Two Riddle Poems?

Flammifer

Well-Known Member
There are two riddle poems in ‘The Council of Elrond’. Boromir’s Dream poem, and Bilbo’s ‘All that is gold does not glitter’ poem. Sort of akin to the poetic riddles Bilbo and Gollum use to contest the Riddle Game. They are separated by only about a page of text.

Why are these two poems juxtaposed?

Now, it could be that Tolkien so loved Bilbo’s poem that he wanted to get it in twice, with no change from its appearance in the ‘Prancing Pony’ other than swapping a colon for a comma in line 7? Or he might have felt it was a perfect way to showcase Bilbo at this point. Perhaps it seemed like an ideal ‘covering letter’ preceding Aragorn’s imminent recitation of his c.v.? Or, could it be that these two poems are connected in some more fundamental way?

How are these two poems similar? How are they different? How are they related?

The Dream poem contains an instruction, ‘Seek’, and then 8 riddles for Boromir (and perhaps some subsidiary questions).

  1. What is the Sword that was broken?
  2. What and where is Imladris?
  3. What is meant by ‘counsels’?
  4. What is meant by ‘Morgul-spells’?
  5. What could be the ‘token’?
  6. What is meant by ‘Doom’
    1. And by ‘near at hand’?
  7. What is ‘Isildur’s Bane’?
    1. And what is meant by ‘waken’?
  8. Who, or what is ‘the Halfling’?
    1. And what does it mean that he will ‘stand forth’?
Bilbo’s poem also contains 8 riddles (and perhaps some subsidiary questions).

  1. What is gold that does not glitter?
  2. Who are those who wander, but are not lost?
  3. What is old and strong that does not wither?
  4. What are the deep roots not reached by frost?
  5. From which ashes shall fire be woken?
    1. And which fire?
  6. What light, from shadows shall spring?
    1. And from which shadows?
  7. What is the blade that was broken?
    1. And how shall it be renewed?
  8. Which crownless again shall be king?
Now, at first glance, Boromir is confronted with 8 different riddles, all referring to different things in his dream poem, whereas all 8 riddles in Bilbo’s poem have the same answer: ‘Aragorn’ (except for the one riddle, the answer to which is ‘Narsil’).

Could it be though that, unbeknownst to Bilbo, his poem could also have 8 different answers?

  1. The most important gold in TLOTR is the Ring, which should not glitter, in the minds of Elves, Dwarves, and Men, but burn.
  2. Those who wander are the High Elves, established as such by the song to Elbereth, way back in ‘Three is Company’, “O light to us that wander here Amid the world of woven trees!” The High Elves wander through Middle Earth, but they are not lost. They know the way home. They just don’t know when they will take it. Also, Gandalf, known as ‘Mithrandir’, the Grey Wanderer, who, unlike others in his Order, is not lost. Also, Earendil, “a wandering light”, who also wanders, but knows exactly where he is, as he is an ‘orbed star’ constrained by the music of the spheres to a fixed path.
  3. Strength and Courage as shown by heroes of yore, are old and strong, and do not wither.
  4. Faith and Hope are deep roots not reached by the frosts of Thangorodrim.
  5. From the ashes of Sauron’s overweening Pride and careless Arrogance, the fires of Mt. Doom shall be woken.
  6. Light springing from shadows could be Hobbits emerging from the Shire, could be the light of Earendil, from both the star, and Galadriel’s glass, sending light into dark places, or it could be Providence, nudging success into the darkest and most disastrous moments.
  7. The sword is Narsil/Anduril.
  8. The crownless is Aragorn.
So, could Bilbo’s poem be a more elaborate riddle than he thinks, and a prophecy like Boromir’s dream poem? In this case, a prophecy about all the ingredients necessary for victory in the War of the Ring, and an elaboration on the Dream poem?
 
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I love the idea.

But do you think perhaps you are stretching a bit? Your eight riddle answers for Bilbo's poem start strong, but then weaken around the halfway point. Nevertheless, I do think there is something here. Just not sure exactly what...
 
Hi Jim,

It certainly is possible that I might be stretching a bit. I am working off the suspicion that these two poems, both being riddle poems, and being so closely juxtaposed, should probably be connected or related in some way. This suspicion is re-inforced because we have already had the 'All that is gold does not glitter' poem once before, and I see no real good reason to repeat it here in the Council of Elrond, if there is not some connection between it and the Dream poem. (I see no real good reason for Aragorn to recite his lengthy c.v. here either, and think it is quite out of character for Aragorn to do so. But that is a different subject).

So, I started with the thought that these two poems might well be connected, and then tried to find a possible connection. The idea that I came up with sort of works, I think. But, there certainly might be other ways to relate the two poems that I have not thought of.

I would be interested in any other suggestions.
 
The Ring does glitter, though. "And behold! when he washed the mud away, there in his hand lay a beautiful golden ring; and it shone and glittered in the sun, so that his heart was glad." (From The Shadow of the Past, talking about Deagol finding the Ring.)

Also, given the context, I think "those who wander" would be the Rangers.

This suspicion is re-inforced because we have already had the 'All that is gold does not glitter' poem once before, and I see no real good reason to repeat it here in the Council of Elrond, if there is not some connection between it and the Dream poem. (I see no real good reason for Aragorn to recite his lengthy c.v. here either, and think it is quite out of character for Aragorn to do so. But that is a different subject).

Are they different subjects? You have a poem about Aragorn just before a passage about Aragorn. It seems to me like the subjects are very closely related, and finding out the "why" of one will most likely yield the "why" of the other.
 
Hi JJ48,

Yes the Ring certainly does glitter physically. It should not, however, glitter spiritually (though, no doubt it does for some).

Certainly Aragorn (and perhaps other Rangers) are who Bilbo consciously means by wanderers in the line.

I have several questions about this section. One question is about whether there is some connection between the two poems, and what it might be. Then, I think it is in character for Bilbo to pop up and defend/support Aragorn against Boromir's doubts. However, it is not generally in Aragorn's character to recite his c.v. Laconic and enigmatic would be more likely for Strider, I would have thought.

What are your thoughts on the two riddle poems? Connected? How?
 
Yes the Ring certainly does glitter physically. It should not, however, glitter spiritually (though, no doubt it does for some).

Perhaps. I'm just pointing out that the poem only talks about what gold does or does not do; not what it should or should not do.

What are your thoughts on the two riddle poems? Connected? How?

I don't really get poetry, so I'll leave this for others. I don't really see a connection between the two.

However, it is not generally in Aragorn's character to recite his c.v. Laconic and enigmatic would be more likely for Strider, I would have thought.

Eh, perhaps it's not usual for Strider, but then, this isn't a usual situation. If Aragorn sat down next to Boromir at the Prancing Pony and started going off like this, that would be quite odd; but that's not what's happening here. This is a council of all the Free Peoples to deem great doom. It is important for everyone to know what is at stake, and important for Gondor to know that others are fighting, even if not on the same front.
 
Eh, perhaps it's not usual for Strider, but then, this isn't a usual situation. If Aragorn sat down next to Boromir at the Prancing Pony and started going off like this, that would be quite odd; but that's not what's happening here. This is a council of all the Free Peoples to deem great doom. It is important for everyone to know what is at stake, and important for Gondor to know that others are fighting, even if not on the same front.

I agree with JJ48.

Additionally, in some respects, for Aragorn this is like an initial job interview, with Boromir being the HR representative: Boromir won't make the final decision, but a no from HR is a no from the organisation. Aragorn is explaining the apparent 'king' gap in his C.V. "I haven't been sitting idly at home; I've been working really hard to build my skills and understanding to be suitable for the role of King"

Keep in mind that this is not the first time that one from the line of Isildur has made claim to the throne of Gondor, and the rejected claim was from a ruling king.
 
The relationship of "gold" and "glitter" was covered in an earlier thread, where I had a contribution to make:
 
Yes, emphasis on the 'All' should indicate that some things that are gold do not glitter.

If there is a secondary meaning to the line (beyond Bilbo's intended reference to Aragorn [who may 'look foul but feel fair']), then the 'gold' referred to should be the Ring. It does glitter physically. It should not 'glitter' spiritually, however.
 
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