On the passing on of Narsil

So @Faelivrin and I were discussing some of the items created by the Dwarves for the Noldor in Season 4 on the 4.06 Session thread https://forums.signumuniversity.org...-overarching-storylines-continued.3083/page-6 and we agreed that Narsil (later Anduril) should be made this season, as Telchar’s last work is the Dragon-Helm of Dor-Lomin. I’ve favored Curufin receiving it alongside Angrist, the knife used to cut a Silmaril from Morgoth’s crown, while @Faelivrin prefers one of Finarfin’s sons, Angrod or Aegnor. Which should it be?
 
There have been many suggestions for Narsil's First Age wielder in this thread.

My top three are currently:
1) Emeldir
2) Mablung
3) Círdan

Aegnor-the-balrog-slayer is an option, though I agree that retrieving the sword afterwards might be a task!

Wait a minute...there's no reason Emeldir couldn't be on hand to rescue the lost sword. She's in Dorthonion after the battle, and she's leading her people to safety. So, Narsil could go from Aegnor --> Emeldir that way, if we wanted it to.....
 
There have been many suggestions for Narsil's First Age wielder in this thread.

My top three are currently:
1) Emeldir
2) Mablung
3) Círdan

Aegnor-the-balrog-slayer is an option, though I agree that retrieving the sword afterwards might be a task!

Wait a minute...there's no reason Emeldir couldn't be on hand to rescue the lost sword. She's in Dorthonion after the battle, and she's leading her people to safety. So, Narsil could go from Aegnor --> Emeldir that way, if we wanted it to.....
And where from Emeldir? Emeldir goes to Dor-Lomin, which is eventually invaded by the Easterlings, who would most likely take the sword. Who would it go to after Emeldir to ensure its survival?
 
I really like the little story I put together over a couple different threads. Something like this, but with a lot of room for variation:

Caranthir befriends the Dwarves. He is initially unimpressed with their work, but quickly realizes that they have the capability to produce in quantities the Noldor can't even imagine (they have never felt the need for mass production before, so each Noldor work is a piece of art). He later learns that there are artisans among the Dwarves who can rival the Noldor with their craft as well. He provides the Dwarves with some technical knowledge that is difficult for them to utilize, as it requires some sort of material or process that is apparently only available in Valinor (maybe a hotter fire than the Dwarves can manage?).

Later on, Aegnor is visiting Caranthir while Curufin is there. They go out to <appropriate Dwarf town, Nogrod or Belegost, I forget which>. While they are being celebrated at a feast, Aegnor overhears Telchar and another artisan quietly talking about attempting a new approach to solving the techincal challenge of Caranthir's knowledge. Aegnor is able to solve their problem with his own knowledge of metallurgy (a way to use the process without as much heat?). Caranthir, afraid of seeming like a chump, boastfully asks the Dwarves to reward his clever cousin with a gift. Telchar gladly gives him Narsil (and Noldor jaws drop). For some side-reason I haven't thought of yet but could easily be crafted, Angrist is also given at this time.

From Aegnor, we can then get to Emeldir, and then on to others.
 
A terrible premature proposed 'complete history of Narsil' ;)

  • Telchar of Nogrod moves to Belegost after her role as armorer of Doriath emerges, since Belegost (not Nogrod) has that alliance.
  • While in Belegost after the rising of the Sun, Telchar makes Narsil, a beautiful sword that reflects the light of the Sun and the Moon. The sword says right on it, "I am Narsil, forged by Telchar, long may I fight the powers of darkness" or something to that effect.
  • While visiting the Dwarves/Fëanoreans, Aegnor is gifted Narsil by Telchar herself (see Mike's explanation above).
  • Aegnor uses Narsil in his fatal fight with a balrog during the Battle of Sudden Flame. It is (temporarily) lost at the site where the balrog fell to its doom.
  • While fleeing Dorthonion in the aftermath of the Dagor Bragollach, Emeldir (mother of Beren) recovers the sword and takes it with her to Brethil, using it to protect her people on their hazardous journey.
  • When Gondolin is sacked, the remainder of Bëor's folk who are in the Forest of Brethil retreat with the Gondolin refugees to the Mouths of Sirion. Narsil goes with them.
  • The Wars of Beleriand turn all of the Elves and Edain into orphan refugees stranded on the Isle of Balar. Narsil is there, in the keeping of the Edain.
  • One of these nameless Edain takes the sword to Numenor at the dawn of the Second Age, where it eventually finds its way to the Lords of Adunië via marriage. It is praised as an ancient sword, but no one recalls who used to wield it.
  • Elendil and his sons flee Numenor during its destruction; Narsil comes with them on the ships.
  • When Elendil and Gil-galad fight Sauron, Narsil is broken. Isildur uses it to cut the Ring from Sauron's finger.
  • The broken sword Narsil becomes an heirloom of the Dunedain of the North. It is passed down until it reaches Aragorn Son of Arathorn. He carries the broken sword with him when he meets the hobbits in Bree, though he likely had other swords he used in his earlier adventures.
  • After the Council of Elrond, Narsil is reforged into Andúril and Aragorn takes it to the War of the Ring. Presumably, he kills a lot of orcs with it.
I like the idea of the sword passing to 'nobodies' for awhile. It fits how history actually works (not every wielder is going to be someone who uses it for something really famous, and there will be times where it's just displayed on a mantle). I am by no means overly attached to this exact progression, but I can see it as a plausible option, at least.
 
What I like about this timeline is that after its first owner, the sword quickly passes into the hands of Men. I think that's important - it's not an Elven weapon that is given to Numenor as a gift, it is a Man... Mannish? Manly? weapon almost from the start, and is used by Men in the First Age.

ETA: I forget, when does Caranthir get killed? Can it be by Narsil in the hands of a Man?

Edit to my edit: Boo second Kinslaying not third. Tricky to get a Man with Narsil to the second...


Is the "I am Narsil" inscription canonical, or do we get to write one as we please? In Dwarven language or Quenya? If I have my details correct, Narsil would have Dwarven writing on it, and then Anduril would have the same words in Quenya added to it.

"I am Narsil [or, rather, whatever is Dwarven for "red and white flame" or "brand" maybe even], forged by Telchar, long may I be a light to confront the darkness."
 
What I like about this timeline is that after its first owner, the sword quickly passes into the hands of Men. I think that's important - it's not an Elven weapon that is given to Numenor as a gift, it is a Man... Mannish? Manly? weapon almost from the start, and is used by Men in the First Age.

ETA: I forget, when does Caranthir get killed? Can it be by Narsil in the hands of a Man?


Is the "I am Narsil" inscription canonical, or do we get to write one as we please? In Dwarven language or Quenya? If I have my details correct, Narsil would have Dwarven writing on it, and then Anduril would have the same words in Quenya added to it.

"I am Narsil [or, rather, whatever is Dwarven for "red and white flame" or "brand" maybe even], forged by Telchar, long may I be a light to confront the darkness."
Caranthir is KIA in the Second Kinslaying, where Beren and Luthien’s son Dior, King of Doriath, is killed.
 
If we wanted Narsil to be used against a Fëanorean in a kinslaying, we could have it kill Amras in the Third, as it would be at the Havens of Sirion.

No, that inscription is not canonical; I made it up. But the question has come up, how come people know the name of this sword and who forged it, but not who wielded it or what famous deeds were done with it? And I figured...simplest answer is that the name is written right on it, so even when its history is forgotten, that is still known.
 
Mike = amysrevenge?

I like MithLuin's suggestions. Getting it from Aegnor to Emeldir is clever. My only substantial disagreement is that I'm not certain Aegnor wants to visit the Feanorians. If he visits the Dwarves on his own or with Finrod that would make more sense to me.

My preference is that it never be wielded by a Feanorians, I feel that just taints the sword.
 
Mike = me yes (if you have signatures set to hidden, or if you've trained your eyes to scroll past signatures, you won't see that haha)

You could still get almost everything I have in my story with Aegnor visiting the Dwarves on his own without Caranthir, with the exception of it being Caranthir's boastfulness making it look kinda like he might have gotten this awesome sword himself if he wasn't such an ass.

But I think in these early days of the Exile, the various princes of the Noldor are not on the worst of terms with each other - especially if they are one on one, or in small groups, where the overall group politics can be hidden behind personality and what they have in common. I think of it kind of like the grandchildren of Queen Victoria - even though some of them eventually end up on opposite sides of World War 1, in their youth they all got along fairly well and all doted on their beloved grandmother.

At a gathering where all the princes are together, they will divide into their camps and be at odds. But almost any two or three of them, from any family, could hang out together on their own and talk about smaller topics.
 
I dunno... Aegnor and Angrod and the others all try to forgive the Feanorians, sure, even (at first) Caranthir despite his stupid obnoxiousness at the big council. Openly being a jerk to their faces is presumably beneath the children of Finarfin.

But travelling 300 miles particularly to visit somebody seems unlikely to happen except between friends. Aredhel with Celegorm and Curufin, or Fingon or Finrod (or brothers) with Maedhros or Maglor, sure. But I don't see Aegnor and Caranthir as being especial buddies (Aegnor was buddies with the Feanorians in pre-LotR versions of the Silmarillion, but it got changed eventually).
 
True. But maybe Aegnor is very curious about Dwarves. Curious enough to go visit them. And since Caranthir is right there, and rumour is that he has the pre-existing relationship with them already....
 
I agree that Angrod and Caranthir are particularly at odds, and that Turgon makes no pretense of forgiving the Fëanoreans for the Helcaraxë. We are going to make a point of Angrod's ongoing antagonism (or what is viewed as antagonism) from his role as ambassador to Thingol. He is (eventually) going to spill the beans on the Kinslaying, which looks bad for the High King, sure, but mostly implicates the Fëanoreans.

So, we have Caranthir's unkind words at the council, and then we have most of the Sons of Fëanor not showing up to the Feast of Reuniting (just Maedhros and Maglor go). If we want any more opportunities to show this tension, we're going to have to come up with excuses to put them together again.

Prior to the construction of Nargothrond, the Blue Mountain dwarves don't have a lot of reason to visit West Beleriand. They *do* have reasons to visit Caranthir's halls (or what have you) in Thargelion. So, there could be a time when some of the Sons of Finarfin make the trek to East Beleriand to meet with the dwarves, and are perforce guests of Caranthir during that time. Caranthir, no doubt, would take the opportunity to be a condescending jerk about the whole thing. Aegnor and Angrod are said to be particularly close to Fingon, and Fingon would have every reason to want to visit Himring at some point, so it's possible that Aegnor and Angrod have tagged along with Fingon on a visit to Maedhros, and the dwarves and Caranthir are also visiting Himring at that time.

So we might want to do something with that, as part of illustrating Caranthir's role in Dwarf/Noldor trade. Alternatively, we could have the meeting between Aegnor and the Dwarves occur in Doriath or in Nargothrond - both places that Aegnor would have every reason to visit, and Telchar has already visited Doriath in Season 3. (Caranthir, of course, would *not* be welcome in Doriath!)

Personally, I don't think that a Fëanorean wielding Narsil would 'taint' it, but I certainly understand the desire to keep that sword in particular out of any kinslaying incidents. Rather significantly, the Fëanorean blades are not named in the histories (well, obviously Angrist was Curufin's, but Curufin didn't *make* it, nor is he famous for using it - it only becomes famous once Beren gets hold of it). Considering Fëanor was so famous for everything he made, and we know he outfitted his sons in swords and armor in Valinor before the rebellion of the Noldor, it does seem like there is a hesitance to praise their swords too much.
 
Wow, there are some opportunities here to do more than one thing with the encounter - that's good! I think that the more princes there are, the more contentious the gathering will be, almost in a linear way (four princes together are twice as fractious as two would be), but we can use that if we want to. If it would help the story to have this encounter be less cordial than I had initially imagined, adding a cousin or two would almost necessitate that.
 
Or this...

Fingon is travelling East to visit Maedhros at Himring. He passes through the lands of Angrod and Aegnor, and invites them to join him, thinking it will be an opportunity to smooth things over a bit. Angrod declines the invitation; he has no desire to be a guest of the Fëanoreans, subject to more of their disdain. So, we see that the insult about him being a tale-bearer still stings and he hasn't forgotten it. Aegnor, on the other hand, is excited to go on a trip with Fingon and accepts. When Fingon and Aegnor arrive in Himring, they are greeted happily by Maedhros. Hearing of Aegnor's interest in the Dwarvish craftsmanship, he invites him to stick around until the next caravan of dwarvish traders arrive. Fingon perhaps has to return to Hithlum, but Aegnor stays. Then Caranthir arrives with the Dwarves, and Maedhros urges him to be on his *best* behavior around the Son of Finarfin. Caranthir...tries. But he gets a little carried away in his role as the 'expert' at Dwarf stuff and acts obnoxious anyway.

Result: Telchar finds Aegnor delightful and gifts him Narsil. A sword of flame for the fell fire, etc. And no more than three cousins in the room at all times ;).
 
I like that story, Marie.

Let’s send Aredhel along too. It’ll show her independence from Turgon (and his irritation that she’s still friends with any Feanorian) and have her go off alone to visit Himlad.
 
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