Session 4.07 - Overarching Storylines, Continued

Ah, our Balrog restriction is only that no balrogs may appear in battle against elves without a named elf dying. So, we can certainly have Gothmog present, in a prevent-the-troops-from-fleeing-back-to-Angband capacity, especially if the elves never even see him.

Also, it's possible that Morgoth gave some instruction about the balrogs not engaging the Noldor in his absence (he sees them as necessary for the Valinor fight, not the Noldor fight at all), and Gothmog interprets this order as 'got it, orcs only.'
 
Ah, our Balrog restriction is only that no balrogs may appear in battle against elves without a named elf dying. So, we can certainly have Gothmog present, in a prevent-the-troops-from-fleeing-back-to-Angband capacity, especially if the elves never even see him.

Also, it's possible that Morgoth gave some instruction about the balrogs not engaging the Noldor in his absence (he sees them as necessary for the Valinor fight, not the Noldor fight at all), and Gothmog interprets this order as 'got it, orcs only.'
That’s what I was thinking of. He’s only there to keep the Orcs from fleeing.
 
Last edited:
That would also be nice to explain why the orcs are almost always losing despite of greater numbers, that they are forced and driven to battle by a greater terror and there possibly are things to them worse than death..
 
I think Orcs are definitely driven, though not only by fear. They're also filled with hate and bloodlust by Morgoth.

Also... maybe the Balrogs are cowards, like Morgoth, despite being terribly dangerous and powerful. I don't know whether that would be at all consistent with how they've been depicted so far, though.

Also, I'll back off of saying Gothmog should not start the Dagor Aglareb, if it's important for him to do something significant and we can't work in any other action for him this season.


Honestly I don't have a problem, necessarily, with Petty-Dwarves attacking Elves for no reason and getting killed in reaction, since they behave that way in War of the Jewels. However, this wouldn't fit well into our timeline without changing it. I made a comparison of the canonical story (Sindar fighting the Petty-Dwarves) and the proposed story (Feanorians fighting the Petty-Dwarves) to show how where the logic holes come up, because of how the situations differ.

The biggest problem, to my mind, is how the Feanorians then relate to the Blue Mountains Dwarves. In the canon story, the Sindar mistake the Petty-Dwarves for vicious animals, but have no trouble telling the Blue Mts. Dwarves are people since they operate openly, so they don't attack them. However, if the Noldor mistake the Petty-Dwarves for Orcs instead, they'd realize the Blue Mts. Dwarves are the same kind of Orcs, and surely would attack them.

index.php


I apologize that this is tiny and hard to read.

Edit: If the logic holes of this story can be overcome in a satisfying way, without anyone acting out of character, then my objections would be overcome.
 

Attachments

  • Elves vs. Petty-Dwarves.jpg
    Elves vs. Petty-Dwarves.jpg
    82.4 KB · Views: 1
Last edited:
How about we just cut out the story of Dwarf-hunting? Farther down the road, Mim will already have a bone to pick with the Elves for being left without a home.
 
Certainly, we can bring up that possibility with the Execs at the next session. If they do want to keep it, then I think we have to remove the 'mistake' piece of the story - Petty-dwarves commit an actual offense, and are then slaughtered by Fëanoreans.

I was thinking over the Houses of Gondolin, and it occurs to me that there is one Lord who has two Houses. Presumably, they didn't both start out as his (or else why would he have made them separate?), so perhaps we could use the lord of the other house (his brother?) as a 'and he was never seen again' elf. We'd have to have time to establish the Houses in Nevrast to introduce him, but that might make him seem less like an extraneous tacked-on nobody if he leaves an entire House leaderless by his capture. Penlod isn't an elf we know much about (he was tall, he died in the Fall of Gondolin, and his Houses were the House of the Pillar and the House of the Tower of Snow). It isn't suggested anywhere that he had a brother...but we could give him one.

Of course, at this point, we've now suggested that up to three of the Lords of Gondolin be made captive at some point, which is obviously excessive, so we might not want to use this idea.
 
Last edited:
Well, we could have Rog and Penlod’s brother captured together; they try to escape, but Penlod’s brother is killed. What to name him?
 
My suggestion is that a named Elf is captured and remains captive in Angband for the rest of the First Age. Not that they're killed. When we're talking about a living Hell, death also counts as an escape (as Maedhros would tell you).
 
I think we can have a number of lords of (future) Gondolin taken captive but it calls for a special event, like a minor military operation or skirmish.

Did we decide how this should happen? This is a period of relative peace.
Should a number of Elven lords make an attack on Angband, and fail?
Does Sauron have any werewolves left, and could he use them in a gerilla attack?
Or does it happen in Dagor Aglareb? I don't think so, it should be a clear victory, without such losses.

(I'm sorry if I try to cover ground that you've gone thorugh already, I'm not too happy about my level of envolvement this season.)
 
Rûmil? In lost tales Rumil was a prisoner of Angband where he learned all languages... but wait, our Rumil stayed 7n Aman didnt he? But we could give that role to another Elf... would also be nice to have a good character left in Angband to whose point of view one could return on and off...
 
I think we can have a number of lords of (future) Gondolin taken captive but it calls for a special event, like a minor military operation or skirmish.

Did we decide how this should happen? This is a period of relative peace.
Should a number of Elven lords make an attack on Angband, and fail?
Does Sauron have any werewolves left, and could he use them in a gerilla attack?
Or does it happen in Dagor Aglareb? I don't think so, it should be a clear victory, without such losses.

(I'm sorry if I try to cover ground that you've gone thorugh already, I'm not too happy about my level of envolvement this season.)
We still haven’t figured all the bugs regarding the order of events. I myself have been in favor of having the Ban on Quenya and Noldor culture occur before the Dagor Aglareb.
 
We still haven’t figured all the bugs regarding the order of events. I myself have been in favor of having the Ban on Quenya and Noldor culture occur before the Dagor Aglareb.
Ok but what we need is some sort of military event before the Dagor Aglareb. We’re talking about four (? Rog, Ecthelion, Orodreth and the brother of Penlod?) lords of the Noldor taken captive in a single event, right? That’s a massive loss.

Could we connect it to the Dagor Aglareb somehow? Maybe it all begins with these four taken captive, and they’re interrogated to reveal secrets about the elven defence. The Enemies believe they will win big but three of the captives escape and alert the Noldor who crush the attacking orc army, which fails to surprise.
 
Ok but what we need is some sort of military event before the Dagor Aglareb. We’re talking about four (? Rog, Ecthelion, Orodreth and the brother of Penlod?) lords of the Noldor taken captive in a single event, right? That’s a massive loss.

Could we connect it to the Dagor Aglareb somehow? Maybe it all begins with these four taken captive, and they’re interrogated to reveal secrets about the elven defence. The Enemies believe they will win big but three of the captives escape and alert the Noldor who crush the attacking orc army, which fails to surprise.
Maybe not Ecthelion, maybe we just need three: Orodreth, Rog and Penlod’s brother?
 
They could be captured in separate skirmishes that mostly happen before Dagor Aglareb. Or after Dagor Aglareb would work too, right?

And I'd rather not include Ecthelion. The fewer Elves actually get out of Angband alive, the more unusual we can make it seem that they got out at all.
 
Skirmishes, maybe - or maybe not: the Enemy is really weak at this time, the Sun is up and his forces have been decimated. A skirmish that leads to three Noldor lords being captured is a huge success. The situation doesn’t really allow for that. Right after the Dagor Aglareb we have almost the same situation. Besides, the bad things that happen this season happen between the elves, mostly (or in Hildorien). It’s probably the season in which the Enemy is the weakest (but not necessarily least successful). The bad guys either work with what they learn when spying (Sauron), fail when attacking, or realise that they have to change the game somehow (developing dragons for example, or corrupt Men). Brutal attacks come later, as we know.
So the bad guys taking three lords captive doesn’t fit this season’s story. Unless it’s framed in a way that turns into a failure, to the greater part. That’s why I suggest that the captives manage to escape in time to warn Fingolfin that the Enemy is about to attack. It would frame the skirmish and the elves being taken in a way that works, I believe.
 
Yes, the catch-and-release program is predicated on the idea that the villains are...able to catch some elves in the first place!

We have shown Balrogs hunting elves in the past, and we've shown Sauron capturing elves at Cuivienen. What has changed is that...now the elves have armies! So, it becomes not a hunting expedition, but rather a military endeavor to take elves captive.

Sauron has several servants open to him. He has Thuringwethil and the winged vampires. They'd be good at swooping in and snatching an elf (as long as there aren't any eagles around....) Some could be shot down with arrows, but they can still get away with their 'prizes'. He has Tevildo and his cats. They too are good at stealth and could orchestrate a sneak attack, particularly while the elves are out and about exploring Beleriand. He has Draugluin and the (remaining) werewolves. These are probably the least helpful, as the Noldor have demonstrated that they are quite good at fighting them head-on. And, I suppose there are still the spiders, but they're probably not going to be taking orders from Sauron, and any elves that wander into Nan Dungortheb are going to be....eaten.

A reminder that the 'escape' of the elves is orchestrated, after Sauron has had the opportunity to question them. He wants them to go free. They don't realize this, maybe, but....it's okay if the audience figures out that there is something fishy about the 'escape'. Like Gollum's later 'escape' from Mordor.
 
Yes, the catch-and-release program is predicated on the idea that the villains are...able to catch some elves in the first place!

We have shown Balrogs hunting elves in the past, and we've shown Sauron capturing elves at Cuivienen. What has changed is that...now the elves have armies! So, it becomes not a hunting expedition, but rather a military endeavor to take elves captive.

Sauron has several servants open to him. He has Thuringwethil and the winged vampires. They'd be good at swooping in and snatching an elf (as long as there aren't any eagles around....) Some could be shot down with arrows, but they can still get away with their 'prizes'. He has Tevildo and his cats. They too are good at stealth and could orchestrate a sneak attack, particularly while the elves are out and about exploring Beleriand. He has Draugluin and the (remaining) werewolves. These are probably the least helpful, as the Noldor have demonstrated that they are quite good at fighting them head-on. And, I suppose there are still the spiders, but they're probably not going to be taking orders from Sauron, and any elves that wander into Nan Dungortheb are going to be....eaten.

A reminder that the 'escape' of the elves is orchestrated, after Sauron has had the opportunity to question them. He wants them to go free. They don't realize this, maybe, but....it's okay if the audience figures out that there is something fishy about the 'escape'. Like Gollum's later 'escape' from Mordor.
Maybe he personally leads a raid at one point or another?

Tactics: Telvido and cats herd Elves toward Thurwingwethil or Sauron?
 
If we wanted to, the 'escape from Angband' storyline could be a season-long arc.

So, very early in the Season (before the Mereth Aderthad?), when the Noldor are first starting to explore Beleriand, a group is captured by Sauron (somehow).

Then, we see them in Angband, locked in cells, being taken away for 'questioning' one at a time...some come back, others do not. Perhaps Rog, who has been a faceless character until now, becomes our point-of-view character for the captive Noldor. He's trying to encourage those in cells near him, trying to find out what happens when the elves are taken away, etc. And then he finds a *tool*, which he is able to use to weaken his cage. He works on it for a long time, and then eventually the bars are just for show; he can slip out at will. He visits the other captive elves, passes along news to them, and is trying to figure out a way out (Angband is an underground maze, and it's likely full of orcs, so he can't exactly explore at will). Then, one day, the orcs throw this giant party and all get outrageously drunk and pass out. Rog realizes that now is his chance, so he frees the other captives he has found (not all of them, alas poor Penlod's brother!) and they make a break for it. No one stops them on the way out, and they just have to get by the guards at the gate (they kill them). Then, they make their way to the other Noldor, bringing news from Angband. (Either news of the Dagor Aglareb, or news of a new terror being bred by Morgoth, aka Glaurung (though they've only heard rumor, not seen him themselves)).

Optional: a scene showing that Sauron was the one who arranged for that tool to be left in Rog's cell in the first place, and that he was the one who gave all the orcs an outrageous amount of alcohol (what do they brew in Angband?) The 'daring escape' was a case of 'they let us go' all along.

Of course, if we want Rog to go to Gondolin, they have to get out early enough for that to work. Perhaps Penlod never loses hope that his brother might still be alive and coming back some day, and so he creates an entire House just for him, and rules it 'temporarily' in his brother's absence. But...the brother never returns. And so Penlod is lord of two Houses of Gondolin.
 
A reminder that the 'escape' of the elves is orchestrated
That is only the case for Elves under the Spell of Bottomless Dread. Elves who aren't reduced to nearly-will-less slaves of Morgoth have to escape on their own without 'help'. Either it's a genuine escape, or they're let out after they have (practically) no remaining free-will.

When I suggested skirmishes, I meant that the captives could be taken in separate events, rather than all 3 at once. But maybe we don't have to finish this arc in Season 4. The mass capture of Elves for the Spell of Bottomless Dread began in ernest after the Dagor Aglareb, which probably means most of it would be going on in Season 5. On the other hand it's better if the captives who escape for real, without being broken, return home before the bespelled victims start causing problems for Elvenland.

Gwindor's escape is described in a little detail. He got a shiv of some kind from a slave-smith, and when he was on a work-gang he attacked the guards and got away (but lost a hand). Then he hid in the tunnels and found one that went south, and dug his way out (with the shiv, presumably) somewhere in Anfauglith or Taur-nu-Fuin. That sort of escape seems easier when there are enough slaves to have work-gangs at all, and to dig secret tunnels that go places they shouldn't.

Rog can also get to Gondolin during the retreat from the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, and be one of Fingon and Fingolfin's lords before then. I think that's the better option than being Turgon's vassal from the start.
 
Back
Top