's going to look very bad to the audience, unless a lot is changed.

I think I have rambled a bit. So in conclusion.
Do I have any arguments or objections to Turgon not wanting Feanor's execution? No, but I would prefer it.
Do I have arguments and objections to Turgon being a messianic figure? Yes.

However, it's a decision for the host to make.
For some reason, I'd want Turgon to do it himself.
 
Please, let's not make this episode thread about a lot of events that lie in the future. Questions were raised, that’s all good, but points have been made and I think you will all agree with me that there will be many opportunities to discuss these issues and several story moments that we can all have influence on, and none of them are now, in this episode. If we want thoughts and ideas to be found later, few will remember that they are here, I believe.
This seems to be a really interesting subject so perhaps someone could start a separate thread about it?
 
Richol thank you much for the notes, especially since the video can’t be watched.

Or putting someone in danger in a season finale, only to have the season premiere open with their miraculous rescue.
But... that’s exactly what we’ll be doing.

I’m entirely with MithLuin, we should have something happen after the Sun rises instead of making that the last scene of the season. We do need to show the Hiding of Valinor, which comes after the Sun rises. The awakening of Men scene would be valuable, IMO. And I think that the Fëanorians and Fingolfin’s host should be aware of each other and have some tension, even some discussion about it. They can do that without meeting or speaking to each other, or forging Ringil. We could have Fingolfin march through Mithrim on the way to Angband, or return to Mithrim and end with the two hosts seeing at each other across a sunlit field (without meeting or talking), or have their scouts find each other.

MithLuin said it all better than I could, so I agree with everything she said except one thing: I don’t think Fingolfin should send any messenger.

We are putting off a lot of stuff that has to be crammed into Season 4 Episode 1.

Angrod the voice of the “Forget Angband, let’s go after Feanor!” mood among the followers
I’m all for Angrod and Galadriel being angry, but surely Turgon should be even angrier. He doesn’t need to be pro-kinslaying to be fiercely, uncompromisingly anti-Feanorian. Canonically, he hates them all and never forgives them. But I'm not married to having anyone explicitly advocate killing Feanor. An outspoken desire for revenge can be vague on details that the vengeful person hasn't thought about yet.



And... I'm not super enthusiastic for gratuitous torture scenes. Is that a final decision that we have to focus on that?
 
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I do not consider the stapling of Maedhros to the cliff to be a gratuitous torture scene.

Maedhros-in-captivity can have implied torments. He can show up much worse for wear in the scene where he talks to Morgoth. The audience will not have seen what happened to him in the dungeons of Angband, but I would imagine he would look like he's experienced a bit more pain then simply 'his clothes are dirty now.' We don't need to say what happened to him after his capture, but it's not like there's a Geneva convention in place, and we've seen how Boldog acts with the orcs and how Gothmog treated Eonwë back in Season 1. The audience will figure that out without much prompting from us.

We are going to have Sauron show tokens. While removing a lock of someone's hair is rather painless, there can be something else included in that package that is maybe less innocent. Something that was clearly removed from Maedhros' person. Whatever; again with the implication that being a prisoner in Angband is no fun without actually showing anything.

But...when Morgoth decides to hang him from the cliff, that's a final act meant to be a slow and painful death sentence. We at least need to hear from Morgoth as to why he's putting him up there (in a speech reminiscent of what he'll say to Húrin later). TV being a visual medium...it makes sense for Morgoth to say all that while it's happening.

We were already in agreement that we were going to see Maedhros hanging from the cliff. That's the torture part. The act of stapling him and dropping the body off the ledge is going to look painful and cause a visible wince in squeamish viewers, but is not actually any worse than the remainder of his 'static' torment.

I mean, I get it. The Passion of the Christ is rated R for violence, and Jesus loses enough fake blood in that movie to have died several times over - there is some serious hard-core on screen torture with an unflinching camera. And despite coming after the full scourging scene, the part where the nail is driven into his hand is still something where you expect the camera to cut away, and then it doesn't, and you flinch anyway. It's...squirmy...rather than visceral to watch something like that. I can certainly understand not wanting to see it. But I also don't think what we are planning is a particularly violent scene or any more than anticipatory torture. It's not like we're going to do anything that makes the scene I linked so...visceral. We aren't going to puncture any part of Maedhros' body. We're not going to dislocate his shoulder. We're going to drop him, and it's going to hurt, but...not torture hurt. A single scene of his body swinging down and hitting the rock wall as the audience figures out he's hanging from his wrist - yes, that's painful, but it's quick. I don't think we have to show a lot.


As for the end of the season...yes, I have some concerns. But I haven't heard the last hour of the session, either, so...I gotta wait to get caught up first.
 
Yeah I was thinking Fingon sets out on a mad mission in e1 and is successful in e2.
 
The main reason for delaying it would be to portray the rescue as formidable and heroic as possible. The quicker it is done, the easier it will seem, regardless of the hardships Fingon has to go through. We have to reach a point of hopelessness and that can’t be done within e1. Also, at the same time, the Noldorin internal conflict will have time to escalate before Fingon returns with Maedhros, disarming the situation.
 
If Nick thinks that can work with the timing/story arc he's planning for Season 4 (and if we can split the season) then I'm in favor.
 
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