Why did Gandalf not contend with nor even question, challenge, or attempt to persuade Saruman to change direction?

Flammifer

Well-Known Member
Gandalf just says he disagrees with Saruman. “I have heard speeches of this kind before, but only in the mouths of emissaries sent from Mordor to deceive the ignorant. I cannot think you brought me so far only to weary my ears.” “Only one hand at a time can wield the One, and you know that well, so do not trouble to say we!” He states his own position, “But I would not give it, nay, I would not even give news of it to you, now that I learn your mind.” He makes no attempt to offer counter arguments or to persuade Saruman that he is going down the wrong track, or even to question Saruman as to why he is going down this track.. (Unless, “Have you others to offer?” is an invitation to Saruman to suggest other strategies.)

Why?

Later, after the Battle of the Hornburg, when Theoden and Gandalf converse with Saruman, Gandalf offers Saruman the chance to repent. He gives arguments as to why it would be wise for Saruman to repent. It almost worked. “For a second (Saruman) hesitated, and no one breathed.” But pride and hate conquered him and he refused.

So, even after Saruman had committed evil deeds, Gandalf was willing to urge him to repent and offer to let him go free without many conditions.

So, why no attempt to question or persuade Saruman earlier, when it is clear to Gandalf that Saruman is heading down a dangerous path, but has yet done little to act on those plans (as far as Gandalf knows).

Why does Gandalf seek to persuade Saruman to repent later, but not in the encounter related at the Council of Elrond?
 
I think it is because later Saruman's position has changed so much that he might be vulnerable to that line of attack.

We know, and Gandalf has put together, that Saruman considers himself to be on the rise at the point of the first conversation. "You're doing better than ever, but have you ever considered switching to what looks to you like the losing side?" is a hard sell.

At the later confrontation, "You've had your butt kicked and you're sinking fast, here's a lifeline" is a different matter altogether.
 
Hi amysrevenge,

You make a good point. On the other hand, when Gandalf first goes to Orthanc, Saruman may have contemplated treachery and evil, but has not yet committed any (as far as Gandalf knows).

Gandalf just seems to leap to the assumption that there is no turning back for Saruman at this point. Why wouldn't he say something like, "Hey Boss, what's got into you? Are you feeling OK? We can do better than ally with Sauron or imitate him. Surely we were sent here for a better plan than that?" Why not give Saruman the benefit of the doubt and try to talk him down?

Is the difference in Gandalf's first and second conversations with Saruman at Orthanc more to do with Gandalf's change in status from Grey to White, than with Saruman's change in fortunes?
 
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When it comes to the Ainur, repentance isn't really a thing. Morgoth only pretended to repent and took advantage of Manwe's benevolence to sow discord amongst the Noldor. Sauron only pretended to repent out of fear but was ultimately unwilling to receive the Valar's judgement and fled to other corners of Middle-Earth.
 
I think we may have to assume some personal history here that isn't really provable. That is, perhaps Gandalf has never convinced Saruman of anything, ever--no matter how minor, trivial, or mundane--even when Saruman was doing his job. If that's the case, then Gandalf might well assume it's simply not worth the effort.

I'm not wholly comfortable with that (admittedly, fan fictional) possibility, however, considering how "doing the right thing, even when there is no rational hope for success" is so lauded in Tolkien's works.

Perhaps Gandalf perceives that any pushback would be met with escalation from Saruman, and so would drive him further into the negative space he now occupies.
 
Hi Beech,

In consideration of your first point, Gandalf does assume it to be worth the effort to try to get Saruman to repent at their second meeting at Orthanc.

I like your second point better, but, it seems to me that Saruman was trying to persuade Gandalf. He might well have welcomed an exchange of arguments? (Thinking that that is exactly his game, and he is likely to win.) No real evidence that persuasion would be met with escalation by Saruman (though it might well be met by counter-arguments). What seems to escalate Saruman most in the exchange is perceived insolence from Gandalf.
 
Oh man, like Saruman has primed himself for a big argument, and Gandalf is like meh, whatever. Would drive Saruman mad. Hahaha
 
Yeah, that’s what I’m trying to get at. Saruman wants to persuade Gandalf to give him the ring, or to disclose its location. Failing that, he’s prepared to—and maybe even wants to—fight/argue for it. Gandalf, then, gives him nothing that he wants, and that’s a kind of victory, perhaps. (At least, it’s the nearest he can get to one, at the moment.)
 
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