Script Discussion S06E03

Could it be that his survival guilt and shame prevent him to "return home" to Brethil or to face anybody he knows and respects and is known by? That Beren considers humself in a state of disgrace for having fialed to prevent the band's death and then having failed to die along with them?

And so that he exiles himself into Doriath because there is nobody there (yet) whom Beren would be due to give account of his failure and whose good opinion on himself he does value and does not dare to lose? That Beren would rather be disrespected by people who would have disrespected him anyway than to face loosing the respect of his elders, both human and elven? That he would rather vanish then face himself disgraced publicly in the eyes of all that really matter to him?

Keep in mind that Beren has limited conversational partners during his time in Dorthonion this episode. He may speak to:
1) the orcs he is killing for revenge for his father's death (likely no more than one line directed to dying Gorgol)
2) his father's grave, as a stand-in for his dead father. Likely no more than a one minute speech revealing his mindset and decisions. His most significant dialogue in the entire episode. Will have to touch on the revenge, as well as explain Beren's decision to leave Dorthonion
3) the camp dog, which survived the massacre and follows him up to the Ered Gorgoroth (he can say farewell, a la Bill the Pony, revealing his intended path and destination to the audience)

Most of Beren's other interactions here will be hallucinations or visions, and those are the sequences where we intend to deal with his survivor's guilt etc. That will be in Nan Dungortheb or Melian's girdle, though, so too late to consider the Brethil angle.
 
Keep in mind that Beren has limited conversational partners during his time in Dorthonion this episode. He may speak to:
1) the orcs he is killing for revenge for his father's death (likely no more than one line directed to dying Gorgol)
2) his father's grave, as a stand-in for his dead father. Likely no more than a one minute speech revealing his mindset and decisions. His most significant dialogue in the entire episode. Will have to touch on the revenge, as well as explain Beren's decision to leave Dorthonion
3) the camp dog, which survived the massacre and follows him up to the Ered Gorgoroth (he can say farewell, a la Bill the Pony, revealing his intended path and destination to the audience)

Most of Beren's other interactions here will be hallucinations or visions, and those are the sequences where we intend to deal with his survivor's guilt etc. That will be in Nan Dungortheb or Melian's girdle, though, so too late to consider the Brethil angle.

Oh. He can well mention it to Luthien afterwards like: " I simply felt I could not face my mother or anyone. What would I tell them?"
Still it would give him a kind of a "rational" motivation not to head for places he is connected to (and somewhat lessen the impression that he is a complete idiot.)
And as you said, he needs topics to talk with Luthien about beyond her mere pretty eyes - important as they are.
 
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I have a question. So, before Beren comes to Doriath, he is supposed to have made a name for himself, right? Especially since Luthien does speak his praises before Thingol when they are first brought to his court.

So, What has he gained fame for in our adaptation?
 
I have a question. So, before Beren comes to Doriath, he is supposed to have made a name for himself, right? Especially since Luthien does speak his praises before Thingol when they are first brought to his court.

So, What has he gained fame for in our adaptation?

In Dorthonion, he was one of his father's outlaw band, of which he is the only surviving member. This small group of men were so successful at hindering Morgoth's efforts to control the region, that Sauron specifically designated a task force to destroy them.

After leaving Dorthonion, he crosses Ered Gorgoroth, which has never been done, and then crossed Nan Dungortheb, which has never been done without use of the east-west road. Then, he managed to pass through the Girdle of Melian against the ban of Thingol, which has never been done.
 
In Dorthonion, he was one of his father's outlaw band, of which he is the only surviving member. This small group of men were so successful at hindering Morgoth's efforts to control the region, that Sauron specifically designated a task force to destroy them.

After leaving Dorthonion, he crosses Ered Gorgoroth, which has never been done, and then crossed Nan Dungortheb, which has never been done without use of the east-west road. Then, he managed to pass through the Girdle of Melian against the ban of Thingol, which has never been done.

Ooh, alright. Thanks a lot!
 
After leaving Dorthonion, he crosses Ered Gorgoroth, which has never been done, and then crossed Nan Dungortheb, which has never been done without use of the east-west road. Then, he managed to pass through the Girdle of Melian against the ban of Thingol, which has never been done.

But those last deeds are recent, and nobody except for Beren himself, Luthien and maybe Daeron knows about them. So those elements are not yet part of Beren's general fame and as such not known to Thingol. It makes little sense for Luthien to refer to those in front of her father.
 
But those last deeds are recent, and nobody except for Beren himself, Luthien and maybe Daeron knows about them. So those elements are not yet part of Beren's general fame and as such not known to Thingol. It makes little sense for Luthien to refer to those in front of her father.

In the published text, she mentions his parentage, that he is a lord of Men, a mighty foe of Morgoth whose deeds have become song even among elves. so that needs to figured right? Like what deeds of his are known enough to the elves that they made songs about it already?

PS. Im very sorry if all this sounds weird especially since im just new to this and so i am wondering about it. I do not mean to sound questioning or overbearing. I am really sorry if it comes of like that by any chance.
 
In the published text, she mentions his parentage, that he is a lord of Men, a mighty foe of Morgoth whose deeds have become song even among elves. so that needs to figured right? Like what deeds of his are known enough to the elves that they made songs about it already?

Indeed in the texts it is mentioned that Morgoth himself put a price on Beren's head equal to that on the head of the High King of the Noldor Fingon - which makes Beren's fame quite a thing Beleriand-wide. In our story Beren's deeds before he leaves Dorhonion are greatly reduced, as such his great fame looks quite unsupported.
 
Indeed in the texts it is mentioned that Morgoth himself put a price on Beren's head equal to that on the head of the High King of the Noldor Fingon - which makes Beren's fame quite a thing Beleriand-wide. In our story Beren's deeds before he leaves Dorhonion are greatly reduced, as such his great fame looks quite unsupported.

or, as a counter, the songs made about his deeds are of the recent ones and are made by Luthien herself.

I mean, he must have told her something about his journey, right? So what she could be saying would end up being something like, deeds worthy of being woven into song (as she has done, herself).

If the scene is long, she could introduce him by singing a song about his deeds that she composed, but Thingol stops her midway, (kinda like how in the text he tells her that Beren should speak for himself).
 
or, as a counter, the songs made about his deeds are of the recent ones and are made by Luthien herself.

I mean, he must have told her something about his journey, right? So what she could be saying would end up being something like, deeds worthy of being woven into song (as she has done, herself).

If the scene is long, she could introduce him by singing a song about his deeds that she composed, but Thingol stops her midway, (kinda like how in the text he tells her that Beren should speak for himself).

This is likely a part of the approach we'll take, though the Elves likely do sing of that plucky band of humans still fighting the good fight beyond all hope and reason in Dorthonion. And here is the last surviving member of that ill-fated troop.

Finrod was present when Barahir's band and its mission statement were formed, so it is also likely that any songs would mention them by name, as did songs of Robin Hood and his Merry Men.
 
Right, the most significant deeds (ie, known Beleriand-wide) are the ones that were done during the Dagor Bragollach. So, when Barahir and his fighters arrived in the Fens of Serech to rescue Finrod and his army....that's the type of deed elves would sing about! And Beren was there, one of Barahir's band. The decision to go back to Dorthonion was a smaller, elite group - now, you can name everyone individually....including Beren son of Barahir.

We removed the price on Beren's head, because we wanted Beren to survive his time in Dorthonion. Sauron as written in Silm Film would absolutely not send an army of orcs out against one person. Thuringwethil would spy him out, set him up, and get him captured or killed as necessary. No price on the head required. That element of the story does not work with Thuringwethil as Sauron's lieutenant running the fiefdom of Dorthonion.

Even if Beren is hesitant to speak of his time in Nan Dungortheb, he is very clearly a mortal who crossed the Girdle, and that would be apparent to Lúthien, Daeron, Melian, Thingol, etc. He doesn't have to tell them that! Crossing Nan Dungortheb is likely something Lúthien will figure out in their time together before they appear in Thingol's court. I see no reason why she wouldn't include that in the list of Beren's feats, especially if it is news to the court. Start with the tales of renown they know, and then add to them with Beren's later accomplishments they have not yet heard about.
 
But those last deeds are recent, and nobody except for Beren himself, Luthien and maybe Daeron knows about them. So those elements are not yet part of Beren's general fame and as such not known to Thingol. It makes little sense for Luthien to refer to those in front of her father.
The Doriathrim could in theory have heard rumors about Barahirs band...
I do not know from whom exactly, but the oroginal text seems to suggest so, at last i always thought Berens deeds were widely known (they have done their business over several years according to the timeline)
 
The Doriathrim could in theory have heard rumors about Barahirs band...
I do not know from whom exactly, but the oroginal text seems to suggest so, at last i always thought Berens deeds were widely known (they have done their business over several years according to the timeline)

Yes, but there was time enough for the news to travel. In our version there is not. Thingol is quite reserved and full of mistrust towards the Second-Comers, he does not seem have any dyplomatic relations with Barahir & co. The only elves with whom Barahir's band seems to have had any contact are the Feanorians, not anyone Thingol will get any news from. Feanorians propably hear about the situation in Dorthonion through their spies and the orcs they fight. But isolationistic Doriath? There might be some elven messengers checking on the Brethil send from Doriath from time to time and hearing something from the humans there, but that not would be anything Thingol himself would care much to hear sung about.
 
Except if they have spies...
Like birds! If even the birds sung of it the elves would have been impressed...
Or the waters of the rivers, elves talk to such things too!
 
Except if they have spies...
Like birds! If even the birds sung of it the elves would have been impressed...
Or the waters of the rivers, elves talk to such things too!

Via Ered Gorgoroth and Nan Dungortheb? Seems unlikely to me.

Maybe from the Great Eagles?

But what are the trading relations of Doriath? Dwarves are in contact with the Feanorians and as fond of a good story as anybody. Travelling dwarves might sell their products at the borders of Doriath and exchange stories as well.
 
True! The dwarves would be good sources for the latest news, they are secretive about their own, but maybe very willing to talk about other people..
 
Via Ered Gorgoroth and Nan Dungortheb? Seems unlikely to me.

Maybe from the Great Eagles?

But what are the trading relations of Doriath? Dwarves are in contact with the Feanorians and as fond of a good story as anybody. Travelling dwarves might sell their products at the borders of Doriath and exchange stories as well.

Hhmm? But why? It is not a far distance...
Nan dungortheb might be evil, but i could still think birds might fly across it in a safe heigth... or at last around its fringes.
 
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Yes, but there was time enough for the news to travel. In our version there is not. Thingol is quite reserved and full of mistrust towards the Second-Comers, he does not seem have any dyplomatic relations with Barahir & co. The only elves with whom Barahir's band seems to have had any contact are the Feanorians, not anyone Thingol will get any news from. Feanorians propably hear about the situation in Dorthonion through their spies and the orcs they fight. But isolationistic Doriath? There might be some elven messengers checking on the Brethil send from Doriath from time to time and hearing something from the humans there, but that not would be anything Thingol himself would care much to hear sung about.

Is there a particular reason why Finrod wouldn't be singing their praises everywhere? He was there when Barahir's band rescued him and when their mission began. Minas Tirith doesn't fall until the end of E01, which is some time after the Dagor Bragollach, and communication between the outlaws and Finrod's people wouldn't be that difficult before Sauron/Thuringwethil put the screws on.
And Finrod is in communication with Doriath.

If we want to call attention to this, it can be brought up in the dinner scene at Minas Tirith in E01, and it could come up during Gil-galad's visit to Doriath if we really want to hit it with a hammer, but Luthien expressing knowledge of it would likely do the same job.
 
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