Session 4.07 - Overarching Storylines, Continued

The biggest problem Morgoth is facing when the season begins is that sunlight defeats his troops. His trolls literally turn to stone in sunlight, and his orcs are terrified of it and won't go out in it without strong persuasion (and are then weak when they do). So, figuring out how to make clouds to blot out the sun to allow his troops to even take the field is a victory (of sorts). It's true Angband doesn't win the Dagor Aglareb...but they are able to field an army and fight it.

But it's possible that Morgoth is not home at the time of the Dagor Aglareb, and if that's the case, then certainly Gothmog is calling the shots. He's a loyal yes-man to Morgoth and won't do much on his own initiative, but he's definitely who Morgoth would have left in charge. So, this returns to the question of Hildorien, and what roles we want Morgoth and Sauron (or other characters) to play there.

Gothmog's ongoing role in this project is his feud with Sauron. Gothmog has physical strength and the kind of loyalty that Morgoth finds unquestioned. He's a 'natural' leader. Sauron...is not physically strong (compared to balrogs; obviously it's a different matter compared to elves!). He has his tricks and his magic and his clever plots that unfold gradually. He's careful with words. They are drastically different from one another, though they both serve Morgoth and they're both a bit hung up on power (Morgoth's followers followed him in the first place because of his power). It's clear that Sauron will be involved in capturing elves, questioning them, and then (allowing) some to escape. He'll be spying. He'll be ferreting out the truth of the Kinslaying. He might be involved in the Hildorien storyline (or he might not).

So...what is Gothmog doing during all of this? He can't make dragons himself; that's Morgoth's project. He can't be involved in Hildorien; the fall of Men is nothing to do with him. He can't fight in the Dagor Aglareb - that's specifically an orc-only battle. He can't train trolls to endure sunlight. So...what is he doing? 'Ruling Angband in Morgoth's absence' would be an interesting enough side plot, but we've seen him do that before (Season 2). How is it different this time around?



Regarding the Petty-dwarves....'hunting' is the wrong word. We're not picturing a group of Noldor going out to hunt wild boar and 'accidentally' bagging some petty-dwarves instead. This is a case of a small group of Petty-dwarves being mistaken for creatures of Morgoth and killed in an act of aggression - it could be started by either side, but the violence is a fight, not an issue of attacking helpless creatures and hunting them down.

We don't need to have this scene, but I don't think we *can't* have it, either. My only stipulation would be that if we do indeed give this scene to the Fëanoreans, it occurs before they meet the dwarves of the Blue Mountains. Even if they have heard that dwarves exist, that doesn't mean that they'd automatically assume *these* are Thingol's allies, and not Morgoth's. Something about the scenario should suggest that these new beings are in league with Morgoth, and then...the Fëanoreans would have little compunction in slaughtering them. Right? That was their reaction on meeting Morgoth's orcs, Morgoth's werewolves, Morgoth's balrogs, and Morgoth's trolls (not that those last two went very well....)

Anyway, as far as I am concerned, the real issue here is that, if such an incident occurs, how does that impact the relationship between the Dwarves and the Fëanoreans? We know they're going to get along fairly well...but...what is the consequence for having slaughtered some of their (exiled) kin?
How it’s different this time around? Maybe Morgoth leaves some instructions behind for Gothmog to follow since this absence from Angband is of his own volition?

I’ve thought that after Morgoth scares Men, Sauron finishes corrupting Men, as a foreshadowing to the corruption of Numenor. He then leaves Fankil in charge while he returns to Angband to pursue the Elven capture program. However, Fankil messes up somehow and three tribes break off westward towards Beleriand.
 
I like the conclusions we came to on the "What ever happened in Hildorien?" thread and I thought we all came to agree on what happened there.

Gothmog is the guy in charge of Boldog and training the Orcs, right? After the Second Battle and again after the Third Battle, new Orcs need to be bred and trained and conditioned.

Regarding the Petty-dwarves....'hunting' is the wrong word. We're not picturing a group of Noldor going out to hunt wild boar and 'accidentally' bagging some petty-dwarves instead. This is a case of a small group of Petty-dwarves being mistaken for creatures of Morgoth and killed in an act of aggression - it could be started by either side, but the violence is a fight, not an issue of attacking helpless creatures and hunting them down.

We don't need to have this scene, but I don't think we *can't* have it, either. My only stipulation would be that if we do indeed give this scene to the Fëanoreans, it occurs before they meet the dwarves of the Blue Mountains. Even if they have heard that dwarves exist, that doesn't mean that they'd automatically assume *these* are Thingol's allies, and not Morgoth's. Something about the scenario should suggest that these new beings are in league with Morgoth, and then...the Fëanoreans would have little compunction in slaughtering them. Right? That was their reaction on meeting Morgoth's orcs, Morgoth's werewolves, Morgoth's balrogs, and Morgoth's trolls (not that those last two went very well....)
When Finrod gets enormous amounts of help from the Dwarves and they become his firm allies, that is not ambigous and the other Noldor are not going to be oblivious to the fact that it happened. Finrod is going to tell people, including his cousins, quite possibly in person. At the very least the princes of the Noldor keep in touch via messengers and writing. It will not be some secret that the Dwarves have formally allied with the Noldor. And even if the Feanorians met some new unidentified life-form, why on Earth would they assume every unidentified creature is automatically a servant of Morgoth? Do they assume Ents and Eagles are servants of Morgoth and kill them, too? Do they make a point of destroying all unfamiliar wildlife? They're capable of basic reasoning, and they aren't scared of much short of a Balrog. It doesn't make sense for them to kill something just because they don't recognize it, let alone solely because it only has a formal alliance with other Noldor and not with them personally. If they were that paranoid and trigger-happy, they'd also attack the Blue Mountains Dwarves on sight.

We know they're going to get along fairly well...but...what is the consequence for having slaughtered some of their (exiled) kin?
Tolkien wrote that the other Dwarves were pissed off the Petty-Dwarves were slaughtered. It will make peaceful relations with the other Dwarves extremely difficult or almost impossible for several decades or centuries at first. It will be even worse if they're genocided. This is another reason why this whole idea is implausible.
 
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I like the conclusions we came to on the "What ever happened in Hildorien?" thread and I thought we all came to agree on what happened there.

Gothmog is the guy in charge of Boldog and training the Orcs, is he not? after the Second Battle and again after the Third Battle, new Orcs need to be bred and trained and conditioned.

When Finrod gets enormous amounts of help from the Dwarves and they become his firm allies, that is not ambigous and the other Noldor are not going to be oblivious to the fact that it happened. Finrod is going to tell people, including his cousins, quite possibly in person. At the very least the princes of the Noldor keep in touch via messengers and writing. It will not be some secret that the Dwarves have formally allied with the Noldor. And even if the Feanorians met some new unidentified life-form, why on Earth would they assume every unidentified creature is automatically a servant of Morgoth? Do they assume Ents and Eagles are servants of Morgoth and kill them, too? Do they make a point of destroying all unfamiliar wildlife? They aren't paranoid, trigger-happy vigilantes with tinfoil hats. They're capable of basic reasoning, and they aren't scared of much short of a Balrog. It doesn't make sense for them to kill something just because they don't recognize it, let alone solely because they don't have a personal, formal alliance with it yet.

Tolkien wrote that the other Dwarves were pissed off the Petty-Dwarves were slaughtered. It will make peaceful relations with the other Dwarves extremely difficult or almost impossible for several decades or centuries at first. It will be even worse if they're genocided. This is another reason why this whole idea is implausible.
Maybe Ulmo tells them that Ents and Eagles are not servants of Morgoth?
 
And Aule told them that the Dwarves are not servants of Morgoth, too! Tolkien said that, explicitly.* And Finrod is going to prove it very early in the season, and make a formal alliance with them.

If Feanorians assume that all Dwarves are Orcs and shoot them on sight, why don't they shoot the Blue Mountains Dwarves on sight too? If they don't care who has made a formal alliance with Finrod, why don't they shoot the Edain on sight? How would such paranoid, trigger-happy, tinfoil-hat nutcases make alliances or trade agreements with anyone, ever?

It's drastically out of character. I don't see any way the concept can be used without turning the Feanorians into lunatics, and creating plot holes.


*Edit: Re-reading The War of the Jewels, I can see that it's unclear when exactly Aule told them that, if it was in the First Age or later. It's pretty muddled and it's reasonable to ignore it.
 
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Timing matters.

The Fëanoreans move into the lands of East Beleriand c. FA 7. Presumably, any incident involving the Petty-dwarves would happen early on, while they are exploring their new lands.

Finrod does not have his dream from Ulmo or meet the Dwarves until after the Mereth Aderthad (FA 20), and, depending on chronology of our Season, potentially *much* later (after the Kinslaying is revealed was an initial suggestion).

Considering these Petty-dwarves may very well have been exiled in the first place for trading with Angband, it's not a huge leap to conclude that they are in league with Angband. They're not necessarily going to stop that trade after being kicked out of their homes....
 
And Aule told them that the Dwarves are not servants of Morgoth, too! Tolkien said that, explicitly. And Finrod is going to prove it very early in the season, and make a formal alliance with them.

Again, if Feanorians assume that all Dwarves are Orcs and shoot them on sight, why don't they shoot the Blue Mountains Dwarves on sight too? If they don't care who has made a formal alliance with Finrod, why don't they shoot the Edain on sight? How would such paranoid, trigger-happy, tinfoil-hat nutcases make alliances or trade agreements with anyone, ever?

It's drastically out of character. I don't see any way the concept can be used without turning the Feanorians into lunatics, and creating plot holes.

Well, the Feanorians are lunatics towards the end.

The purpose of putting the Noldor in the wrong here is mainly for the Children of Hurin storyline, with the embittered remnant of the Petty-Dwarves expressing his resentment for the Elves.
 
@MithLuin , I'm not seeing how this would work. Could you please suggest/outline a scenario showing when and where this happens, and why the Feanorians decide to attack the Petty-Dwarves? How many Dwarves are you thinking they kill?

Why do the Feanorians, having decided that Dwarves are a kind of Orc or in league with them, choose not to attack the Blue Mountains Dwarves? A party of Orcs being slightly larger and dressed differently from the previous group isn't a reason not to attack them on sight.

And why, or how, are the Blue Mountains Dwarves are persuaded to trade with the Feanorians in spite of this Dwarf-slaughtering? In the story where the Sindar had killed some Petty-Dwarves, the circumstances were different, the Elves had mistaken the Petty-Dwarves for animals instead of people, and the Elves still had to persuade the bigger Dwarves to forgive them.


@Ange1e4e5 , the Feanorians never become the kind of paranoid lunatics who shoot strangers just because they might be enemies. They attack Doriath for an actual reason, not for fun or because they think Grey Elves are servants of Morgoth. They attack the Havens because the Oath tortures them for 11 years for trying to break it. They attack Alqualonde because they're desperate to escape with ships, they think they're being attacked, and Feanor goads them on. In all three Kinslayings they have a bad but powerful reason, and something awesome to gain if they win. At no point do they attack people at random just because they're strangers. That would be drastically out of character. It'd be a characature, an exaggeration. On the contrary, the canon Feanorians make alliance with strangers of other species (Dwarves and Edain) without killing them.

Just because the Feanorians are kinslayers and become villains, doesn't mean they're randomly violent. It's understandable for other people to fear random violence from them, especially after the Second Kinslaying. But Tolkien's world isn't divided into Orcs and perfect good-guys, it's full of shades of grey. The Feanorians aren't one-dimensional villains.

The Noldor being in the wrong for the Children of Hurin storyline is only relevant for Finrod buying land stolen from the Petty-Dwarves. Mim never complained that the Noldor slaughtered his people, he complained that his peoples' land was stolen and they were made into refugees. And Mim is also partly in the wrong. And in this case they can't even be the same group as Mim since they're living in a different part of Beleriand, and the Hosts decided that the various exiles don't start joining together into a Clan until around the first Sunrise.
 
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And Aule told them that the Dwarves are not servants of Morgoth, too! Tolkien said that, explicitly.* And Finrod is going to prove it very early in the season, and make a formal alliance with them.

If Feanorians assume that all Dwarves are Orcs and shoot them on sight, why don't they shoot the Blue Mountains Dwarves on sight too? If they don't care who has made a formal alliance with Finrod, why don't they shoot the Edain on sight? How would such paranoid, trigger-happy, tinfoil-hat nutcases make alliances or trade agreements with anyone, ever?

It's drastically out of character. I don't see any way the concept can be used without turning the Feanorians into lunatics, and creating plot holes.


*Edit: Re-reading The War of the Jewels, I can see that it's unclear when exactly Aule told them that, if it was in the First Age or later. It's pretty muddled and it's reasonable to ignore it.
Maybe it wasn’t Aule, since Aule doesn’t interact with the Noldor. Ulmo is the main Vala (minus Morgoth) the Noldor communicate with.
 
Okay... no,
Aule may have briefly or explicitly that he has children in middle-Earth... but why should the Noldor immediately recognize the darves as these?

Yet i still think it is a chronology problem we created by ourselves. In thevbook the Sindar at first meet the petty dwarves and kill them or drive them away, mistaking them for orcs... though the Petty dwarves might too have been hostile -they're not a friendly people after all. It is only after that incident that they meet and make friends with the blue mt dwarves, and not quite easily, as the blue mt dwarves still care for their exiled remote kinsmen and do not likevthem being killed.

But in our chronology that would nt work anymore..
 
So how do we sort this out regarding the Noldor and the early interactions with the Dwarves?
 
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We have two options.

We can transfer the incident where the Sindar hunt the Petty-dwarves before meeting the Dwarves to the Noldor, specifically the Fëanoreans, who would follow the same chronology of meeting the Petty-dwarves first (and violently) before meeting the Blue Mountain dwarves and resolving things. Another group of Noldor could be used for this plot if desired, I suppose.

OR we could decide to leave this incident out of our adaptation.

The Hosts have stated that they're not necessarily sold on the idea of including this, but they don't see any reason why it can't be done. So, for now, it's optional. They ran out of time to discuss it in Friday's session, and said they'd revisit it next time.
 
We have two options.

We can transfer the incident where the Sindar hunt the Petty-dwarves before meeting the Dwarves to the Noldor, specifically the Fëanoreans, who would follow the same chronology of meeting the Petty-dwarves first (and violently) before meeting the Blue Mountain dwarves and resolving things. Another group of Noldor could be used for this plot if desired, I suppose.

OR we could decide to leave this incident out of our adaptation.

The Hosts have stated that they're not necessarily sold on the idea of including this, but they don't see any reason why it can't be done. So, for now, it's optional. They ran out of time to discuss it in Friday's session, and said they'd revisit it next time.
Do we need it?
 
In what way would our story become better with it? We missed the point where it could have worked - back when nobody knew about the Dwarves. Now, even if some Noldor haven’t seen or even heard about them, such a crime - even if committed by mistake - would smear the Noldor too badly too soon. Let’s leave it out, please.
 
To expand now that I'm at a keyboard instead of a phone.

I would like this scene if it was the first time the *audience* was meeting Dwarves (I suppose the second time if we count Aule's workshop but that's a different thing), and some Sindar mistook them for Orcs and shot them up. This would be tragic but understandable. BUT even in this scene we'd have to talk fast, as even though they aren't Calaquendi, the Sindar are still Eldar and have senses beyond what we mortals can ken, and could probably be able to tell the difference between creatures of the Enemy and random passers-by on some instinctual level.

I do not like this scene once we've met and interacted with actual Dwarves and they are, to the audience, clearly not Orcs. Once they aren't Orcs to the audience, it isn't easy to imagine the Noldor thinking they were Orcs, even if they are in more or less the same situation as the previous Sindar would have been.
 
No, we don't need it.

The main reason to include it would be because this incident is one of the few things Tolkien actually wrote about the Petty-dwarves in the Quenta. So...leaving it out feels like we are leaving out one of the few scenes he gave us. Of course, we'd have to change it nearly beyond recognition, so I'm not sure that it's worth retaining for that reason alone.
In our version:
  • It would be the Noldor, not the Sindar, who are guilty.
  • The Noldor would 'fight' the Petty-dwarves, not 'hunt' them.
  • They would mistake the Petty-dwarves for servants of Morgoth, not beasts. (And I'm not sure how mistaken they even are....)
So, overall, it is a rather different scene when re-envisioned this way. All that is retained is that it's a 'first encounter' gone badly, and that it would impact the elf-dwarf relations moving forward.

If we remove it, then the Petty-dwarves are only part of the building-of-Nargothrond story (which Finrod, and thus the Noldor, are completely unaware of!), and part of any internal-dwarf stories that we want to tell. It was suggested that we show a dwarf being banished when we showed Belegost, to let that be an opportunity to showcase Azaghal's leadership and sense of justice. Since the Dwarf-Petty-dwarf feud will be correlated to the Sindar-Noldor feud over the kinslaying, that may be all we need from them this season.
 
To expand now that I'm at a keyboard instead of a phone.

I would like this scene if it was the first time the *audience* was meeting Dwarves (I suppose the second time if we count Aule's workshop but that's a different thing), and some Sindar mistook them for Orcs and shot them up. This would be tragic but understandable. BUT even in this scene we'd have to talk fast, as even though they aren't Calaquendi, the Sindar are still Eldar and have senses beyond what we mortals can ken, and could probably be able to tell the difference between creatures of the Enemy and random passers-by on some instinctual level.

I do not like this scene once we've met and interacted with actual Dwarves and they are, to the audience, clearly not Orcs. Once they aren't Orcs to the audience, it isn't easy to imagine the Noldor thinking they were Orcs, even if they are in more or less the same situation as the previous Sindar would have been.
Plus, the Sindar are the main ones the Dwarves have issues with in later years. Thingol was killed by Dwarves, who later sacked Doriath, and Thranduil imprisoned Thorin’s company. The Noldor in Eregion seem to get on fine with the Dwarves in the Second Age.
 
So, reasons to exclude this scene:
  • The audience is already familiar with Dwarves, and thus won't buy any ignorance on the part of the Noldor, even if the Noldor have never met Dwarves before.
  • By having a violent and deadly encounter with the Petty-Dwarves, the Noldor have now seriously complicated their relationship with the Blue Mountain Dwarves moving forward. Do we have a plan to resolve that conflict this Season?
  • What story are we even trying to tell with the Petty-dwarves in East Beleriand, anyway? Do we really need/want them to be there?
Main reason to include this scene:
  • The incident where the Sindar mistakenly hunt the Petty-dwarves as beasts is recorded in the published Silmarillion, and we chose not to include that in Season 3.
  • Potential introduction of Fëanorean/Dwarf conflict, which will be resolved with Caranthir-the-unlikeliest-of-diplomats striking a trade deal. Somehow.
 
So, reasons to exclude this scene:
  • The audience is already familiar with Dwarves, and thus won't buy any ignorance on the part of the Noldor, even if the Noldor have never met Dwarves before.
  • By having a violent and deadly encounter with the Petty-Dwarves, the Noldor have now seriously complicated their relationship with the Blue Mountain Dwarves moving forward. Do we have a plan to resolve that conflict this Season?
  • What story are we even trying to tell with the Petty-dwarves in East Beleriand, anyway? Do we really need/want them to be there?
Main reason to include this scene:
  • The incident where the Sindar mistakenly hunt the Petty-dwarves as beasts is recorded in the published Silmarillion, and we chose not to include that in Season 3.
  • Potential introduction of Fëanorean/Dwarf conflict, which will be resolved with Caranthir-the-unlikeliest-of-diplomats striking a trade deal. Somehow.
I might also add for reasons to exclude them is that it makes the Noldor look even worse after the Kinslaying, which we don’t need.
 
The biggest problem Morgoth is facing when the season begins is that sunlight defeats his troops. His trolls literally turn to stone in sunlight, and his orcs are terrified of it and won't go out in it without strong persuasion (and are then weak when they do). So, figuring out how to make clouds to blot out the sun to allow his troops to even take the field is a victory (of sorts). It's true Angband doesn't win the Dagor Aglareb...but they are able to field an army and fight it.

But it's possible that Morgoth is not home at the time of the Dagor Aglareb, and if that's the case, then certainly Gothmog is calling the shots. He's a loyal yes-man to Morgoth and won't do much on his own initiative, but he's definitely who Morgoth would have left in charge. So, this returns to the question of Hildorien, and what roles we want Morgoth and Sauron (or other characters) to play there.

Gothmog's ongoing role in this project is his feud with Sauron. Gothmog has physical strength and the kind of loyalty that Morgoth finds unquestioned. He's a 'natural' leader. Sauron...is not physically strong (compared to balrogs; obviously it's a different matter compared to elves!). He has his tricks and his magic and his clever plots that unfold gradually. He's careful with words. They are drastically different from one another, though they both serve Morgoth and they're both a bit hung up on power (Morgoth's followers followed him in the first place because of his power). It's clear that Sauron will be involved in capturing elves, questioning them, and then (allowing) some to escape. He'll be spying. He'll be ferreting out the truth of the Kinslaying. He might be involved in the Hildorien storyline (or he might not).

So...what is Gothmog doing during all of this? He can't make dragons himself; that's Morgoth's project. He can't be involved in Hildorien; the fall of Men is nothing to do with him. He can't fight in the Dagor Aglareb - that's specifically an orc-only battle. He can't train trolls to endure sunlight. So...what is he doing? 'Ruling Angband in Morgoth's absence' would be an interesting enough side plot, but we've seen him do that before (Season 2). How is it different this time around?



Regarding the Petty-dwarves....'hunting' is the wrong word. We're not picturing a group of Noldor going out to hunt wild boar and 'accidentally' bagging some petty-dwarves instead. This is a case of a small group of Petty-dwarves being mistaken for creatures of Morgoth and killed in an act of aggression - it could be started by either side, but the violence is a fight, not an issue of attacking helpless creatures and hunting them down.

We don't need to have this scene, but I don't think we *can't* have it, either. My only stipulation would be that if we do indeed give this scene to the Fëanoreans, it occurs before they meet the dwarves of the Blue Mountains. Even if they have heard that dwarves exist, that doesn't mean that they'd automatically assume *these* are Thingol's allies, and not Morgoth's. Something about the scenario should suggest that these new beings are in league with Morgoth, and then...the Fëanoreans would have little compunction in slaughtering them. Right? That was their reaction on meeting Morgoth's orcs, Morgoth's werewolves, Morgoth's balrogs, and Morgoth's trolls (not that those last two went very well....)

Anyway, as far as I am concerned, the real issue here is that, if such an incident occurs, how does that impact the relationship between the Dwarves and the Fëanoreans? We know they're going to get along fairly well...but...what is the consequence for having slaughtered some of their (exiled) kin?
How about Boldog leads the Orcs in the Dagor Aglareb and Gothmog is there in a nominal role to make sure the Orcs fear them enough to attack, lest they be tortured by Gothmog or something along those lines?
 
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