From poem evidence, does Earendil become the Morning Star?

Flammifer

Flammifer

Well-Known Member
Can we deduce, from evidence at hand when coming to the poem for the first time, that Earendil, his ship, and the Silmaril, become the Morning Star, or the planet Venus?

The class wondered.

Well, we should be able to make a strong deduction from general knowledge, and the evidence we have.

  • Elbereth laid on Earendil the doom, “to sail the shoreless skies and come behind the Sun and light of Moon”.
In Plato’s cosmology, of ‘celestial spheres’, or ‘celestial orbs’, the order of the orbs (in distance from Earth) is: Moon, Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Firmament. Thus, the planets come ‘behind’ the Sun and light of Moon. Therefore, we should start to conjecture that Earendil is becoming a planet.

  • “his wings him bore, a wandering light,”
That phrase, ‘a wandering light,’ should confirm that Earendil has become a planet. We know that the word, “planet”, comes from Greek, “planetes asteres”, (wandering stars), or, just “Planetai”, (wanderers).

  • “A distant flame before the Sun, a wonder ere the waking dawn”
Which planet? Well, that certainly sounds like the Morning Star, or Venus in its aspect as the Morning Star.

  • “an orbed star”
Further confirmation, if we needed any, that Earendil has become a planet in a celestial sphere, or orb. Earendil has now been described as a “wandering light”, and “an orbed star”. That is a “planete astere” (wandering star), wandering in its path against the backdrop of the fixed stars of the Firmament, but constrained (in accordance with ‘the music of the spheres’) to an invariant path within its orb, or celestial sphere.

  • “for ever still a herald”
“Herald”, should again suggest the Morning Star, which is the herald of the coming dawn, and the rising Sun.

  • “The Flammifer of Westernesse”
“Flammifer”, (flame-bearer), should remind us of “Lucifer”, (light-bearer). Lucifer is the name of the Morning Star in Latin. This is the strongest connection yet, to convince us that Earendil has become the Morning Star, the planet Venus.


Although we have no direct confirmation from the poem that Earendil, his ship, and the Silmaril have become the planet Venus and the Morning Star, there are enough connected references for us to make a very strong deduction that this is so. Thus, we can confidently name Earendil’s ship, “Tindomiel”, which is Quenya for 'Morning Star'.
 
when I listened to the latest class, I had to go and search my Kindle version for mentions of Eärendil. As someone pointed out, we first hear the name in the prose story Strider tells on Weathertop, but there he is mentioned as the person whom Elwing, grandaughter of Lúthien & Beren, married, and who became the father of the Kings of Númenor. After Elrond name-drops in the Council, the next mention is in Lothlorien, where he is referred to as "the Evening Star". Of course, we know that Venus can be both evening and morning star, but it's an interesting distinction: is he the Evening Star for the Elves, who are fading, and the Morning Star for Men, who are ascending?
 
Hi Kate,

Venus is both the morning star and the evening star. This became known to the Greeks late in the classical Greek period (credited to Pythagoras, about 550 BC). However, although the Greeks and the Romans knew that the morning and evening stars were the same planet, they continued to call each aspect by a different name, associated with a different god or demi-god: 'Phosphoros' & 'Hesperus' in Greek, 'Lucifer' & 'Vespers' in Latin.

In the 'Earendil was a mariner' poem, I think that Earendil is referenced to the Morning Star. Later, as you say, in Lothlorien, we have, "Earendil, the Evening Star, most beloved of the elves, shone clear above," indicating that the Elves knew that the morning star and the evening star were the same planet, although, they too called the morning star and the evening star by two different names (though we don't know this when reading the Earendil poem for the first time): 'Undomiel', as in 'Arwen Undomiel' (Arwen Evenstar), is the evening star, and 'Tindomiel', as in the name of Elros' daughter (mentioned somewhere in the legendarium - I forget where), is the morning star.

Thus far, in the read through, we have only seen Earendil as the morning star. It will be interesting to see how he is represented, with what connections, when the evening star is referenced, later in the book.
 
Flammifer said:
Hi Kate,

Venus is both the morning star and the evening star. This became known to the Greeks late in the classical Greek period (credited to Pythagoras, about 550 BC). However, although the Greeks and the Romans knew that the morning and evening stars were the same planet, they continued to call each aspect by a different name, associated with a different god or demi-god: 'Phosphoros' & 'Hesperus' in Greek, 'Lucifer' & 'Vespers' in Latin.

In the 'Earendil was a mariner' poem, I think that Earendil is referenced to the Morning Star. Later, as you say, in Lothlorien, we have, "Earendil, the Evening Star, most beloved of the elves, shone clear above," indicating that the Elves knew that the morning star and the evening star were the same planet, although, they too called the morning star and the evening star by two different names (though we don't know this when reading the Earendil poem for the first time): 'Undomiel', as in 'Arwen Undomiel' (Arwen Evenstar), is the evening star, and 'Tindomiel', as in the name of Elros' daughter (mentioned somewhere in the legendarium - I forget where), is the morning star.

Thus far, in the read through, we have only seen Earendil as the morning star. It will be interesting to see how he is represented, with what connections, when the evening star is referenced, later in the book.
Click to expand...

I am aware of the fact that Evening = Morning Star in both Middle-earth and the Primary World (where it is Venus). I just find it interesting that Galadriel uses Evening Star. And there's no reference to the morning star in particular anywhere in LOTR (according to my Kindle search). Just a niggling wonderment over Tolkien's choice in this tale.
 
Hi Kate,

There is very little further reference to Earendil at all in TLOTR. I can only remember the reference at the mirror of Galadriel that you mentioned, the reference when Galadriel gives Frodo the star glass at the farewell to Lorien, the reference when Frodo wields the star glass against Shelob, and (perhaps) the distant star of hope that Sam sees in Mordor (there is no real indication that this is the star of Earendil, though it might be).

Then, there are two references in appendix A.

(If anyone can find other references to Earendil please do.)

The reference at the Mirror of Galadriel, references the evening star. When Frodo deploys the star glass against Shelob, it is, "as though Earendil had himself come down from the high sunset paths with the Silmaril upon his brow", which seems to reference the evening star. The star Sam sees in Mordor is an evening star (though not definitively Earendil's star). The second reference in appendix A states that when the Edain sailed to Elenna, they were guided by the Star of Earendil. As they were sailing west, this implies that Earendil's star was in the evening star aspect.

Earendil is never again associated with the morning star after Bilbo's poem, and three (possibly four) times associated with the evening star.

I agree with you that this switch from associating Earendil's star with the morning star in Bilbo's poem, to associating it with the evening star in future references is interesting.

I am not at all sure what this might mean. Perhaps others have some theories?
 
I was not familiar with Plato's celestial ordering, so thanks for sharing that! In the Divine Comedy, if I recall correctly, Dante orders them Earth, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Sun, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn in Paradisio - preserving accurate distances, but using an earth-centric rather than heliocentric model of the solar system.

Frodo's version of the walking song has 'take the hidden paths that run, West of the Moon, East of the Sun.' But of course a first-time reader hasn't gotten to that yet in the book.

Theologically, the morning star is relevant as a precursor to the Sun - so, John the Baptist heralding the appearance of Christ, etc. Cynewulf's Earendel poem no doubt is about the morning star rather than the evening star! The evening star heralds nightfall, which is symbolically nothing good :p. I realize elves love twilight, but specifically because it isn't full night ;)
 
Flammifer said:
Hi Kate,

Venus is both the morning star and the evening star. This became known to the Greeks late in the classical Greek period (credited to Pythagoras, about 550 BC). However, although the Greeks and the Romans knew that the morning and evening stars were the same planet, they continued to call each aspect by a different name, associated with a different god or demi-god: 'Phosphoros' & 'Hesperus' in Greek, 'Lucifer' & 'Vespers' in Latin.

In the 'Earendil was a mariner' poem, I think that Earendil is referenced to the Morning Star. Later, as you say, in Lothlorien, we have, "Earendil, the Evening Star, most beloved of the elves, shone clear above," indicating that the Elves knew that the morning star and the evening star were the same planet, although, they too called the morning star and the evening star by two different names (though we don't know this when reading the Earendil poem for the first time): 'Undomiel', as in 'Arwen Undomiel' (Arwen Evenstar), is the evening star, and 'Tindomiel', as in the name of Elros' daughter (mentioned somewhere in the legendarium - I forget where), is the morning star.

Thus far, in the read through, we have only seen Earendil as the morning star. It will be interesting to see how he is represented, with what connections, when the evening star is referenced, later in the book.
Click to expand...
'Tindomiel' is named in Unfinished Tales (also published by Christopher after JRRT's death; does that call into question its reliability as a canonical source?)
It has two potential translations: Morning Star, and Daughter of Twilight; the first appears to be given more weight than the second.

It's interesting that the daughter of Elros, the brother who chose mortality, is given the epithet Tindomiel, while the daughter of Elrond (the brother who chose immortality, but fading) is given the epithet of Undomiel.

This appears to fall into the pattern of Elves fading into the past and Men being the future of Middle-Earth; and Elves associated with the West (and therefore evening), with Men associated more with the East (and therefore morning.)

The second translation gives the possibility that both brothers gave their daughters epithets to honour their great-grandmother: both could be easily associated with Tinuviel, meaning Daughter of (Starry) Twilight.
 
MithLuin said:
I was not familiar with Plato's celestial ordering, so thanks for sharing that! In the Divine Comedy, if I recall correctly, Dante orders them Earth, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Sun, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn in Paradisio - preserving accurate distances, but using an earth-centric rather than heliocentric model of the solar system.

Frodo's version of the walking song has 'take the hidden paths that run, West of the Moon, East of the Sun.' But of course a first-time reader hasn't gotten to that yet in the book.

Theologically, the morning star is relevant as a precursor to the Sun - so, John the Baptist heralding the appearance of Christ, etc. Cynewulf's Earendel poem no doubt is about the morning star rather than the evening star! The evening star heralds nightfall, which is symbolically nothing good :p. I realize elves love twilight, but specifically because it isn't full night ;)
Click to expand...

Hi Mithluin,

The order of the spheres in Dante is that devised by Ptolemy in circa 150 AD. This order allowed Ptolemy to construct a mathematical model of the spheres which better fit the observed path of the planets than did Plato's model. However, Ptolemy's work was unknown in the Europe of the Middle Ages until about 1250 AD, whereas Plato's model was well known across Europe through the earlier Medieval times.

By the time Dante wrote the 'Divine Comedy', (between 1308 and 1320), Ptolemy's order of the spheres was generally accepted, at least by the educated, in Western Europe.
 
Last edited:
Anthony Lawther said:
'Tindomiel' is named in Unfinished Tales (also published by Christopher after JRRT's death; does that call into question its reliability as a canonical source?)
It has two potential translations: Morning Star, and Daughter of Twilight; the first appears to be given more weight than the second.

It's interesting that the daughter of Elros, the brother who chose mortality, is given the epithet Tindomiel, while the daughter of Elrond (the brother who chose immortality, but fading) is given the epithet of Undomiel.

This appears to fall into the pattern of Elves fading into the past and Men being the future of Middle-Earth; and Elves associated with the West (and therefore evening), with Men associated more with the East (and therefore morning.)

The second translation gives the possibility that both brothers gave their daughters epithets to honour their great-grandmother: both could be easily associated with Tinuviel, meaning Daughter of (Starry) Twilight.
Click to expand...

Hi Anthony,

I think that Tolkien's Elvish linguistics from non-published sources is likely to be more reliable than most content from those. I also take confirmation from 'Undomiel' and from 'Tinuviel', (both in TLOTR) that 'Tindomiel' is the correct Quenya name for the morning star. A better student of Tolkien's elvish than I may be able to shed extra light upon this word.
 
Gorhendad The Old said:
On the question of whether or not Sam's Star is Earendil (I'm firmly in the 'not' camp)
Click to expand...
Just to check, did you miss the citation of the Appendix Footnote which links Sam's sighting of the star to Eärendil? I think it was also referenced in a more recent discussion on the Tolkien Society Facebook page. In my edition it's footnote #5 in Appendix A.I.(i).

Someone tried to weasel out of that one by suggesting that the footnote was added in by an overzealous editor! Given how long JRRT laboured over the Appendices, which IIRC was most of the reason for RotK being delayed, I would imagine he would not countenance such a thing for a moment.
 
Hi Gorthendad and NotACat,

Interesting question about whether Sam's star was Venus, Earendil, the Silmaril.

I had never noticed that Appendix footnote, NotACat. (Which in my edition I think is footnote #4 [not #5] in Appendix A, I, (i).)

The footnote follows this sentence, "Earendil was not permitted to return to mortal lands, and his ship bearing the silmaril was set to sail in the heavens as a star, and a sign of hope to the dwellers in Middle-earth oppressed by the Great Enemy or his servants."

The footnote gives references to page numbers in Volumes I, II, and III. The last page number is III 199, which, in my edition (printed in Great Britain in 1962 - ninth impression) is the page which contains Sam's star.

I think that this footnote leads me to conclude that 'Sam's star' IS Earendil and the Silmaril.

Thanks, NotACat!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top