Inclusion of queer characters?

Kathrin said:
Maybe this has been mentioned already, but: Given we don't have any accounts of the blue istari that necessarily determine what form they took in ME (My opinion is that both their names and the descriptions of the Istari over all (as somewhat elder Men) could as well have been given by ppl who exclusively know Radagast, Saruman and Gandalf. (Also, Men could also refer to them simply looking mannish, not elvish or dwarvish) So I feel like casting the two blue wizards not necessarily as two men is not even explicitely canon-divergent, really.

(This is totally not in service of my Makar and Méassë conspiracy theory no sir xD) No, but kidding aside, I think this is a case where i wouldnt even speak of genderbending more than "not defaulting to male in absence of text that says otherwise"

And since this is a thread of inclusion of queer characters, i ofc could also see a blue istari with a not traditionally binary gender presentation as well, however they would present themselves in our world. Also to the discussion about relationships: It would be an option too to have a recognisably queer person that isn't instantly coupled up, especially if that person is a maia and has maybe set themselves clear boundaries on that subject.
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I don’t hate this in principle. Important to have queer characters who are complex characters not defined by their sexuality, so a Maia with an important role to say snd strong voice who is not in a relationship but also identifies as homosexual or bisexual or asexual is great. I would however have an issue if that character represent the only inclusion of a queer character in the entire show and they explicitly have no queer relationships.
 
Unless, you know, we decide otherwise. I think they are generally a romantic as well.

Regardless, it’d be great if our only non-heteronormative characters weren’t devoid of relationships is all
 
Rob Harding said:
I don’t hate this in principle. Important to have queer characters who are complex characters not defined by their sexuality, so a Maia with an important role to say snd strong voice who is not in a relationship but also identifies as homosexual or bisexual or asexual is great. I would however have an issue if that character represent the only inclusion of a queer character in the entire show and they explicitly have no queer relationships.
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Oh I totally agree! I only wanted to chime in on istari specifically, and that the two voiced opinions: an istar could be queer in some way and, istari do not necessarily have to be depicted in relationships like our other characters, are not mutually exclusive.

Also, another question is probably how much the whole Laws and Customs of the Eldar and associated Essays of Tolkien's have absolute authority on the worldbuilding, or if they depict the opinions of cultural mores that a loremaster in, say, gondolin or rivendell might ascribe to elves over all, or somewhere in between. Depending on where we land on this, this would give us more or less room to maneuvre in, where there might be a tension between the norm and a character's life, but not necessarily a hard-wired way elves mind's and hearts *are*. Also, not every realm in all of Ëa would have to culturally be exactly what a gondolindrim loremaster assumes they might be.

As to relationships, setting up relationships of the main characters presents itself rather seldom, because a lot of these stories are, beside the canon relationships, very busy with other things, and in the background often we do not think of those characters early enough to start thinking about what relationships to incorporate when and how, but i think in genereal there are many places where side characters are just living their lives and those lives need not all be normative all the time, agreed. Maybe it would make sense to try and anticipate characters in the future seasons who both have sufficient space in their story to add a relationship but who also are not such a minor character it essentially is one of those "blink and you miss it" things. So who might that be? This season, i can, besides extras, only think of Finrod's companions or Nargothrondrim characters that have somewhat prominent appearances or might appear again next season. Next season is the Nirnaeth season, opening up to a much larger cast of characters again.
 
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Kathrin said:
Also, another question is probably how much the whole Laws and Customs of the Eldar and associated Essays of Tolkien's have absolute authority on the worldbuilding, or if they depict the opinions of cultural mores that a loremaster in, say, gondolin or rivendell might ascribe to elves over all, or somewhere in between. Depending on where we land on this, this would give us more or less room to maneuvre in, where there might be a tension between the norm and a character's life, but not necessarily a hard-wired way elves mind's and hearts *are*. Also, not every realm in all of Ëa would have to culturally be exactly what a gondolindrim loremaster assumes they might be.
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Would a Gondolinian loremester write "Seldom is any tale told of deeds of lust among them"? - that looks like Bilbo's comment. The whole chapter seems written from a mortal perspective and a contrast describing what elves seem like when compared to humans - so it is descriptive, not prescriptive. Also elven procreation being far less a mess and far more balanced than the human one makes sense, as: - 1. elves are not fallen - 2. they are immortal; - 3. their culture does not depend on offspring; - 4. promiscuity leads not to an evolutionary advantage of having more and genetically more varied offsping among them - so it would not be a trait to be selected for.
 
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I'm definitely down for taking a Star Trek approach and really exploring the culture of elves to highlight their alien-ness now that we have many prominent mortal characters. Really ramping up how very different they are. Not for the better or worse, but simply different. Other side of a divide. Not painting them as an ideal or something mortals should strive to, but rather a very different type of creature altogether.

EDIT: That said, I don't think elves are purely procreationally driven when it comes to relationships. Certainly, there's an interesting idea to be had that a species only falls in love as a chemical ceremony that leads to children then the bond is kept to raise offspring but isn't necessarily deeply or primarily romantic (ala Vulcans). However, I don't think that is elves. I think they are similar to humans in so much as they experience love without a necessity for a desire for children. I think they can be romantically attracted without it being purely a species-survival urge. The fact that love exists as its own entity means I don't think we ought to preclude queer elves. Not ignoring the fact that queer people do also want children. Equally, even if the majority of the species fall in love TO have children, I'd then be interested in how queer elves DO fit into that cultural norm.
 
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Oh, absoltely! If we wish to include lgbtq characters i would advise to make sure these are not some sort of Aliens but very human!

On the other hand i'd strongly advise AGAINST following Star Trek as an example here... in Trek characters are lgbtq, but they are not characters at all but just widely profile-less shells for queer-stereotypes. One should avoid that at all costs and instead write characters who act and feel like people, not mere character-masks.
 
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Haerangil said:
Oh, absoltely! If we wish to include lgbtq characters i would advise to make sure these are not some sort of Aliens but very human!
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Yes, we don't want to make the ONLY inclusion of queer characters or characters who have differently formed romantic relationships is done to highlight their alienness. If anything, it'd be an interesting point IF we decided it isn't normal for elves to have that kind of romatic drive that maybe those elves who are homosexual find more in common in that one regard with mortals.
 
Could be. But in such societies single-men and women without a partner, who maybe seek the company of people of their own sex are always under silent suspicion.
 
Rob Harding said:
Yes, we don't want to make the ONLY inclusion of queer characters or characters who have differently formed romantic relationships is done to highlight their alienness. If anything, it'd be an interesting point IF we decided it isn't normal for elves to have that kind of romatic drive that maybe those elves who are homosexual find more in common in that one regard with mortals.
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Given that homosexuality is so low even in a so much sexualised society as ours currently is - how many homosexual humans could such an ever elf meet - you would have to make this a cultural thing like in Sparta where men were separated from women from about their 7th to abour 30th year of age - to increase its appearance.

Table 1. Sexual orientation among U.S. adults aged 18 and over, by sex and age group: United States, 2018

Gay/lesbian Straight Bisexual
Sexual orientation Number in thousands Percent (standard error) Number in thousands Percent (standard error) Number in thousands Percent (standard error)
Overall 3,955 1.6 (0.10) 233,360 97.0 (0.14) 3,143 1.3 (0.10)


France in the century had a population of ca 16 million. If we assume the percentages stable, then that would make ca 256 000 gay people in the whole of France. Few of them would ever meet another one in their life - I would assume.

While in Greece in the 5th century the population is estimated at a maximum of 3 millions. That would make 48 000 gay persons through the whole area.

How big were the human populations in the 1st or 2nd age in our stories? - I assume far less that those numbers? Whould elves even notice such a phenomenon among humans with any regularity?

Actually people who cannot see well without glasses seem more common than gay people in human populations https://www.nih.gov/news-events/new...-good-vision-14-million-are-visually-impaired - and as the general nourition and healthcare I assume to have been far worse in ancient ME that in our current times and cultures - we would more probably see a person with impaired vision (which would be a big and debilitating and as such a visible impairment in those times and cultures) that a gay one - who most probably would neither indentify as such nor be much recognisable as such in-story.
 
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Persons who are outside the norm of heterosexual relationships would certainly be considered "strange fated" even in Middle-earth.Or rather especially in Middle-earth given how traditional and conservative all societies JRRT painted are.
 
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Haerangil said:
williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu

Adult LGBT Population in the United States

williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu
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And here the percantange is once given as 1.7% - not much increase.

In the EU study they count gay and bi-sexual together - this is not much usable as a bisexual person can marry a person of the opposite sex without much of a problem - so the preference would not be visible from the outside in our cultures.

Haerangil said:
Persons who are outside the norm of heterosexual relationships would certainly be considered "strange fated" even in Middle-earth.Or rather especially in Middle-earth given how traditional and conservative all societies JRRT painted are.
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I assume few would have the spare time to really notice it themselves, most humans in acient times married for practical, less for romantical reasons. Most would stay unmarried if they could and would spend their time on other matters - like being the best hunter or something - and that would be the whole effect of it. Another matter are only male bands separated from their women folk for a long time, there I would expect an increase - given historical reports.
 
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Yeah we better make sure we get the ratios correct otherwise our show with trolls won’t be believable lol

In all seriousness, what I want is queer characters. How to incorporate those characters to have meaningful stories and identities beyond simply sexuality while at the same time not ignoring sexuality is important.
I’m less interested in stats from real world populaces to prove that those issues shouldn’t be present. Don’t care. Others might, but I’ll keep banging this drum.

The question isn’t why it matters (it does) the question is how to tell stories that are engaging and dramatic and matter and are not there simply to tick a box and play lip service or queerbait.

End of the day, we aren’t creating a pseudo-anthropological survey. We are creating drama. We want it to have a self contained world building logic but we can certainly veer from real world stats when it comes to certain topics. It’s been established early there is a desire to include queer characters. Let’s not keep arguing that.

Let’s discuss which characters have the flexibility to not be beholden to Tolkien’s canon or find space to create characters whole cloth who can be queer (which is itself an entire spectrum of identities encompassing a broad range of experiences).

Like Istari queerness. Like seeing elven or Maiar queereness. But want to make sure we don’t simply have it is as a ‘trait’ of the other. Star Trek (going back to this a analogy again) has made the mistake in the past of trying to speak to wider issues by using aliens as metaphors but in doing, actually just making those topics seem inherently alien. Not always but sometimes. Or it gives traits to aliens to set them apart that are now troubling (making aliens trans-identifying or polyamorous but not having humans with those identities and lives). So where can we have a broad scope of queer stories, notably among humans? And can any intersect?

I see no reason that Tolkien inspired stories have to be inherently cis-het any more than they have to be white-centric, other than from creators not wanting to make them so for whatever reason.

I’d be personally glad to see some consideration of relationships between the men in Barahir’s band, though it’d be important to make it clear they wasn’t any familiar connection between them.
That said, not sure I want a ‘kill your gays’ storyline.
 
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Rob Harding said:
The question isn’t why it matters (it does) the question is how to tell stories that are engaging and dramatic and matter and are not there simply to tick a box and play lip service or queerbait.
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My issue is - it matters today - not in a theoretic prehistory where people are busy surviving, fighting literal devils, dragons and vampires. Modern tales for modern issues - or show me a way in which it factually enhances an actual story.
 
It doesn’t need to factually enhance the story. It has to matter today as that’s when we are telling the story. The past literally doesn’t exists. Why does anyone fall in love? That’s why we’re are telling it. It needs to be good drama. I don’t know why you don’t want to tell epic romance stories. Are you suggesting homosexuality didn’t exist in ‘prehistoric’ groups? And regardless, even if it categorically exist in our real-world reality, it easily can here. We don’t need to argue for the inclusion of queer characters, it’s been said before that people involved want that. If 'it' doesn't matter in a world where people are busy 'surviving, fighting etc' then why include Melian and Thingol? Beren and Luthien? Arwen and Aragorn? Unless by 'it' you don't mean love but specifically homosexuality, as if that is an 'issue' or 'hot topic', and not, in fact, a valid aspect of lived experience that is worth presenting in drama.

It just feels like these stats are being presented to use our story to vindicate real-world gay erasure. That's maybe not what you are trying to say but that is how I am finding the argument comes across and what I am balking at and why I am getting passionate.
 
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Rob Harding said:
Are you suggesting homosexuality didn’t exist in ‘prehistoric’ groups?
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It mights, but most affected would not even be self-aware or have time enough to really notice.
That is not to say they would not engage in homosexual acts but 1. one does not need to be gay to do that - and 2. it would have little consequence for the society and go mostly unnoticed - if not done publicly as a means to dishour somone. But nobody would identify as LGBT or have same-sex families. What would be more visisble would be hermaphroditism or transgenderism imho.

Where you could get visible homosexuality in would be Numenor - there you have the population sizes, great agglomerations that are densly populated, port cities - assumably with "night life" - and plenty of nobles with much of spare time.
You could even make the one Numenorean queen Tar-Telperiën which stayed unmarried and gave the throne to her nephew lesbian and having a female lover - there it could fit. For the 1st age, I do not see its relevance.
 
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It’s relevance would be to tell those stories. Again, I think male fighters living in close quarters lends lots of time to developing relationships. Still sad we’ve not gone down the Mablung/Beleg angle but that case has been put to bed. It sounds in general (which I actually think works) that for many of our races we think queer identity and relationships may be harder to square with the dynamics we’ve built but that in actuality, far from othering it, we find a lot more freedom to explore those stories with out human characters.

I do like the Tar-Telperien suggestion. Though I’d want to be carefully, particularly with Numenor, that we aren’t inadvertently tying the the idea of this city being destroyed for its corruption as being someone apparent in the fact that it tolerates homosexuality. What I mean is, I want to steer clear of the misreadings of Sodom and Gamorrah in essence. I don’t have a problem with their being queer stories in Numenor but, again, let’s not have them be isolated to one group or locale and become a strange singularity.
 
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Rob Harding said:
I do like the Tar-Telperien suggestion. Though I’d want to be carefully, particularly with Numenor, that we aren’t inadvertently tying the the idea of this city being destroyed for its corruption as being someone apparent in the fact that it tolerates homosexuality. What I mean is, I want to steer clear of the misreadings of Sodom and Gamorrah in essence. I don’t have a problem with their being queer stories in Numenor but, again, let’s not have them be isolated to one group or locale and become a strange singularity.
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You will have always this kind of problems with explicit sexuality. It tends to overshadow other plot points. Imho this is why Tolkien was not much interested in it in-story.
Romantic love - yes - as it inspires poetry and great deeds, marriages - yes - as they build families and bloodlines - (or don't - if they fail), but sexuality for sexuality's sake he seems to have found boring in stories - or far too private and personal - if he had to let his own experiences with it inspire his writing...

If you do not like Numenor - then there is Gondor shortly before the king's line goes extinct... E.g. the last king before the stewards Eärnur "Eärnur did not inherit his father's wisdom; he delighted mainly in battle, and desired no wife. " Before him you had also Narmacil I.
 
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There's so little sex in Tolkien stories i find it difficult to emphasize.It is a private thing people just do not talk about, proto-catholic as they are. The Ainur are mostly not sexless but "sexlifeless"... yet there is Melian, the best known exception! And how physical are nature spirits like Bombadil and Goldberry?

I could see homosexuality in the first age... but realistically that'd most likely a broke back mountain scenario, or an all-sex warrior-bond scenario.

People have suspected several single-living partnerless characters in Middle-earth as closeted homosexuals...
Lady Haleth and Salgant are the two most common suspects i mentioned. I am sure it would have existed in some form, but how do we adress the issue in the sort of story we're telling?

I guess in the end you'll just have to come up with some good and believable story you wish to tell, and avoid the modern trap of projecting an lgbtq utopia... i am sure homosexuality did exist and was known in certain social circles but most likely was not very widely acceptable and lgbtqs characters life would not have been without certain conflicts.But maybe that could even be what makes an interesting story?
 
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